Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Libertine Seguros]

Come on hog, 2013 is not what I'm on about after he was exposed. I'm on about during his 7 Tour wins. Did he say anything about Contador's win in 07 or anything in the 90s? I mean at the time of all this, just like he has done now with Rogers and JTL. Why Sky now and not Armstrong when there was more on him?

I'm not disagreeing too strongly with what you have to say on Rogers and JTL(you may well be right), I do have a disagreement with your position regarding Keys's motives. Everyone knows he's a bitter so and so, his Independent interview showed this. Don't think he cares about all this for one minute.

Sky are unfortunate in comparison to Armstrong in that the media is far, far harder to control at this point than it was twelve years ago. By 2001 almost all of Armstrong's key talking points were in place and could then just be reiterated enough to become "common knowledge" through repetition, enough to create enough background noise to drown out the dissenters. Social media is much more difficult to control because reportage is much more spontaneous, and far fewer "reporters" have anybody to answer to (i.e. there is much more interaction between the actors and the audience, whose views are often not as distilled for mass consumption as the journalist writing copy that has to ensure it is not libelous, or is bound by the constraints of who he writes for etc.). Also, because of social media and this increased interaction, journalists and reporters are made far more aware of the opinions of their audience than in the past where they could often have a much bigger role in shaping it.

 

[SundayRider]

Give Keys a break, guy clearly knows his stuff this was his reply to one tweet.

@spqpr1973 all the childish inaccurate abuse in the world won't change the facts. That's how Armstrong got away with it.

 

[thehog]

They did. Quite a lot actually. Especially Wiggins

I also remember g Thomas having a YouTube interview with lance calling him an absolute legend, and complaining in 2012 that usada should just leave lance alone.

Yes I'm not sure Gooner can get away with the "what did they ever do to speak out against Armstrong".

Well what did Sky do? That just made it one big love in for Lance and not only enforced the omertà but made anyone who questioned it was verbally beaten up for it in media.

Let Keys speak.

 

[gooner]

Yes I'm not sure Gooner can get away with the "what did they ever do to speak out against Armstrong".

Well what did Sky do? That just made it one big love in for Lance and not only enforced the omertà but made anyone who questioned it was verbally beaten up for it in media.

Let Keys speak.

What is it exactly am i trying to get away with? Not everything is about Armstrong, I did mention Contador and other instances too.

Keys has kept shut in accusing anyone over the years and suddenly opened his gob today. I provided a link showing his clear bitterness towards the top brass at Sky over his sacking which he got hugely criticised for. You can see opposite if you wish but the timing tells me everything once again. I don't agree with everything Roy Keane says, but there was never a more true comment he said regarding Keys. Off all things, this is the first topic I would take Keys with a pinch of salt on. If he was still at Sky and with this taking place, it wouldn't garner enough of his attention to comment on twitter.

Keys can speak all he likes, you might think he's the man but it's up to me whether I think his motives are genuine or not.

 

[thehog]

What is it exactly am i trying to get away with? Not everything is about Armstrong, I did mention Contador and other instances too.

Keys has kept shut in accusing anyone over the years and suddenly opened his gob today. I provided a link showing his clear bitterness towards the top brass at Sky over his sacking which he got hugely criticised for. You can see opposite if you wish but the timing tells me everything once again. I don't agree with everything Roy Keane says, but there was never a more true comment he said regarding Keys. Off all things, this is the first topic I would take Keys with a pinch of salt on. If he was still at Sky and with this taking place, it wouldn't garner enough of his attention to comment on twitter.

Keys can speak all he likes, you might think he's the man but it's up to me whether I think his motives are genuine or not.

Keys covered the Tour for years and worked for SkyTV.

David Walsh gave up on covering the Tour and only came back this year when invited to write about Sky and be paid for it.

Walsh bitter about Armstrong.

Keys bitter about losing his job.

What's the difference?

 

[gooner]

Keys covered the Tour for years and worked for SkyTV.

And happy to be a big part of the huge over-hyped machine that he was doing with Sky for 20 years, until now. I wonder why?

David Walsh gave up on covering the Tour and only came back this year when invited to write about Sky and be paid for it.

Walsh bitter about Armstrong.

Keys bitter about losing his job.

What's the difference?

Walsh said he was disillusioned and wanted to come back after he was exposed. His disillusionment was entirely justified considering what he knew and what he was seeing was still continuing. What he knew was not bitterness by any stretch of the means. Plus Kimmage was doing it for the Sunday Times in the years after.

