Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[sittingbison]

There has been quite a bit of looking at the beginnings of TeamGB starting after Atlanta, and the beginning of Lotto funding. I'm not up to speed, but it really appears Leinders is the first really dodgy one. Kerrison is a conundrum.

Darryl knows the most, he has made some interesting observations going back to the 80s, doesn't appear to be systematic more individual.

As to moi and jingoism with Aussies, again you are barking up the wrong tree with that one MM. I'm trying to be gracious, but you are trying to suggest something that is patently not the case. Please desist.

 

[bobbins]

They only got proper coaches in the late 90s, before then they were more managers / general do it alls. Coaches existed but not to everyone.

Geoff Cook was a track coach as was Dave LeGrys
Dave Smith was road coach in the mid 90s, lasted a year, Robert Millar, John Herety, Heiko Salzweidel

Track coaches have seen the likes of
Jan Van Eidjen
Ian Dyer
Simon Jones
Matt Parker
Dan Hunt
Shane Sutton
Chris Newton
Paul Manning

Many of the track riders were self coached in their early careers.

I'm sure I've missed a few off the list but I haven't got the time to do the digging.

 

[Mellow Velo]

That makes sense, but I suspect the cynics won't have the patience to wait until Laura T (and Dani King, Jo Rowsell, Becky James and Jess Varnish) actually have a career to scrutinise, rather than a couple of seasons.

Do you think the aforementioned ladies are clean? I do, but I'm feeling optimistic about life today.

I don't think anyone is clean.

Just to let you know that I have read it, MJM.
Glad we got that out the way, nice and early.
I assume you can figure out that my appropriate sentiments,
could only be posted elsewhere.

No more, here, from me.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Just to let you know that I have read it, MJM.
Glad we got that out the way, nice and early.
I assume you can figure out that my appropriate sentiments,
could only be posted elsewhere.

No more, here, from me.

Of course and I fully respect that for obvious reasons.

But you knew that was my view and always has been. Even at my least hardline moments I am at best agnostic regarding the notion of a clean rider. (*)

(*) - taken to mean - are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable

 

[thehog]

There has been quite a bit of looking at the beginnings of TeamGB starting after Atlanta, and the beginning of Lotto funding. I'm not up to speed, but it really appears Leinders is the first really dodgy one. Kerrison is a conundrum.

Darryl knows the most, he has made some interesting observations going back to the 80s, doesn't appear to be systematic more individual.

As to moi and jingoism with Aussies, again you are barking up the wrong tree with that one MM. I'm trying to be gracious, but you are trying to suggest something that is patently not the case. Please desist.

To be clear with you. The Aussie track team under Walsh was rife with drugs. I saw it with my own eyes.

The Brits tried to lure Walsh from Australia and built their model based on Australia's. Australia was government funded as was the British model using a portion of lottery money.

As an FYI Walsh was a swim coach.

 

[bianchigirl]

So swimming coaches are just better at doping their athletes?

 

[slowspoke]

To be clear with you. The Aussie track team under Walsh was rife with drugs. I saw it with my own eyes.

The Brits tried to lure Walsh from Australia and built their model based on Australia's. Australia was government funded as was the British model using a portion of lottery money.

As an FYI Walsh was a swim coach.

I remember this happening. In Briton at the time everyone was obsessed with copying the Ozzies. We even got an Ozzie/NZ coach as they were "successful" mine didn't do doping however.....

 

[Darryl Webster]

There has been quite a bit of looking at the beginnings of TeamGB starting after Atlanta, and the beginning of Lotto funding. I'm not up to speed, but it really appears Leinders is the first really dodgy one. Kerrison is a conundrum.


.

As well as Leinders, there's also Dr. Fabio Bartalucci served notice by Italian prosecutors back in 2001 when he was Doc with the Bonjour: team.http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2001/agosto/18/Sono_gli_avvisi_garanzia_per_co_0_0108188088.shtml

This was mentioned in the Gert Leinders thread but for some reason fell of the radar a bit quick.
So in fact when it comes to " dodgy " we have TWO doctors , Sean Yates with a previous positive as a rider and plenty of history involved with Armstrong , a certain Australian DS who has managed to stay of the radar yet ask any honest uk pro from the late 80,s, early 90,s and they,l tell ya that was more luck than integrity and Kerrison, a swim coach with alleged links to iffy practice in Australian elite swimming.
To me and I`m sure many others that lots more than enough to red flag Sky .

