Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

Did you guys talk about what happened to Froome in La Toussuire? We all saw it, and I doubt he was playing poker. Was that a side effect?

Tejay van Garderen's interview @ Velonews
VN: Did you see Froome as stronger than Wiggins?
Tejay: It was weird. There were a couple of times when it looked like Froome was in trouble. I remember on the stage to La Toussuire, he was dropped, and Wiggins was pulling on his own to get Nibali back. And then all of a sudden, Froome came up again, started setting pace and then dropped Wiggins. I was like, ‘weren’t you just getting dropped?’ .

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...ur-i-took-advantage-of-the-opportunity_248044

Its one of two things:

1) Method acting.

2) Reverse Periodisation during a race.

 

[ferryman]

Just finished Tyler's book. Not for the faint hearted. I know there is a sep thread but I thought the following quote is relevant in this thread from his summing up. No doubt pre TDF 2012:

'Overall, though things are moving in the right direction. You don't see whole teams dominate entire races as often as they used to. What's more, individual riders are having ups and downs; you can see that big efforts carry costs, exactly as they should.'.

1st, read the book. I'm old and stupid enough to recognise every pedal stroke he took in the book and believed in him at the time

2nd, my eyes are wide open and can't believe it is happening again with this lot.

 

[thehog]

The TeeJay interview is revealing. Backs up Basso's statements.

VN: From your perspective, just how strong was Sky during the Tour?

TvG: I have never seen anyone be able to control a race like that. The pace they were setting on the front was unbelievable. And they never panicked. You could throw everything at them. Even if it was a dangerous guy, like Nibali, they would be like, ‘let them go, we stay in our rhythm, and we’ll bring them back.’ And they always did. Some people said it was a boring Tour. You’ve got to hand it to them, the fact that they were able to make it boring like that, that they were so strong. It was not that Nibali didn’t want to attack. It’s not that Cadel didn’t want to attack. They just couldn’t. You cannot go over the top of 450 watts they set on the climb. It was not possible.

VN: What role do power meters play at that moment of the race? Is everyone just racing off their power meters once they’re on the big climbs, knowing that they can push a power threshold for a certain distance, and measure their tactics off that?


TvG: No, people do not race off their power meters. People know their bodies. If I am at my limit, I am breathing hard, my heart rate is through the roof, I am struggling to stay on the wheel, why would you attack? That would be the stupidest thing. You just try to stay where you are. That’s how it was. They had everyone on the ropes to the point where there was nowhere to go. You either stayed on the wheel, or you even drop off the wheel and try to limit your losses. That’s what everyone was doing. It came to a point when even Nibali, who was third, had to drop off of Sky’s pace and Wiggins and Froome just rode away.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...ur-i-took-advantage-of-the-opportunity_248044

 

[BroDeal]

The TeeJay interview is revealing. Backs up Basso's statements.

VN: From your perspective, just how strong was Sky during the Tour?

TvG: I have never seen anyone be able to control a race like that. The pace they were setting on the front was unbelievable. And they never panicked. You could throw everything at them. Even if it was a dangerous guy, like Nibali, they would be like, ‘let them go, we stay in our rhythm, and we’ll bring them back.’ And they always did. Some people said it was a boring Tour. You’ve got to hand it to them, the fact that they were able to make it boring like that, that they were so strong. It was not that Nibali didn’t want to attack. It’s not that Cadel didn’t want to attack. They just couldn’t. You cannot go over the top of 450 watts they set on the climb. It was not possible.

VN: What role do power meters play at that moment of the race? Is everyone just racing off their power meters once they’re on the big climbs, knowing that they can push a power threshold for a certain distance, and measure their tactics off that?


TvG: No, people do not race off their power meters. People know their bodies. If I am at my limit, I am breathing hard, my heart rate is through the roof, I am struggling to stay on the wheel, why would you attack? That would be the stupidest thing. You just try to stay where you are. That’s how it was. They had everyone on the ropes to the point where there was nowhere to go. You either stayed on the wheel, or you even drop off the wheel and try to limit your losses. That’s what everyone was doing. It came to a point when even Nibali, who was third, had to drop off of Sky’s pace and Wiggins and Froome just rode away.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...ur-i-took-advantage-of-the-opportunity_248044

Don't worry. Krebs Cycle will be along any moment to tell us our lying eyes did not see what they saw and everything is much cleaner now. TJ? That undereducated fool does not know what he is talking about.

 

[thehog]

Don't worry. Krebs Cycle will be along any moment to tell us our lying eyes did not see what they saw and everything is much cleaner now. TJ? That undereducated fool does not know what he is talking about.