No journalist in their right mind would want to turn down the offer that Walsh got from Sky. If Walsh wasn't writing on Sky this year, he would have been still getting paid for writing on other topics, just like he has been doing the last number of weeks and other times throughout the year when he wasn't reporting on Sky. It needs to be repeated once again, Walsh is not a designated cycling journalist. Far from it.

The difference is Keys is basing his opinions entirely on his bitterness from his deserved sacking.

 

[gooner]

British media now beginning to take this up.

From the point at which BSkyB first invested in British Cycling in 2008, the title sponsors whose £13 million-a-year funding has yielded one of the biggest recent success stories in British sport made it clear: we will not accept being associated with doping.

So, in the wake of allegations made against Tiernan-Locke and Rogers, the question hanging over Team Sky is: at what point would BSkyB decide its investment was a liability rather than the remarkable asset it has been to date?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-stands-behind-its-team-but-for-how-long.html

This is what I always thought, the ZTP isn't a Brailsford initiating policy but one from the people in high places at BSkyB. Remember Brailsford was thinking about hiring Neil Stephens at one point.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

British media now beginning to take this up.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-stands-behind-its-team-but-for-how-long.html

This is what I always thought, the ZTP isn't a Brailsford initiating policy but one from the people in high places at BSkyB. Remember Brailsford was thinking about hiring Neil Stephens at one point.

Sky's investments got a major payback in 2012. Now the Co is playing along until it gets too tough imo.

The media will bank the clicks on the way down.

 

[pastronef]

Sky sponsorship is confirmed until at least 2016?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Sky sponsorship is confirmed until at least 2016?

We are talking about a global corp here. They will pull the plug if they don't think it provides a good return.

 

[gooner]

Sky sponsorship is confirmed until at least 2016?

I'm sure there are get out clauses in certain circumstances.

We see headlines like "Ex-Sky rider fails doping test" and the Daily Mail "Team Sky cyclist Tiernan-Locke to face anti-doping disciplinary action". Whatever way you look at it, it's bad publicity. It doesn't matter even if JTL was clean after signing on for this year or Rogers is a contaminated one, Sky and doping in the same sentence is well in the public domain this week. Imagine what it will be like if they get full 2 year sanctions and it could easily put second thoughts and reservations into the sponsorship of it all. I don't think it's out of the question. It's enough to put necessary doubt into your ordinary Joe soap on the street and we can see from the BSkyB enforcement of this ZTP, they are extremely image concious.

 

[The Hitch]

The difference is Keys is basing his opinions entirely on his bitterness from his deserved sacking.

Keys deserved to be sacked, but you don't know what he is basing his opinions on. Does he have any inside information- of course not. Is he bitter - yes. Is he a hypocrite not to call out footballers- yes.

But at the same time he's accusing a team which is suspected of doping by the vast majority of cycling fans.

My guess is the ridiculous performances if not the association with Lienders etc, probably also played a part in his opinions. Having said that, I can't know.

 

[gooner]

Keys deserved to be sacked, but you don't know what he is basing his opinions on. Does he have any inside information- of course not. Is he bitter - yes. Is he a hypocrite not to call out footballers- yes.

But at the same time he's accusing a team which is suspected of doping by the vast majority of cycling fans.

My guess ridiculous performances if not the association with Lienders etc, probably also played a part in his opinions.

He has never done this in the past. His independent interview is clear bitterness with the bosses at Sky and his comment that Neville and Carragher's novelty will wear off is massive hypocrisy considering the length of time he and Gray were there for. He still thinks they were good enough to go on. It's agenda driven.

Having said that, since I can't read minds I can't know for sure what he is basing his opinions on.

It's not about reading minds, it's about going on what he says and how he has presented in the past. He was happy to go along with the Sky hype machine over the years and was a big part of it. He'd be still delighted to go along with it today even with the news of this week coming out if he was still employed there. All of a sudden that changes and he calls out Sky for doping when he hasn't done diddly squat for years in more clear cut cases. That's my opinion.

I mentioned Keane.

I think I've done it once for Sky. Never again. I'd rather go to the dentist. You're sitting there with people like Richard Keys and they're trying to sell something that's not there.

"After the Newcastle game we had Keys on saying we've never seen anything like it, dressing things up that weren't really there, just because he was in a bad mood.

Couldn't be more true and now we're meant to take his opinion with credibility on Sky. It was an open goal opportunity for him.

 

[BroDeal]

And Sky fanboys move on to the bitter axe grinder stage of denial.

 

[gooner]

And Sky fanboys move on to the bitter axe grinder stage of denial.

It's normally a good idea to stay out of something you clearly know nothing about. Your response shows it.

 

[the sceptic]

It's normally a good idea to stay out of something you clearly know nothing about. Your response shows it.

lets get back on topic.

