Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

keep making those excuses. The Armstrong fanboy record is in reach.

JRAnton has been calling Froome and Wiggins out as dopers for a long time.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

JRAnton has been calling Froome and Wiggins out as dopers for a long time.

Second that. So stop harrassing him.

Question remains, why didnt the Colorado altitude training work for the Worlds? The time trials were okay, the road race was BS. Were team GB knocked of their feet due to JTL?

 

[happychappy]

Yeah. It is perfectly normal for someone racing at a VO2Max of over ninety to have it drop to seventy in a month while still getting regular exercise.

It works for Nibali.

 

[JRanton]

Second that. So stop harrassing him.

Question remains, why didnt the Colorado altitude training work for the Worlds? The time trials were okay, the road race was BS. Were team GB knocked of their feet due to JTL?

Look at the team they selected. No hilly classics riders.

 

[JRanton]

Thanks.

Sounds like the Tour de France & bike racing in general. Transfers, travelling, riding, racing, transfers, travelling.

Do cyclists have a bed they call their own?

I'm sure he was just fine.

Maybe he was tired after the Tour? After all, his level had already dropped in the Tour after Ventoux.

Just my opinion, but I'd find it a lot more suspicious if Froome had carried on at a very high level post-Tour. You obviously disagree.

 

[thehog]

Maybe he was tired after the Tour? After all, his level had already dropped in the Tour after Ventoux.

Just my opinion, but I'd find it a lot more suspicious if Froome had carried on at a very high level post-Tour. You obviously disagree.

I actually agree with you. But his form was still very good right up to he end of the Tour.

He clearly deserved to take some time out, put on weight, drink beer, eat a burger.

He's number one goal for the year was the Tour. So completely understand why the motivation dropped.

Nevertheless what Froome did at Ax3 & Ventoux could translate into the WC he would have won by a lap.

I just think when he's not on a full program his form drops to what is his normal self. Which is a mid pack rider.

 

[Benotti69]

I actually agree with you. But his form was still very good right up to he end of the Tour.

He clearly deserved to take some time out, put on weight, drink beer, eat a burger.

He's number one goal for the year was the Tour. So completely understand why the motivation dropped.

Nevertheless what Froome did at Ax3 & Ventoux could translate into the WC he would have won by a lap.

I just think when he's not on a full program his form drops to what is his normal self. Which is a mid pack rider.

So generous.

 

[JRanton]

I actually agree with you. But his form was still very good right up to he end of the Tour.

He clearly deserved to take some time out, put on weight, drink beer, eat a burger.

He's number one goal for the year was the Tour. So completely understand why the motivation dropped.

Nevertheless what Froome did at Ax3 & Ventoux could translate into the WC he would have won by a lap.

I just think when he's not on a full program his form drops to what is his normal self. Which is a mid pack rider.

Maybe so but I think we agree that his form post-Tour doesn't really indicate anything either way because there are normal and valid reasons for it.

I disagree that he'd have won the Worlds if he'd been in his Ax3/Ventoux shape. His Tirreno performance on that hilly stage and his L-B-L performance, when he was clearly in very good shape on both occasions, indicate that he just isn't a rider suited to hilly one day races. Big difference between 2-5 minute efforts on hills and 25-40 minute efforts on mountains as I'm sure you know.

 

[The Hitch]

Look at the team they selected. No hilly classics riders.

I disagree btw JR that being a good hilly classics racer and owning hills and mountains in gts are different things. Froome one the hilly classic stage of the Tour of Oman.

He has all the qualities to dominate one day races and even if he didn't, his climbing and riding on flat is just so much better than anybody else who does the 1 day races, that it would easily make up for whatever weaknesses he may have.

 

[thehog]

Maybe so but I think we agree that his form post-Tour doesn't really indicate anything either way because there are normal and valid reasons for it.

I disagree that he'd have won the Worlds if he'd been in his Ax3/Ventoux shape. His Tirreno performance on that hilly stage and his L-B-L performance, when he was clearly in very good shape on both occasions, indicate that he just isn't a rider suited to hilly one day races. Big difference between 2-5 minute efforts on hills and 25-40 minute efforts on mountains as I'm sure you know.

Nah. The guy is meant to be the Ali of cycling.

He can time trial better than them all. Out climb them. He should at the very least be in the lead group at the end or a hilly one day race.

He's gone back to being just plain old Chris Froome. Like Superman with kryptonite.

