Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[armchairclimber]

Simple question . Assuming your not naive enough to believe we now have a clean peoloton what % advantage do you think/ believe those Gt gc contenders that dope are gaining from doping above there natural clean ability ?
On what do you base your assertion that doping advantages are " mitigated" and what exactly do you mean by mitigated?

It's not an assumption. Get over her infidelity...if you love her, you'll have to trust her a bit. If not, I hear Golf is a good clean sport.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Actually, he was a clean rider putting in a performance that marked him out as a future champion in 2009. In 2012, with doping advantages mitigated to a fair degree, he just delivered on that promise. It's that simple. It's ironic really that a few clinicians don't understand the positive implications.
There's a good reason I guess...you discovered that your girlfriend was screwing someone else. You love her but you can't help checking up on her text messages and putting a keystroke logger on her laptop...no matter how much she says she loves you, you'll never ever feel the benefit. You'll always always imagine that she is cheating, even when she is just out on the lash with her mates. That's the real crime of Armstrong, the UCI and all the other cheating barstewards.

"Hi sweetie, im going to be a few hours late. I have 2 meet Dr Leinders again, nothing to worry about. Don't wait up. XOXO"

 

[hrotha]

It's not an assumption. Get over her infidelity...if you love her, you'll have to trust her a bit. If not, I hear Golf is a good clean sport.

That's the worst analogy I've ever seen in the Clinic.

 

[Darryl Webster]

It's not an assumption. Get over her infidelity...if you love her, you'll have to trust her a bit. If not, I hear Golf is a good clean sport.

Your not answering the question. For those contenders that do dope what advantage % wise do you think they gain over there natural ability? ..any idea?.. 1%..3%... 5%.. more than 5%?

And what does mitigated mean?
Are you interested in the debate or do you just want us be " trusting"?

 

[sairyder]

That's the worst analogy I've ever seen in the Clinic.

horrible analogy! - agree with you there

 

[Hugh Januss]

Thankfully, it's not the job of this forum to provide proof. I look forward to wiggum being found out, in maybe ten or fifteen years time, and stripped of his titles. In the meantime, I try to enjoy cycling for what it is. (Admittedly, my main problem with wiggins is not that he's a doper, but that he's a boring and hypocritical doper.)

I have to disagree here. I do not look forward to Wigans and the rest of Sky eventually being found out, sadly I think it is inevitable, but I don't look forward to it. What I look forward to is a time when we can believe what we are seeing is real human competition and not some sort of combination of that and doping Drs. bench racing.

 

[doolols]

I still don't understand what evidence the pro dopers have.

He won the TdF. Did he win by racing off up the mountains? No. He won by a time trial (don't forget, folks, that he's spent years perfecting his time trialling / pursuit techniques), and by having a team around him that dragged him up the steep stuff. Boring, yes. Analytical, yes. Opportunitive (no Schlecks / Contador, and a long ITT), yes. Doping? No. His performances were good, but not unreal.

 

[SocratesJohnson]

I still don't understand what evidence the pro dopers have.

He won the TdF. Did he win by racing off up the mountains? No. He won by a time trial (don't forget, folks, that he's spent years perfecting his time trialling / pursuit techniques), and by having a team around him that dragged him up the steep stuff. Boring, yes. Analytical, yes. Opportunitive (no Schlecks / Contador, and a long ITT), yes. Doping? No. His performances were good, but not unreal.

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next man but i have to agree, Wiggins won the tdf in 2012 because everyone else was poor. Very very poor. Cadel looked sick from the start. Voeckler was in the running for far longer than normal.

I think everyone cut back doping on the tour for 2012 big time, there is a good argument to be had that sky didn't improve just everyone else fell back.

p.s. excluding froome

 

[doolols]

p.s. excluding froome

He is the one question mark for me. Maybe the biggest question mark.

 

[armchairclimber]

Your not answering the question. For those contenders that do dope what advantage % wise do you think they gain over there natural ability? ..any idea?.. 1%..3%... 5%.. more than 5%?

