Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Montanus]

Well, Porte looked more human today, was clearly on the edge on Croix de Fer and couldn't pull more than 1k on the final climb.

 

[red_flanders]

Good to see everyone is now far too committed to their position for new evidence to move them.

Today's stage was flat out slow. Sky's domestiques rolled in way behind. The final climb was done at a glacial pace by Tour de France standards.

But we all know.

If Sky are slow I can't help but wonder why everyone else is so much slower. They don't even look remotely under pressure.

 

[hrotha]

Well, Porte looked more human today, was clearly on the edge on Croix de Fer and couldn't pull more than 1k on the final climb.

Yeah, he was just one of the 8 top climbers of the Tour today. Nothing special.

 

[bigloco]

There were probably close to 100 people at the bottom of PdB in the yellow jersey group. Today in Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne there were, uh, 25?

Cycling sure cleaned up fast.

BTW, using VAM I get almost 5.9 W/kg for Froome. Not amazing, but also not glacial.

I hate comparing rides and using VAM for anything but mountain time trials, but Froome's 5.9 today was not his maximum...obvious as the DS called him off when he dropped Wiggo.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You must be kidding, outsiders and french teams winning stages this year is due to the peloton being controlled by sky and none of the other bigger teams being able to do much of anything without being devoured by froomey, rogers or porte. Sky could get those stage wins if they really cared about the breakaways.
What are those french teams that have no GC leader supposed to do ? Sit around in the peloton and admire the wiggos' sideburns?

Getting rid of the time bonuses has been good for the French teams, though they have won plenty of mountain stages in their time.

OK, there was only Rolland last year but you had Voeckler's fairytale in the maillot jaune. 2010 you had Chavanel to Station des Rousses, Casar on the Madeleine stage, Riblon to Bonascre, Voeckler to Bagnères-de-Luchon and Fedrigo to Pau. In fact, the French won every mountain stage except Tourmalet and Morzine. In 2009 you had Feillu to Arcalis, Fedrigo in Tarbes, and Casar in Bourg-St-Maurice (after Astarloza's DQ). In 2008, there was only Dessel in Jausiers, but Efimkin (after Riccò's DQ) and Gerrans both won mountain stages on French teams.

French teams and riders have been at the centre of the mountain stages ever since the time bonuses were taken away, and they weren't exactly hidden from view before then either.

-the comparisons to Riis are facile. The climbing data indicates Froome is not climbing at EPO-era speeds.

That he isn't climbing at EPO-era speeds does not preclude the ratio "speed of other riders:speed of Chris Froome" being any different to the "speed of other riders:speed of Bjarne Riis" one. Cycling is cleaner today, even the doubting Thomases need to understand that. But that doesn't mean that people aren't doping. You can't get away with anything like the amount that you got away with in the height of the EPO era. But that does also mean that you don't need the same amount to be dominant. Putting out the numbers that Sky are doing now might have made them also-rans at the height of the EPO era. But it doesn't necessarily follow that they are clean, nor does it follow that riders need to be putting out the same stats as 1996 to be doped.

This officially became hilarious today. When Froome went and dropped Wiggins, I was laughing out loud. When it was like 9 contenders left, including 4 Sky riders, I was just angry, but hey, gotta go with the flow. Enjoy the circus!

Team Sky self-aggrandizing backstage video shows this to be the case for sure.

 

[Montanus]

Yeah, he was just one of the 8 top climbers of the Tour today. Nothing special.

Well, his aim wasn't to reach the finish with the GC contenders. He is a domestique you know, like Kern.

 

[mastersracer]

No, you're missing the point. Even with a wonder drug, you can't dope to go above theoretical human limits, because it'd be too obvious. Look at the flak Contador got at Verbier. Back in the 90s and early 00s, very few people talked about W/kg, but now that figure is widely known.

Your first scenario is extremely unlikely. Froome didn't even had a contract during the 2011 Vuelta. Rogers was a has-been when they signed him. Porte came from a terrible season. All the best riders in the world just happen to be Anglo-Saxons with a sudden burst of performance?