Post 115 here lists the races Fabio was on this year : http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17976&page=12

 

[sittingbison]

To be clear with you. The Aussie track team under Walsh was rife with drugs. I saw it with my own eyes.

The Brits tried to lure Walsh from Australia and built their model based on Australia's. Australia was government funded as was the British model using a portion of lottery money.

As an FYI Walsh was a swim coach.

Yup, I agree and it was a real pity seeing the roid rage in action with track stars and gold medallists - hulking acne covered sprinters. And Charlie Walsh sure had a decisive nature, you were either with him or against him, Charlie's Angels - no middle ground.

 

[The Hitch]

User Guide - this is a tough one. I had to rip my head out of the sand not so long ago regarding SKY.

If their clean answer the questions. Simple. Given the history of the sport and whats happening now its not unreasonable to be asking a lot of questions.

Unfortunately in the UK we are still being spoon fed the hero worship from the press. 'Sir Chris Hoy - knight of the relm' 'lovely little Laura Trott and her new fella' 'Arise Sir Bradly' 'The Genius of Brailsfords marginal gains'

You need to take a step back from the adulation being heaped on British cycling and accept some of the flaws in there case.

I wouldnt take the insults to heart. Some people are just frustrated that its USPS happening all over again in a different guise.

The big point for me was how both bbc commentators and then a daily mail "veteran" sports journalists covering his 10th olympics, when on as a guest for the bbc, said Makhloufi was doping.

The Makhloufi doping comments actually spanned 4 days, and every day they did it again, so clearly no one at the bbc thought there was anything wrong with it.

Another british newspaper had this to say
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-win-met-with-growing-scepticism-8022817.html

So, if it is perfectly ok for British commentators and journalists to accuse a Algerian runner of doping because he won an event, nowhere near the world record, by a handful of seconds, and NO ONE sees anything wrong with it, then surely we should also be able to throw the same questions at British athletes who are just as dominant?

 

[noddy69]

The big point for me was how both bbc commentators and then a daily mail "veteran" sports journalists covering his 10th olympics, when on as a guest for the bbc, said Makhloufi was doping.

The Makhloufi doping comments actually spanned 4 days, and every day they did it again, so clearly no one at the bbc thought there was anything wrong with it.

Another british newspaper had this to say
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-win-met-with-growing-scepticism-8022817.html

So, if it is perfectly ok for British commentators and journalists to accuse a Algerian runner of doping because he won an event, nowhere near the world record, by a handful of seconds, and NO ONE sees anything wrong with it, then surely we should also be able to throw the same questions at British athletes who are just as dominant?

Certainly, when those results come completely out of the blue and are in stark contrast to what they have achieved in the past, or shown the potential to achieve. As long there is circumstantial evidence through abnormal performance for a particular athlete then fire away.

 

[sittingbison]

As well as Leinders, there's also Dr. Fabio Bartalucci served notice by Italian prosecutors back in 2001 when he was Doc with the Bonjour: team.http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2001/agosto/18/Sono_gli_avvisi_garanzia_per_co_0_0108188088.shtml

This was mentioned in the Gert Leinders thread but for some reason fell of the radar a bit quick.
So in fact when it comes to " dodgy " we have TWO doctors , Sean Yates with a previous positive as a rider and plenty of history involved with Armstrong , a certain Australian DS who has managed to stay of the radar yet ask any honest uk pro from the late 80,s, early 90,s and they,l tell ya that was more luck than integrity and Kerrison, a swim coach with alleged links to iffy practice in Australian elite swimming.
To me and I`m sure many others that lots more than enough to red flag Sky .