Some people said it was a boring Tour. You’ve got to hand it to them, the fact that they were able to make it boring like that, that they were so strong. It was not that Nibali didn’t want to attack. It’s not that Cadel didn’t want to attack. They just couldn’t. You cannot go over the top of 450 watts they set on the climb. It was not possible.

Of course this can all be explained away with science.

This quote is scary. Sky didn't just do this on one stage. They did it on all stages. Day after day after day.

Incredible.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And you've no reason to doubt what the person from BSkyB told you (as in he or she is definitely someone who would know)? Sorry to pry, it just seems like this information is potentially a very important piece in the story.

If, and I repeat IF, Sky genuinely thought that the reason for their poor 2010 tour was due to other teams doping then you can begin to easily explain and understand how a doping programme started on the team. After all, they couldn't keep finishing 24th in the tour with Wiggins year after year and expect the money to keep rolling in from Sky. On the other hand, you have Wiggo's 2009 tour performance, and if we assume he achieved that by riding clean with Garmin, then the idea that Sky simply got things badly wrong in 2010 gains significant credibility.

No. Wiggins was doped in 2009. Compare Tyler's account of Riis' transformation in 1993 to that of Wiggins' transformation in 2009. Almost identical timelines and results.

 

[BigBoat]

Lance could average 460 watts in flat TTs during his day, and closer to 500 on shorter climbs. At 2 kg lighter I feel that Bradley Wiggins has a slightly higher w/kg than Lance did or the same w/kg atleast. Froome and Contador too.

Why do VAM power estimates yield lower w/kgs....? Much of that could be due to simple atmospherics and road surfaces. I often find that power estimates on my local climbs lead to lower readings then I get on my SRM PM simply due to the variations in wind and grade. Its very hard to take into account every steep pitch thats 20 meters long.... and flat sections....there's no way to simulate that gust of wind that hits your face for 10 seconds and costs you 30 watts of steam. Or the 10 foot long pitch of crappy road surface, or the manhole covers you ride over in the road. The variables of power prediction are endless, so I would go by quoted power data from PMs rather than estimates.

You also have to consider race strategy. Grand Tour climbs in recent years have stared much slower than they used to in the old days, often times you still see a big group riding together 3/4 the way up. Their obviously using much different tactics than years past.

And the quoted data on Wiggins is that he averaged 480 watts+ for 20 mins during his UK TT when not even in top form...

 

[blackcat]

wiggo no match for a full strength armstrong ullrich basso landis contador ashleck

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Lance could average 460 watts in flat TTs during his day, and closer to 500 on shorter climbs. At 2 kg lighter I feel that Bradley Wiggins has a slightly higher w/kg than Lance did or the same w/kg atleast. Froome and Contador too.

In his day, Lance was climbing Alpe D'Huez type climbs at 6.3/6.4 watts per kilogramme.

Wiggo has never been clocked at over 5.9 for an equivalent climb, as far as I recall from the "Power estimates" thread. (Froome was estimated at slightly over 6 in the Angliru stage of last year's Vuelta.)

So, Wiggo may not be clean, but he's certainly climbing a lot slower than Lance et al were in the old days. In last year's Tour, the ascent of ADH took ~42 minutes for the contenders, whereas in the Lance/Mig era, sub 39 minute ascents were commonplace. (I assume here that Wiggo would have been competitive with last year's contenders in the mountains, even though he'd crashed out by then.) I don't think last year's 42 minutes was a soft time, as Contador attacked at the bottom and the contenders were all pretty much on their knees by the finish.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

In his day, Lance was climbing Alpe D'Huez type climbs at 6.3/6.4 watts per kilogramme.

Wiggo has never been clocked at over 5.9 for an equivalent climb, as far as I recall from the "Power estimates" thread. (Froome was estimated at slightly over 6 in the Angliru stage of last year's Vuelta.)

So, Wiggo may not be clean, but he's certainly climbing a lot slower than Lance et al were in the old days. In last year's Tour, the ascent of ADH took ~42 minutes for the contenders, whereas in the Lance/Mig era, sub 39 minute ascents were commonplace.

You only have to look at Brad's TT to see he has more W/kg than Froome. Froome who beat him in last year's Vuelta TT. Brad was 2% faster in 2012, requiring 6% more power from Froome to match Brad's time. Froome was second. Porte at 5th needs 10% more power.

(My theory): people (the public) can work out rider power via VAM guesstimates, so they use their PMs to keep the performance on the climbs "normal". My theory extends to Froome, who constantly watches his PM. Froome appears to be the better climber, but watch the end of the climb though, when Wiggins goes to the front and nails Nibali to the wall.