And what does mitigated mean?
Are you interested in the debate or do you just want us be " trusting"?

The % improvement will be different for each individual, clearly...though the times and performances suggest that the gains have reduced massively since the bio-passport was introduced.
I don't believe for one second that the peleton is clean. I doubt it ever will be...there's always someone looking for an edge of they think they can get away with it.
Wiggins IS clean though...don't know about the rest of the SKY team. I think we have had two consecutive TDFs won clean. Me...I like that.

Let me make one thing clear. I'm not a fan of Wiggins, he is too much of an **** for me. I'd have preferred he stayed with Garmin. As far as SKY are concerned, it would tickle me pink if they were popped and the SKY brand was dragged through the same crappy mire as NOTW, The Sun and Fox News.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Do people think that every Sky rider is using drugs or just the tour team ie like Lances teams?.

 

[Benotti69]

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next man but i have to agree, Wiggins won the tdf in 2012 because everyone else was poor. Very very poor. Cadel looked sick from the start. Voeckler was in the running for far longer than normal.

I think everyone cut back doping on the tour for 2012 big time, there is a good argument to be had that sky didn't improve just everyone else fell back.

p.s. excluding froome

Did you ask yourself, were the others poor or were sky so good.

Nibali top GT rider, won La Vuelta. Dropped by Wiggins in the mountains? How can that be? Wiggins is TTer.

all the other contenders blown out the back door by Sky! Why? Because they were poor! THe biggest race on the calendar and they turn up poorly!

Not buying that for a moment. Sky were too good. For whatever reason, and i dont believe it was due to clean cycling Sky were rocketing while others weren't. They weren't at 99-05 levels but they were rocketing.

McQuaid was all over Sky this year like a bad smell.

 

[Benotti69]

Do people think that every Sky rider is using drugs or just the tour team ie like Lances teams?.

Sky put together the GT team fro the TdF. They were imo PEDing. All the training on Tenerife together suggests it along with guys like Rogers riding better than he was when he was with T-Mobile and Porte having an outstanding year.

 

[ebandit]

healthy debate

He is the one question mark for me. Maybe the biggest question mark.

great! to see some healthy debate

another question mark is the overall strength of the sky team

and uran goes on and on.............performing at the highest level

it's sad to say but my gut feeling is that riders not doping in the tdf are in the minority

this is just a subjective view but i feel that in modern times riders in the tdf appear to be finishing looking far fresher

as to sky................if they doped proof will surface soon enough but for now there still is no proof

 

[Captain Sensible]

Sky put together the GT team fro the TdF. They were imo PEDing. All the training on Tenerife together suggests it along with guys like Rogers riding better than he was when he was with T-Mobile and Porte having an outstanding year.

Thanks for your reply .

 

[Benotti69]

Thanks for your reply .

There is no outstanding evidence for Sky's doping.

But this is cycling. We have been sold new eras where the performances are clean. I wont fall for that again.

They hired Leinders whose reputation is not clean. They have refused to explain why they hired him except some pathetic idea about a virus on a GT, which he is an expert on! They also signed Bartalucci who was involved in doping in Italy and then cleared, but lots of things get cleared in Italy that are dirty.

They have made a few comparisons with USPS of their abilities and Brailsford has readily accepted plaudits from Bruyneel.

They have remained very quiet on the recent USADA investigation, which is strange consdiering they wote a tome for clean cycling and proclaimed they were goann be the cleanest of the clean but have not welcomed the USADA investigation and its findings!

Michael Ashenden recently wrote that the dark era of cycling has not passed it simpy has a new guise.

This to me is extremely damning of Sky. If the dark era is not gone, then you can still only win the TdF on dope, which when you look at the TdF the strongest team by a mile was Sky.

Then we have to look at rider's performances. Wiggins a GT winner late in his career! Rogers performance better than his T-Mobile days. Porte riding so well etc etc

 

[SocratesJohnson]

Did you ask yourself, were the others poor or were sky so good.