Post 115 here lists the races Fabio was on this year : http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17976&page=12

No no no Darryl, you are completely mistaken with all that circumstantial evidence red flagging TeamSKY. Krebs Cycle has declared over in the cadence thread it is all film flam and he can prove it, after all he is a scientist, and has a PhD.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Some people are just frustrated that its USPS happening all over again in a different guise.

Cycling fans and British cycling fans need to remember their Karl Marx.

Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. Caussidière for Danton, Louis Blanc for Robespierre, the Montagne of 1848 to 1851 for the Montagne of 1793 to 1795, the nephew for the uncle.

Brailsford for Brunyeel, Leinders for Ferrari, the summer of 2012 for the summers of 1999 to 2006, Wiggins for Armstrong.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Cycling fans and British cycling fans need to remember their Karl Marx.

British cycling fans probably remember the dark days of the Atlanta Olympics, where Britain was crap and if that wasn't enough, have suffered years of disappointment from England's football campaigns.

Thus, unlike the "Real Cycling Fans" who inhabit this parish, there is probably little appetite to remember anything that might spoil the party.

 

[the big ring]

British cycling fans probably remember the dark days of the Atlanta Olympics, where Britain was crap and if that wasn't enough, have suffered years of disappointment from England's football campaigns.

Thus, unlike the "Real Cycling Fans" who inhabit this parish, there is probably little appetite to remember anything that might spoil the party.

honesty looks good on you

 

[ferryman]

British cycling fans probably remember the dark days of the Atlanta Olympics, where Britain was crap and if that wasn't enough, have suffered years of disappointment from England's football campaigns.

Thus, unlike the "Real Cycling Fans" who inhabit this parish, there is probably little appetite to remember anything that might spoil the party.

Oh deary fookin deary me. I pity, I really do. The Anglish mentality is a wonderfully fooked up mesh of self loathing because we are the greatest but don't always show it. But when we do....fook let us shout the loudest.

 

[The Hitch]

Certainly, when those results come completely out of the blue and are in stark contrast to what they have achieved in the past, or shown the potential to achieve. As long there is circumstantial evidence through abnormal performance for a particular athlete then fire away.

As there clearly is with wiggins froome mo farah and usain bolt. But it seems to be the ultimate taboo to many to say so much as a word about the English speaking ones yet perfectly ok to do so about the Algerian.

 

[LeLanternRouge]

As there clearly is with wiggins froome mo farah and usain bolt. But it seems to be the ultimate taboo to many to say so much as a word about the English speaking ones yet perfectly ok to do so about the Algerian.

Disclaimer: I am a Usain Bolt fan.

I would not include Bolt in that list, for the simple fact that his junior results outstrip anything ever seen with regard to sprinting at a junior level. You could compare him to LeMond in that regard: he wasn't just a prodigy, he was THE prodigy.

 

[simo1733]

Disclaimer: I am a Usain Bolt fan.

I would not include Bolt in that list, for the simple fact that his junior results outstrip anything ever seen with regard to sprinting at a junior level. You could compare him to LeMond in that regard: he wasn't just a prodigy, he was THE prodigy.

Usain Bolt does not appear in the top 10 fastest 100m times for junior or youth according to wikipaedia?

 

[JimmyFingers]

The big point for me was how both bbc commentators and then a daily mail "veteran" sports journalists covering his 10th olympics, when on as a guest for the bbc, said Makhloufi was doping.

The Makhloufi doping comments actually spanned 4 days, and every day they did it again, so clearly no one at the bbc thought there was anything wrong with it.

Another british newspaper had this to say
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-win-met-with-growing-scepticism-8022817.html

So, if it is perfectly ok for British commentators and journalists to accuse a Algerian runner of doping because he won an event, nowhere near the world record, by a handful of seconds, and NO ONE sees anything wrong with it, then surely we should also be able to throw the same questions at British athletes who are just as dominant?