Wiggins has more power than Froome no question. Plus he's taller, with the same build, so that weight (for the P:W calculations) actually contains more bone and connective tissue and less corresponding muscle.

 

[Parrulo]

The TeeJay interview is revealing. Backs up Basso's statements.

VN: From your perspective, just how strong was Sky during the Tour?

TvG: I have never seen anyone be able to control a race like that. The pace they were setting on the front was unbelievable. And they never panicked. You could throw everything at them. Even if it was a dangerous guy, like Nibali, they would be like, ‘let them go, we stay in our rhythm, and we’ll bring them back.’ And they always did. Some people said it was a boring Tour. You’ve got to hand it to them, the fact that they were able to make it boring like that, that they were so strong. It was not that Nibali didn’t want to attack. It’s not that Cadel didn’t want to attack. They just couldn’t. You cannot go over the top of 450 watts they set on the climb. It was not possible.

VN: What role do power meters play at that moment of the race? Is everyone just racing off their power meters once they’re on the big climbs, knowing that they can push a power threshold for a certain distance, and measure their tactics off that?


TvG: No, people do not race off their power meters. People know their bodies. If I am at my limit, I am breathing hard, my heart rate is through the roof, I am struggling to stay on the wheel, why would you attack? That would be the stupidest thing. You just try to stay where you are. That’s how it was. They had everyone on the ropes to the point where there was nowhere to go. You either stayed on the wheel, or you even drop off the wheel and try to limit your losses. That’s what everyone was doing. It came to a point when even Nibali, who was third, had to drop off of Sky’s pace and Wiggins and Froome just rode away.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...ur-i-took-advantage-of-the-opportunity_248044

i don't even know how to qualify this interview, somewhere btw scary in terms of what the future holds for us and depressing.

nibali is no contador but by no means a bad climber either, in 09 he outclimbed wiggins on all the mountain stages bar arcalis.

comes 2012 and a clearly better already established GT rider nibali is having to kill himself just to hold wiggins wheel. are we really supposed to believe that wiggins had more room of improvement btw the age of 29 to 32 then nibali did from 24 to 27? during the entire tour nibali only put wiggins in trouble for a few K on la toussuire, on the rest of the tour wiggins was in no trouble at all, even on Peyresourde when nibali put froome on serious trouble close to the top and even dropped him a bit wiggins just dug a little bit deeper and didn't drop a single centimeter, and nibali was going fast enough to put nearly a minute on every other "contender" so the pace couldn't be that low.

the level of dominance wiggins/sky showed on this tour were comparable to contador on the giro 2011 and higher then contador and schleck on the 2010 tour, taking into account contador and schleck are the 2 best GT riders in the world and that till last year could drop wiggins pretty much at will on high mountain stages this makes wiggins/sky performance even more unbelievable.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

(My theory): people (the public) can work out rider power via VAM guesstimates, so they use their PMs to keep the performance on the climbs "normal". My theory extends to Froome, who constantly watches his PM. Froome appears to be the better climber, but watch the end of the climb though, when Wiggins goes to the front and nails Nibali to the wall.

I like this theory. (Don't know if it's true, though!) By riding steady tempo on the climbs to give believable climbing speeds they don't raise obvious red flags and also save themselves for the TTs, where power estimates are so much harder. Fast TT performances can be more easily explained as "superior position on bike" to reduce drag, whereas gravity is gravity.

 

[Ferminal]

i don't even know how to qualify this interview, somewhere btw scary in terms of what the future holds for us and depressing.

nibali is no contador but by no means a bad climber either, in 09 he outclimbed wiggins on all the mountain stages bar arcalis.

comes 2012 and a clearly better already established GT rider nibali is having to kill himself just to hold wiggins wheel. are we really supposed to believe that wiggins had more room of improvement btw the age of 29 to 32 then nibali did from 24 to 27? during the entire tour nibali only put wiggins in trouble for a few K on la toussuire, on the rest of the tour wiggins was in no trouble at all, even on Peyresourde when nibali put froome on serious trouble close to the top and even dropped him a bit wiggins just dug a little bit deeper and didn't drop a single centimeter, and nibali was going fast enough to put nearly a minute on every other "contender" so the pace couldn't be that low.

the level of dominance wiggins/sky showed on this tour were comparable to contador on the giro 2011 and higher then contador and schleck on the 2010 tour, taking into account contador and schleck are the 2 best GT riders in the world and that till last year could drop wiggins pretty much at will on high mountain stages this makes wiggins/sky performance even more unbelievable.