 

[JRanton]

I disagree btw JR that being a good hilly classics racer and owning hills and mountains in gts are different things. Froome one the hilly classic stage of the Tour of Oman.

He has all the qualities to dominate one day races and even if he didn't, his climbing and riding on flat is just so much better than anybody else who does the 1 day races, that it would easily make up for whatever weaknesses he may have.

They are different things though and Froome hasn't to my knowledge owned hilly stages in grand tours. Even when at his best, Contador doesn't have a particularly good record in one day hilly races. Leaving aside the doping factor, they're both ''pure'' stage racers, who excel at long 30-40 minute efforts, whether it's on climbs or in time trials, not short explosive efforts over a few minutes.

Froome has none of the technical abilities needed to win a one day race and he isn't explosive on short steep climbs. Even in his very best form he'd have no chance of following the likes of Purito for instance when he attacked in Lombardia.

Why was he so poor in that brutally hilly Tirreno stage and L-B-L? I'm sure you'd agree that his form at the time was very good, so why did he struggle so much?

 

[JRanton]

Nah. The guy is meant to be the Ali of cycling.

He can time trial better than them all. Out climb them. He should at the very least be in the lead group at the end or a hilly one day race.

He's gone back to being just plain old Chris Froome. Like Superman with kryptonite.

Oh come on Hog, he isn't the Ali of cycling. Like Porte said, he can barely ride his bike without bumping into someone every few minutes for goodness sake.

When the action kicked off on Saint Nicloas in L-B-L he wasn't able to follow the attacks. Two days later he wins the time trial in Romandie and goes on to win the race. The new Chris Froome is a pure GC stage racer.

 

[thehog]

Oh come on Hog, he isn't the Ali of cycling. Like Porte said, he can barely ride his bike without bumping into someone every few minutes for goodness sake.

When the action kicked off on Saint Nicloas in L-B-L he wasn't able to follow the attacks. Two days later he wins the prologue in Romandie and goes on to win the race. The new Chris Froome is a pure GC stage racer.

If he can do this in a one day race he'd win: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwzfWal4kE4

His problem is he has no racing brain or tactical sense. Niballi schooled him at TA. Froome was clearly stronger but Niballi got in his head about powermeters and then attacked him on a ridge and descended like a madman.

Froome and by extension team GB/Sky are tactical dunces when it comes to one day races. The WC RR was evidence of such. 270km and its p!ssing down with rain. It was a day to hide until to the last lap. What do Team GB do? Get on the front for the opening 100km! Crazy stuff. They blew themselves up.

The new Chris Froome can put away any rider on the planet. If he was the real deal he'd show us he can win a one day race like LeMond. Sadly Froome the Dawg was made in a laboratory on CO juice.

But yes. He is pure GC rider. Whereby powers of recovery are everything and having a team dialed in at 450w for 6 hours each day.

 

[JRanton]

If he can do this in a one day race he'd win: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwzfWal4kE4

His problem is he has no racing brain or tactical sense. Niballi schooled him at TA. Froome was clearly stronger but Niballi got in his head about powermeters and then attacked him on a ridge and descended like a madman.

Froome and by extension team GB/Sky are tactical dunces when it comes to one day races. The WC RR was evidence of such. 270km and its p!ssing down with rain. It was a day to hide until to the last lap. What do Team GB do? Get on the front for the opening 100km! Crazy stuff. They blew themselves up.

The new Chris Froome can put away any rider on the planet. If he was the real deal he'd show us he can win a one day race like LeMond. Sadly Froome the Dawg was made in a laboratory on CO juice.

But yes. He is pure GC rider. Whereby powers of recovery are everything and having a team dialed in at 450w for 6 hours each day.

That mountain top finish in CI was 14km long. I don't see the relevance of that to a hilly one day race, sorry. His problem in that Tirreno stage, it was Horner who made the split happen btw, was that he couldn't follow the best riders on the short climbs. Same in L-B-L.

I don't disagree that he and Sky are also tactically inept, but there other reasons for the failure too.

 

[thehog]

That mountain top finish in CI was 14km long. I don't see the relevance of that to a hilly one day race, sorry. His problem in that Tirreno stage, it was Horner who made the split happen btw, was that he couldn't follow the best riders on the short climbs. Same in L-B-L.

I don't disagree that he and Sky are also tactically inept, but there other reasons for the failure too.

True. Horner was good at TA. Looked very solid. But Froome still smoked him when it counted.