This is probably true, just as it's true of any nation's sport broadcasters and sports journalists. You are saying this about the BBC because you watched the BBC's coverage. If you are going to smear British journalism then you need to be able to compare it to other countries. Did you watch the Chinese coverage, or the Russian, or the American? How about French, German, Italian or Jamaican? I don't think you can sit there and say this holier-than-thou sermon unless you can compare different country's press. One obvious paradigm would be to say the Italian press favour Italian-speaking athletes, Russian press favour Russian speaking athletes and so on. Partisan press coverage of a sporting event is hardly unusual and to plonk this attack on the British press in the Sky thread demonstrates a one-sided, myopic approach.

If you come on this forum and say 'you've got it in for the Brits' you get the trolls frothing at the mouth calling you 'fanboy' but there is a weight of anti-British posts here and this is symptomatic of that. You want to make this point stick, compare the BBC's reporting of the games to whatever Chinese TV network covered it for them. This is lazy thinking, simply tossing around accusations around with very little to back it up.

A Russian politician accused the British of manipulating results in the boxing in order to make sure Britain stayed 3rd in the medal table. That is how partisan other countries can be, not even the press this time, but a politician.I would be interested to know how the Russian press treated this, and the rest of the games. perhaps you can find out.

You seem to want the Brits to be whiter-than-white, we're not,we're jongoistic and partisan as the next nation. It doesn't make us demonic, just human

 

[Parker]

Usain Bolt does not appear in the top 10 fastest 100m times for junior or youth according to wikipaedia?

He wasn't a 100m runner as a junior - never ran it until 2007. He did 200m & 400m as a junior but never really liked 400m. His 200m performances were stunning (youngest ever junior world champion in any event)

 

[sittingbison]

Cycling fans and British cycling fans need to remember their Asterix the (Charlie) Gaul...

Fixed

 

[Paco_P]

This is probably true, just as it's true of any nation's sport broadcasters and sports journalists. You are saying this about the BBC because you watched the BBC's coverage. If you are going to smear British journalism then you need to be able to compare it to other countries. Did you watch the Chinese coverage, or the Russian, or the American? How about French, German, Italian or Jamaican? I don't think you can sit there and say this holier-than-thou sermon unless you can compare different country's press. One obvious paradigm would be to say the Italian press favour Italian-speaking athletes, Russian press favour Russian speaking athletes and so on. Partisan press coverage of a sporting event is hardly unusual and to plonk this attack on the British press in the Sky thread demonstrates a one-sided, myopic approach.

If you come on this forum and say 'you've got it in for the Brits' you get the trolls frothing at the mouth calling you 'fanboy' but there is a weight of anti-British posts here and this is symptomatic of that. You want to make this point stick, compare the BBC's reporting of the games to whatever Chinese TV network covered it for them. This is lazy thinking, simply tossing around accusations around with very little to back it up.

A Russian politician accused the British of manipulating results in the boxing in order to make sure Britain stayed 3rd in the medal table. That is how partisan other countries can be, not even the press this time, but a politician.I would be interested to know how the Russian press treated this, and the rest of the games. perhaps you can find out.

You seem to want the Brits to be whiter-than-white, we're not,we're jongoistic and partisan as the next nation. It doesn't make us demonic, just human

Compare the British coverage of Luis Aragones and John Terry.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Compare the British coverage of Luis Aragones and John Terry.

I'm not sure what your point is the British media are scathing of Terry and in the reports of his international retirement that I have read it is as seen an attempt to play the victim when he was at fault. Apart from Chelsea fans he is roundly disliked by football fans.

 

[noddy69]

As there clearly is with wiggins froome mo farah and usain bolt. But it seems to be the ultimate taboo to many to say so much as a word about the English speaking ones yet perfectly ok to do so about the Algerian.

I dont disagree that the ones mentioned are suspect, yet with the algerian it was completely out of the blue, he came to the olympics without a prayer and left the champion. When the commentators were saying they could not believe what they were seeing they were in complete shock and it was not just the brits.

It would be akin to nicholas roche suddenly becoming a time trial specialist at the tour . The surprise could not be covered up in any way as past performance in races would say it could not be done. With the others they have all in some way shown progress and not suddenly appeared on the scene.
Still agree with the sentiment though.