Nibali probably had the better program in 2009, and hasn't made any major improvements to it since then.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think people are forgetting Wiggo's win was a team effort, huge turns on the front by EBH, Porte, Rogers at the early stages of the climbs to pull the teeth of the other contenders, with Froome taking over in the higher stages. Nibali didn't get anything like the level of support from Liquigas, and couldn't isolate Wiggins at any point, despite trying again and again.

It's very dangerous to try to use a very simplistic analysis of relative performances and use it to back up suspicions. Some here seem to think performance is set in stone from the moment you go pro to the moment you retire, and any improvement or indeed deterioration is considered indicative of doping.

It also doesn't take account of other factors, like team tactics, which further obscure individual performances. That is why you have the ITT, the race of truth.

And for all the frothing at the mouth the climb of Roche de Belle Filles caused, when Sky shredded the peloton, it was a short climb and saw each team member burn themselves up for a 1k before dropping back, none of it physiologically improbable

 

[RichWalk]

I think people are forgetting Wiggo's win was a team effort, huge turns on the front by EBH, Porte, Rogers at the early stages of the climbs to pull the teeth of the other contenders, with Froome taking over in the higher stages. Nibali didn't get anything like the level of support from Liquigas, and couldn't isolate Wiggins at any point, despite trying again and again.

It's very dangerous to try to use a very simplistic analysis of relative performances and use it to back up suspicions. Some here seem to think performance is set in stone from the moment you go pro to the moment you retire, and any improvement or indeed deterioration is considered indicative of doping.

It also doesn't take account of other factors, like team tactics, which further obscure individual performances. That is why you have the ITT, the race of truth.

And for all the frothing at the mouth the climb of Roche de Belle Filles caused, when Sky shredded the peloton, it was a short climb and saw each team member burn themselves up for a 1k before dropping back, none of it physiologically improbable

That all looks good on paper, however how often with all the factors in place you mention have you watched a GT where so many support and contender riders from one team all managed to hit spectacular form at just the right time?
Taken in isolation there are many supportive factors, some of which you mention however based on the last 20 yrs of so, Sky's commercial aims/gains, then top riders like Basso, Nibali and TJ all describing their performances as 'unbelievable' surely you can establish reasons why many here are at best suspicious.

 

[thehog]

Cameras where with him all the time as they produced the series on Sky's Athlantic Channel and their way to TDF. It's all well documented...

QSQS had cameras on the all year round as well for a documentary (good doco mind you).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=78ZXSjDNpBE

Does that mean they're not doping either?

Who needs anti-doping testing. When you have documentary film makers.

 

[JRanton]

You only have to look at Brad's TT to see he has more W/kg than Froome. Froome who beat him in last year's Vuelta TT. Brad was 2% faster in 2012, requiring 6% more power from Froome to match Brad's time. Froome was second. Porte at 5th needs 10% more power.

(My theory): people (the public) can work out rider power via VAM guesstimates, so they use their PMs to keep the performance on the climbs "normal". My theory extends to Froome, who constantly watches his PM. Froome appears to be the better climber, but watch the end of the climb though, when Wiggins goes to the front and nails Nibali to the wall.

Wiggins has more power than Froome no question. Plus he's taller, with the same build, so that weight (for the P:W calculations) actually contains more bone and connective tissue and less corresponding muscle.

Dr. Ferrari made the following observation after La Planche Des Belles Filles stage:

The Sky riders are pedaling uphill with very high cadences of pedaling (often over 100 RPM), which seem quite excessive in relation to the power outputs, around 420-440W: either these athletes are riding below their limit, or the asymmetrical chainrings used by most of them require higher cadences in order to get the best out of them.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=131

 

[JRanton]

Froome actually worries me (a lot) more than Wiggins in some ways. He was quite clearly riding within his limits on LPDBF, setting pace on the front for 2km with the likes of Nibali pulling faces behind and then to use his own words, ''gave it a little kick'' on the super steep section at the top to make the 2011 winner look like a mug. And whilst all that was going on the vast majority of the other contenders had long since lost contact further down the climb, unable to follow the pace.

And then there are his TT performances, second best in the tour and his bronze medal at the Olympics, all achieved despite his horrible position on the bike. It just doesn't seem particularly normal to me.

I'd be very interested to have a look at his bio-passport over the last 18 months especially considering his problems with Bilharzia.