The scenario that makes the most sense is good ol' team doping to put their riders closer to the upper limit of human capability without tripping the wire.

really? Froome, Porte, and Rogers are basically Bob Roll class riders who have suddenly transformed into Riis on EPO? I guess top ten or podium finishes at grand tours, world championships, etc. don't count for anything any more. The only other team that has that sort of depth is RSNT and they are all old and lack their GC rider...

 

[Lanark]

It was so slow that the leader's group was reduced to some 8 guys with 50 km to go, and 4 OF THEM WERE SKY RIDERS.

That's clearly because everyone is out of shape. Just like at the Vuelta last year, or the Dauphiné.

 

[BroDeal]

That he isn't climbing at EPO-era speeds does not preclude the ratio "speed of other riders:speed of Chris Froome" being any different to the "speed of other riders:speed of Bjarne Riis" one. Cycling is cleaner today, even the doubting Thomases need to understand that. But that doesn't mean that people aren't doping. You can't get away with anything like the amount that you got away with in the height of the EPO era. But that does also mean that you don't need the same amount to be dominant. Putting out the numbers that Sky are doing now might have made them also-rans at the height of the EPO era. But it doesn't necessarily follow that they are clean, nor does it follow that riders need to be putting out the same stats as 1996 to be doped.

This.

I think we have moved into an era where doping during training is used to get extreme weight loss. Wiggins was 75 to 76 kg and described as very lean on Cofidis. Then six or seven kg loss on top of that and he is a better climber than Evans. Rogers is also claiming to be lighter than ever before. For climbing it does not matter if you increase your power by ~5% with a passport reduced regimen of EPO or reduce weight by ~5%; the climbing speed increase works out to be the same.

 

[T_S_A_R]

This.

I think we have moved into an era where doping during training is used to get extreme weight loss. Wiggins was 75 to 76 kg and described as very lean on Cofidis. Then six or seven kg loss on top of that and he is a better climber than Evans. Rogers is also claiming to be lighter than ever before. For climbing it does not matter if you increase your power by ~5% with a passport reduced regimen of EPO or reduce weight by ~5%; the climbing speed increase works out to be the same.

but that still leaves us with the problem of sparatcus crushing TT'ing ability....

i however have figured this one out.... who has the seen the movie the prestige?

 

[roundabout]

I hate comparing rides and using VAM for anything but mountain time trials, but Froome's 5.9 today was not his maximum...obvious as the DS called him off when he dropped Wiggo.

True.

I just thought that removing the flat km and adjusting accordingly is better than saying "1412 m/hr, glacial".

 

[User Guide]

This.

I think we have moved into an era where doping during training is used to get extreme weight loss. Wiggins was 75 to 76 kg and described as very lean on Cofidis. Then six or seven kg loss on top of that and he is a better climber than Evans. Rogers is also claiming to be lighter than ever before. For climbing it does not matter if you increase your power by ~5% with a passport reduced regimen of EPO or reduce weight by ~5%; the climbing speed increase works out to be the same.

+10000
already posted something to the same effect,and its about as clean as we will ever get with the attitude of the peleton(they will simply not see this as doping)

 

[Mellow Velo]

I detect a just a slight wind of change around here, after today's very exciting crawl.
All out action, over a short course, from gun to tape, in perfect conditions; all at 31kph. Half the peloton around 27kph.

Less doped? OK, that's a start.

 

[Escarabajo]

-They reacted and were coming up to him, which is why Wiggins was left on his own.

-the comparisons to Riis are facile. The climbing data indicates Froome is not climbing at EPO-era speeds.

- once upon a time, people argued that a cleaner peloton meant new riders would emerge and be competitive.

-people used to attack on climbs before 1990 too.

Yeah right. Is the train from the same team pre-nineties?

Even if you don't have EPO speeds you have some riders with outstanding transformation at the same time in the same team, just after coming from Tenerife. Come on.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I was very critical after the 1st mountain stage (when Froome won). But after reading the science article (Link: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html), i am somehow convinced that it´s way better than in the Pharmstrong days. So, actually i enjoyed todays stage. I felt like back in the 80s . We actually had racing (no dull no-showings like in this years Giro). It was like Lemond/Hinault. Froome was held back. I can live with it. Those tactics happen in pro racing (not that i like it).

Froome: I am also convinced. He got a serious illness in africa. This bilharzia isn´t just a cold. Nice recovery. So, his jumps in performance make sense to me.