Froome is pure power. He should be able to LeMond a one day race.

But his eggs are in the Tour basket so don't see him trying to win one anytime soon.

Back in Barloworld days he did ride Roubaix did he not?

 

[The Hitch]

Even when at his best, Contador doesn't have a particularly good record in one day hilly races. Leaving aside the doping factor, they're both ''pure'' stage racers, who excel at long 30-40 minute efforts, whether it's on climbs or in time trials, not short explosive efforts over a few minutes.

Contador, he doesn't have a particularly good record in 1 day races because he never cared or tried. He peaks for July or in 2012 for September and always makes clear he is 100% grand tours and could give a **** about 1 day races. Even still he was probably one of the strongest in Liege in 2010.

Why was he so poor in that brutally hilly Tirreno stage and L-B-L? I'm sure you'd agree that his form at the time was very good, so why did he struggle so much?

The Tirreno stage? Lets not overexagerate. Nibali, Rodriguez and Sagan, possibly 3 of the 5 strongest hill riders in the world, maybe even the top 3 themselves, beat him for about 50 seconds by working together on the flat.

Aside form that he finished 6 seconds behind Samuel Sanchez and st as Roelands, Kwiatkowski, Niemiec, Mollema, Hushovd and Evans. Plenty of other great classics riders perhaps not trying so hard, were minutes down.

More importantly since when is doing badly in 1 race or even 10 races proof that someone is incapable of performing in a discipline.

Rodriguez was **** in Liege for 3 years running before this year. In all those years he was on the podium of FW which is 3 days earlier. Either side of those years he came 2nd in Liege.

As for Froome in Liege, he didn't care about Liege, simple. And even then there are a million reasons for why someone may not perform in a 1 day race. Why can the likes of Basso or Frank Schleck who don't have 1/10th of Froomes uphill acceleration and 1/1000th of his flat skills, and are far more fraglie and weak on descents, do so well in 1 day classics?

Froome has none of the technical abilities needed to win a one day race and he isn't explosive on short steep climbs. Even in his very best form he'd have no chance of following the likes of Purito for instance when he attacked in Lombardia.

How do you know that? Froome has never tried to win a short steep climb. Well he did win the hill in Oman, against Rodriguez

He has had tremendous success on medium steep climbs - Pena Cabarga, PDBF, Prati di Tivo, Ax 3 Domainx,Peyragudes and Jabal Al Akhdhar, and thats just in 2 years.
On PDBF he showed himself to be far far more explosive than Evans and Nibali, both of whom are top 1 day hill racers.

None of those are 30-40 minute efforts, more like 15-25.

 

[JRanton]

True. Horner was good at TA. Looked very solid. But Froome still smoked him when it counted.

Froome is pure power. He should be able to LeMond a one day race.

But his eggs are in the Tour basket so don't see him trying to win one anytime soon.

Back in Barloworld days he did ride Roubaix did he not?

Smoked him on the mountain top finish and in the time trial, yes. He clearly went to L-B-L this year looking for a result but he was nowhere despite being in good form.

CQ states that he didn't ride Roubaix with Barloworld.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

In 2012 Froome was plenty explosive on a short, steep climb, setting tempo for most of the previous climb and then schooling Evans who had been sitting on all day for the stage win. Don't remember the stage, but explosive is how I would describe the way Chris dropped Evans that day.

I don't think you can classify a racer with such confidence based purely on what they have done, as so many have mentioned, when that rider is targeting specific race types (eg GTs vs 1-dayers).

GTs have reduced "luck" elements, IMO, and far greater ROI than a one dayer.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Froome is pure power. He should be able to LeMond a one day race.

End of story on Froome. Porte's performances are totally legitimate too. Who is after that on Sky podium train?

 

[thehog]

In 2012 Froome was plenty explosive on a short, steep climb, setting tempo for most of the previous climb and then schooling Evans who had been sitting on all day for the stage win. Don't remember the stage, but explosive is how I would describe the way Chris dropped Evans that day.

I don't think you can classify a racer with such confidence based purely on what they have done, as so many have mentioned, when that rider is targeting specific race types (eg GTs vs 1-dayers).

GTs have reduced "luck" elements, IMO, and far greater ROI than a one dayer.

Doping rewards much bigger in GTs than one day races whereby tacics can win over a vial of EPO (sometimes).

Froome's seated motorised acceleration on Ventoux after 220km show he can be explosive. Plenty explosive.