 

[Gregga]

Froome actually worries me (a lot) more than Wiggins in some ways. He was quite clearly riding within his limits on LPDBF, setting pace on the front for 2km with the likes of Nibali pulling faces behind and then to use his own words, ''gave it a little kick'' on the super steep section at the top to make the 2011 winner look like a mug. And whilst all that was going on the vast majority of the other contenders had long since lost contact further down the climb, unable to follow the pace.

And then there are his TT performances, second best in the tour and his bronze medal at the Olympics, all achieved despite his horrible position on the bike. It just doesn't seem particularly normal to me.

I'd be very interested to have a look at his bio-passport over the last 18 months especially considering his problems with Bilharzia.

"not normal" indeed

 

[RichWalk]

"When the blood passport was introduced it was also more than anything a PR thing and most disconcerting when the first five riders were banned on the basis of their blood profiles all were riding on teams whose sponsors had terminated their commitment and announced their withdrawal from the sport.

"Similarly in 2008 those who were popped for CERA all happened to be riding with teams whose sponsors who prior to the Tour had decided to leave the sport, Saunier Duval and Gerolsteiner.

"In light of this I find it hard to accept that the TV channel Sky - who also pays for rights to broadcast the Tour Down under 2012 for instance - is allowed to not only sponsor British Cycling but a Pro-Tour team as well.

from a Verner Moller interview by FMK on SB Nation

 

[The Hitch]

So, Wiggo may not be clean, but he's certainly climbing a lot slower than Lance et al were in the old days.

Of course he is. If you doped a cat 2 rider to 60% hematocrit he also wouldnt be able to match lance or pantanis time up alpe. Doesnt mean he is clean.

 

[thehog]

I think people are forgetting Wiggo's win was a team effort, huge turns on the front by EBH, Porte, Rogers at the early stages of the climbs to pull the teeth of the other contenders, with Froome taking over in the higher stages. Nibali didn't get anything like the level of support from Liquigas, and couldn't isolate Wiggins at any point, despite trying again and again.

It's very dangerous to try to use a very simplistic analysis of relative performances and use it to back up suspicions. Some here seem to think performance is set in stone from the moment you go pro to the moment you retire, and any improvement or indeed deterioration is considered indicative of doping.

It also doesn't take account of other factors, like team tactics, which further obscure individual performances. That is why you have the ITT, the race of truth.

And for all the frothing at the mouth the climb of Roche de Belle Filles caused, when Sky shredded the peloton, it was a short climb and saw each team member burn themselves up for a 1k before dropping back, none of it physiologically improbable

So 2012 was the first time you were allowed to use a team?

What team tactics were there? No one could attack to implement any tactics!

Porte, Rogers and Froome are just as worrying as Wiggins. To the point (in the words of their compeitors) nobody could attack.

2011 Tour winner, 2010 Vuelta winner made to look stupid by doms. Never seen anything like it my life.

Ever.

 

[RichWalk]

So 2012 was the first time you were allowed to use a team?

What team tactics were there? No one could attack to implement any tactics!

Porte, Rogers and Froome are just as worrying as Wiggins. To the point (in the words of their compeitors) nobody could attack.

2011 Tour winner, 2010 Vuelta winner made to look stupid by doms. Never seen anything like it my life.

Ever.

*Nothing* suspicious there then, move along

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Of course he is. If you doped a cat 2 rider to 60% hematocrit he also wouldnt be able to match lance or pantanis time up alpe. Doesnt mean he is clean.

Quite so. But what that has to do with Wiggins, I know not. Cat 2 riders don't tend to win many medals on the track in the OGs, do they?

My observation was in response to BigBoat's comment about Wiggo having a higher power to weight ratio than Lance. If he did, he'd climb faster than Lance, but he's about 10% slower up hills than Lance, from which it's safe to conclude that Wiggo's power to weight ratio is less than Lance's.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Quite so. But what that has to do with Wiggins, I know not. Cat 2 riders don't tend to win many medals on the track in the OGs, do they?

My observation was in response to BigBoat's comment about Wiggo having a higher power to weight ratio than Lance. If he did, he'd climb faster than Lance, but he's about 10% slower up hills than Lance, from which it's safe to conclude that Wiggo's power to weight ratio is less than Lance's.

This kind of comparison leads to some unintended consequences if anyone wants to maintain Wiggo was riding clean. I don't think there is any doubt Wonderboy's best times were fully-fueled-UCI-blessed-PED fireworks. You are comparing those times to a guy who is supposed to be clean.

If you want to compare times to a Lemond/Hinault/other/earlier, then I think you can try, but PED's are still in there meaningfully improving times set in post-EPO Grand Tours.