Do you think Rogers was doping at sky, or do you need more evidence?

 

[thehog]

And Sky fanboys move on to the bitter axe grinder stage of denial.

Noted.

Keys has become the Walsh of old.

I note that Velonation's Stokes is the devil as well.

And I laugh that JTL rode for Endura when he doped not Sky. Sky cleaned him up. LOL!

 

[thehog]

British media now beginning to take this up.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...-stands-behind-its-team-but-for-how-long.html

This is what I always thought, the ZTP isn't a Brailsford initiating policy but one from the people in high places at BSkyB. Remember Brailsford was thinking about hiring Neil Stephens at one point.

The memo has come down from HQ.

Brailsford. What the F--- is going on? That Froome thing you've created is a joke. At least make it look real. And Mick %#^#€ Rogers. How the %#^%# did we hire him? For %##%€$sake he was the biggest teflon doper of all!

Get us another British winner who can win without looking like we're doping!

 

[gooner]

Noted.

Keys has become the Walsh of old.

I note that Velonation's Stokes is the devil as well.

And I laugh that JTL rode for Endura when he doped not Sky. Sky cleaned him up. LOL!

When I see Keys being put in the same breath now as Walsh with Armstrong on the basis of one tweet, I just know a sense of reality has gone.

 

[thehog]

When I see Keys being put in the same breath now as Walsh with Armstrong on the basis of one tweet, I just know a sense of reality has gone.

When I saw Wiggins proudly telling the world his "love" for Lance & G Thomas telling the world that USADA should just leave Lance alone I knew the world had lost itself.

When David Walsh just forgets all that and pretends it never happened then reality has gone. Agreed.

But that's not as half as senseless as Grupetto-Froome smashing apart a world class field riding up hills with seated attacks. And when that's coupled with Walsh comparing that senseless effort to an ITT and not mention it's an ITT so it looks like it wasn't so crazy then, yes Walsh and Keys are sitting in a tree.

They deserve each other.

 

[the sceptic]

When I saw Wiggins proudly telling the world his "love" for Lance & G Thomas telling the world that USADA should just leave Lance alone I knew the world had lost itself.

When David Walsh just forgets all that and pretends it never happened then reality has gone. Agreed.

But that's not as half as senseless as Grupetto-Froome smashing apart a world class field riding up hills with seated attacks. And when that's coupled with Walsh comparing that senseless effort to an ITT and not mention it's an ITT so it looks like it wasn't so crazy then, yes Walsh and Keys are sitting in a tree.

They deserve each other.

I am deeply worried that all the skyfans on here and elsewhere seem to dodge the uncomfortable question.

Now that there is actually some evidence, which as we know is what everyone was waiting for, all we get is silence.

We now know that Rogers is in fact not morally superior to anyone else, and that he doped in the post dark, new clean era.

I cant think or any arguments for how he could possibly have been cleans at sky.

 

[thehog]

I am deeply worried that all the skyfans on here and elsewhere seem to dodge the uncomfortable question.

Now that there is actually some evidence, which as we know is what everyone was waiting for, all we get is silence.

We now know that Rogers is in fact not morally superior to anyone else, and that he doped in the post dark, new clean era.

I cant think or any arguments for how he could possibly have been cleans at sky.

For the bots the world just got complicated. JTL anomalies from his time "embedded" at BC and training with Sky. Rogers testing positive.

But of course all of this occurred when not with Sky.

Even I couldn't make this stuff up. It's just too funny.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This is what I always thought, the ZTP isn't a Brailsford initiating policy but one from the people in high places at BSkyB. Remember Brailsford was thinking about hiring Neil Stephens at one point.

Yes, prefacing this desire with the whole "we're going to relax ZTP" statement, and hiring Leinders anyway, despite Stephens not getting the final call.

 

[red_flanders]

I am deeply worried that all the skyfans on here and elsewhere seem to dodge the uncomfortable question.

Now that there is actually some evidence, which as we know is what everyone was waiting for, all we get is silence.

We now know that Rogers is in fact not morally superior to anyone else, and that he doped in the post dark, new clean era.

I cant think or any arguments for how he could possibly have been cleans at sky.

I'm just frustrated for Brailsford, who clearly could not have known about Rogers' background. Only a few insiders close to the team had ever heard of Freiburg or had suspicions about T-Mobile.

 

[sittingbison]

I'm just frustrated for Brailsford, who clearly could not have known about Rogers' background. Only a few insiders close to the team had ever heard of Freiburg or had suspicions about T-Mobile.

Now now, let's not poke the fire

Cheers
Bison