 

[JRanton]

Contador, he doesn't have a particularly good record in 1 day races because he never cared or tried. He peaks for July or in 2012 for September and always makes clear he is 100% grand tours and could give a **** about 1 day races. Even still he was probably one of the strongest in Liege in 2010.

And Contador concentrates 100% on grand tours because he has a much better chance of winning them than one day races. Just like Froome.

The Tirreno stage? Lets not overexagerate. Nibali, Rodriguez and Sagan, possibly 3 of the 5 strongest hill riders in the world, maybe even the top 3 themselves, beat him for about 50 seconds by working together on the flat.

I don't think I am exaggerating. Froome was on his own off the back of the main chase group for quite a while and never contributed to the chase when he managed to bridge despite being in the leader's jersey. And of course those guys are 3 of the strongest hill riders in the world. Much better than Froome clearly and a pretty good reason as to why in all probability he'll never win a major one day race or even podium.

Aside form that he finished 6 seconds behind Samuel Sanchez and st as Roelands, Kwiatkowski, Niemiec, Mollema, Hushovd and Evans. Plenty of other great classics riders perhaps not trying so hard, were minutes down.

More importantly since when is doing badly in 1 race or even 10 races proof that someone is incapable of performing in a discipline.

Rodriguez was **** in Liege for 3 years running before this year. In all those years he was on the podium of FW which is 3 days earlier. Either side of those years he came 2nd in Liege.

As for Froome in Liege, he didn't care about Liege, simple. And even then there are a million reasons for why someone may not perform in a 1 day race. Why can the likes of Basso or Frank Schleck who don't have 1/10th of Froomes uphill acceleration and 1/1000th of his flat skills, and are far more fraglie and weak on descents, do so well in 1 day classics?

How do you know he didn't care about Leige? Seems an odd decision to ride it in that case given there's a pretty high chance of crashing. I agree that we probably do need more evidence and I'm perfectly happy to take a Carlton Kirby avatar for a year if Froome top 5's on that Tirreno wall next year or top 10's at L-B-L.

Frank Schleck is much more explosive on short hills than Froome and Ivan hardly has a stellar one day palmares. One significant win nine years ago?

How do you know that? Froome has never tried to win a short steep climb. Well he did win the hill in Oman, against Rodriguez

He has had tremendous success on medium steep climbs - Pena Cabarga, PDBF, Prati di Tivo, Ax 3 Domainx,Peyragudes and Jabal Al Akhdhar, and thats just in 2 years.

On PDBF he showed himself to be far far more explosive than Evans and Nibali, both of whom are top 1 day hill racers.

None of those are 30-40 minute efforts, more like 15-25.

Well mostly 20-25 minutes (and some of those are at the end of mountain stages which is obviously going to suit Froome). Much different to the 3-5 minute explosive efforts that are needed in most hilly classic races.

That Oman stage doesn't mean a great deal in the middle of an early season stage race.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Look at the team they selected. No hilly classics riders.

I did not say there were. But is that an excuse for abandoning with all riders with 100km to go?

 

[JRanton]

I did not say there were. But is that an excuse for abandoning with all riders with 100km to go?

No, it isn't an excuse. It was a very poor performance. What I don't get is the idea that they've suddenly decided to go off the juice for the Worlds but are perfectly happy to juice for races like Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico. That argument doesn't make any sense to me, sorry. If Froome and Sky were simply turning up in July and smoking everyone without having shown anything for the rest of the year then that would be a massive red flag.

 

[thehog]

No, it isn't an excuse. It was a very poor performance. What I don't get is the idea that they've suddenly decided to go off the juice for the Worlds but are perfectly happy to juice for races like Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico. That argument doesn't make any sense to me, sorry. If Froome and Sky were simply turning up in July and smoking everyone without having shown anything for the rest of the year then that would be a massive red flag.

And smoking everyone for 6 months is not a red flag? (keep blood parameters in sync for the bio).

Doping is hard to do for more than 6 months. Trust me.

You need a break. From the rigors on your body and the administration thereof.

 

[JRanton]

And smoking everyone for 6 months is not a red flag? (keep blood parameters in sync for the bio).

Doping is hard to do for more than 6 months. Trust me.

You need a break. From the rigors on your body and the administration thereof.

Of course it's a red flag when it's Chris Froome doing it. But actually a naturally talented rider should be able to perform consistently well over that period of time. Do you disagree?