Nibali top GT rider, won La Vuelta. Dropped by Wiggins in the mountains? How can that be? Wiggins is TTer.

all the other contenders blown out the back door by Sky! Why? Because they were poor! THe biggest race on the calendar and they turn up poorly!

Not buying that for a moment. Sky were too good. For whatever reason, and i dont believe it was due to clean cycling Sky were rocketing while others weren't. They weren't at 99-05 levels but they were rocketing.

McQuaid was all over Sky this year like a bad smell.

Human history (sport and in general) shows us a basic truth that people will crap all over others to get land/power/money/fame/adulation. Given that the survival of the species is founded on exploiting others it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that "alphas" in all spheres will do whatever they can to succeed, e.g. bill clinton "never had sexual relations with that woman", george bush "there are weapons of mass destruction" in iraq, lance "you dont believe in miracles".

So we are right to be wary! Do i transfer money to the nigerian man who has come into a fortune and needs my account details? Do i swap my cow for a set of magic beans? Do i think the UK track cycling team won lots of olympic medals because they keep their wheels clean in a bag? No i dont.

I think pretty much everyone who reads the clinic would agree with the above?!

To answer your points. I think the tdf 2012 was a bore fest, sky plodded round, no one attacked them, the course was easy, decent TTs, i dont think the results they are showing are actually that good, could you not also say the people they dropped all seemed to have lost form from recent years? If Kloden, Van Garderen, Menchov or Roland/Voeckler had won would you be saying "they have improved too much"? I'm not saying they are dirty or clean, but winning the weakest tour for decades almost by default isn't the silver bullet for me.

Employing Lienders and Froome being too improved are however concerns.

As for McQuaid, he is like a fly on ****. I bet he supports the New York Yankees, Juventus and ManUtd too.

 

[sittingbison]

I'd swap MY cow for a bag of magic beans

 

[ebandit]

a deal

I'd swap MY cow for a bag of magic beans

your on..........i hear that steak will help me ride faster

 

[Marco Pantani]

I chose the team because it is the best programme in the world right now

Dombrowski to win ToC next year.

 

[doolols]

Dombrowski to win ToC next year.

Yep. A shoe-in. I hate the fact they came from Bontrager-Livestrong. I just wish his name (and anything to do with it) could be expunged from the sport.

 

[Velo1ticker]

Do people think that every Sky rider is using drugs or just the tour team ie like Lances teams?.

I think people are mudslingers because their favorite italian, spanish or whatever have stopped winning. Now we see the best riders win unlike earlier. They simply can not grasp the fact thet they support dirtbage.

 

[hrotha]

I think people are mudslingers because their favorite italian, spanish or whatever have stopped winning. Now we see the best riders win unlike earlier. They simply can not grasp the fact thet they support dirtbage.

So the most naturally gifted cyclists all happen to be Anglos. From countries with far less tradition and licences than others.

 

[Benotti69]

I think people are mudslingers because their favorite italian, spanish or whatever have stopped winning. Now we see the best riders win unlike earlier. They simply can not grasp the fact thet they support dirtbage.

Best rider this Season, a certain Spaniard, Rodriguez.

A certain Spanish cyclist only started competing in August.

 

[Velo1ticker]

So the most naturally gifted cyclists all happen to be Anglos. From countries with far less tradition and licences than others.

Are you reffering to 3 ex dopers in the Vuelta? Spain and Italy have been very dominating and they have drugs to thank for that. You can see the results when the frence team stopped organized doping. No sign of stopping in Spain and Italy until this or maybe last year.

Let us turn the table: I'we seen the italian ski team during and after doping. In 1994 they won olymtic reley (m), now they have one good skiier left and no new talets are comming up the ranks.

It takes years to reach top international level so the Italians and Spanish need to cath up. Unless you think dopers perform at the same level after they stop taking dop? Then you must be on something?