W/O the decision to give England the 1st ever TdF-Victory (Wiggins), this origin kenyan would have exploded the field further today. He seems to be the real deal.

 

[User Guide]

JV tried to hire Froome before Vuelta...
http://twitter.com/Vaughters

 

[roundabout]

So Lampre say that they almost agreed a deal at the beginning of the Vuelta, but JV didn't have the resources?

Must have been somewhere after Covatilla when Froome's value skyrocketed. Stage 10 or so? Right smack in the beginning.

 

[User Guide]

So Lampre say that they almost agreed a deal at the beginning of the Vuelta, but JV didn't have the resources?

Must have been somewhere after Covatilla when Froome's value skyrocketed. Stage 10 or so? Right smack in the beginning.

Good job JV is poor or itd be Froome/Wiggins/TJVG/Hysedal etc etc TGV never mind train

 

[Catwhoorg]

Given Garmin's luck this year, he would have crashed out.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

JV also had some "very good sources" that AC was clean.

As for Alberto, maybe the one thing everyone hasnt considered is that I don't know if he's clean or not? I have some very good sources that say he is, however I also am very capable of reading "AC" in Puerto reports. So, the reality is this: I dont know.

 

[college]

I was very critical after the 1st mountain stage (when Froome won). But after reading the science article (Link: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html), i am somehow convinced that it´s way better than in the Pharmstrong days. So, actually i enjoyed todays stage. I felt like back in the 80s . We actually had racing (no dull no-showings like in this years Giro). It was like Lemond/Hinault. Froome was held back. I can live with it. Those tactics happen in pro racing (not that i like it).

Froome: I am also convinced. He got a serious illness in africa. This bilharzia isn´t just a cold. Nice recovery. So, his jumps in performance make sense to me.

W/O the decision to give England the 1st ever TdF-Victory (Wiggins), this origin kenyan would have exploded the field further today. He seems to be the real deal.

Great post. I also believe that Froome is the real deal. It is going to be great to have Wiggo win the Tour de France.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Does anyone think that the Sky sponsorship is a perfect match for this team

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Great post. I also believe that Froome is the real deal. It is going to be great to have Wiggo win the Tour de France.

You and I agreeing? Wow.
After all the clashes in the Armstrong thread? Anyway. He´s a different story... so, thanks.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This entirely misses the point. Their performance is entirely consistent with two scenarios:

1. they stack the team with good riders and have more depth than other teams (no one really knows what Sky's budget is except that they can afford to double Cav's salary when he moved over).

2. They are taking some unknown substance that no other team has access to. Whatever it is, it is not efficacious enough to raise their performance above pre-EPO performances.

3. UCI is protecting Sky. There is ample and non-controversial evidence the UCI does this, so it is not far-fetched to assume it's happening with Sky.

3a. To some extent, the Sky meetings with the ASO showing blood values add fuel to the suspicions, but that's quite a bit of speculation.

As for #2, There is no need for a super-drug. As has been mentioned by dope dealers, it's about finding the right cocktail to maximize the response.

No matter how many times it's been mentioned you refuse to acknowledge doping parameters are currently configured so riders aren't dying from doping. So, even Sky is going slower than the 1990's, but relative to the rest of the 2012 peloton many factors suggest they are running a USPS-style doping program.

 

[mastersracer]

Yeah right. Is the train from the same team pre-nineties?

Even if you don't have EPO speeds you have some riders with outstanding transformation at the same time in the same team, just after coming from Tenerife. Come on.

Yes, but they were one man trains with names like Merckx and Hinault, who would win 7 or 8 stages, including prologues, mountain stages, and sprint stages, and roll into Paris (where they'd also usually win the final stage) with big leads as much as 17 minutes. No need for trains with 70+ km team time trials and leaders who could solo off the front most of the day.

In 1986 Hinault and Lemond dropped the entire field and soloed up Alpe D'huez with such a large lead that they spent it talking out their differences....

Sky has dominated BMC, who have never put together good mountain support for Evans and Liquigas, who besides Basso, has Canuti, Koren, Nerz, Oss, Vanotti! Maybe not such a monumental domination in the history of the Tour.