Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Velo_vicar]

Fran Millar ‏@franmillar
I have sent an email to lesli@cyclismas.com confirming Bradley and the other top 5 in GC were tested for blood and urine after the final TT

In the interests of balance, which i know is breaking the Clinic code.

 

[thehog]

Fran Millar ‏@franmillar
I have sent an email to lesli@cyclismas.com confirming Bradley and the other top 5 in GC were tested for blood and urine after the final TT

In the interests of balance, which i know is breaking the Clinic code.

I would agree. If you have a transfusion you don’t use a basic plaster to cover the hole. You need a full cotton ball to stem the blood flow. Unless it was from 2 days before thwe TT and he’s just stopping some of the leaking.

 

[Snafu352]

Be interesting to see if the cyclismas website posts the email from millar and perhaps acknowledges their jumping to conclusions?
Would be good to see some independent confirmation of the testing and also why the website made the statement that there was none.
This is pretty weak: "According to sources within the Tour de France, there wasn’t any blood drawn for anti-doping purposes on that day." but just about up to the usual standards of "proof" and "fact" in the clinic.

 

[JimmyFingers]

This has stirred a bit of business: http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/groundhog-day-for-cycling/

Are they in the UK? If not, libel laws are moot.

Wonder if she'll trade Brad's ABP blood values and some choice power files for a cyclismas phone number.

Good on her

 

[Catwhoorg]

‏@franmillar I have sent an email to lesli@cyclismas.com confirming Bradley and the other top 5 in GC were tested for blood and urine after the final TT

But yeah that was an obvious blood draw anyway. Been through enough of them in my life.

(edit I see I was scooped by VV)

 

[Snafu352]

Wonder if she'll trade Brad's ABP blood values and some choice power files for a cyclismas phone number.

Not sure that you and the clinic would like that trade after it was done!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Be interesting to see if the cyclismas website posts the email from millar and perhaps acknowledges their jumping to conclusions?
Would be good to see some independent confirmation of the testing and also why the website made the statement that there was none.
This is pretty weak: "According to sources within the Tour de France, there wasn’t any blood drawn for anti-doping purposes on that day." but just about up to the usual standards of "proof" and "fact" in the clinic.

Same goes for Fran & Sky.
Just because she sends a tweet and an email does not confirm anything.

Cyclismas say they have a source, she says they were tested.
I must admit I saw the piece yesterday and scanned through it and thought it was a little weak, but now some real money is in the pot and it is time for Fran to reveal her hand.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Not sure that you and the clinic would like that trade after it was done!

bring it!

 

[The Hitch]

Fran Millar ‏@franmillar
I have sent an email to lesli@cyclismas.com confirming Bradley and the other top 5 in GC were tested for blood and urine after the final TT

In the interests of balance, which i know is breaking the Clinic code.

I don't see you posting against sky so why are you.moaning that people who stand on the other side aren't posting in their favour?

 

[bpickford]

Is this discussion about the plaster for real? Like Tyler, if you were using needles, you would be paranoid about being discovered. You would not go on national TV in a short sleeved t-shirt in a plaster, nor would your team let you.

 

[the omertà hurts]

Do you really think that would make Cavendish look good?

"Mark wouldnt sign to say he hasnt been involved in doping so we had to let him go"

It makes him look like he has blood on his hands IMO.

maybe not the right place to ask this question, but have wondered recently why cavendish doesn't seem to get mentioned in all the speculation that gets knocked about here?

after all, he's had close links with self-confessed dopers Rolf Aldag, Zabel and Brian Holm, who he's just hooked back up with. Aldag and Holm said last year their proudest moment in cycling was helping Riis win TdF when they were all doped up to the gills at Telekom.

 

[Frosty]

maybe not the right place to ask this question, but have wondered recently why cavendish doesn't seem to get mentioned in all the speculation that gets knocked about here?

after all, he's had close links with self-confessed dopers Rolf Aldag, Zabel and Brian Holm, who he's just hooked back up with. Aldag and Holm said last year their proudest moment in cycling was helping Riis win TdF when they were all doped up to the gills at Telekom.

Maybe he isnt on drugs No idea myself whether he is or not but i dont think it should be assumed that he is on drugs or, if he is, why he should use the same preparation methods as everyone else. I dont think Aldag etc used the same preparation methods as Armstrong.

Besides what is there on Zabel apart from his confession to using EPO in 1997 for a few weeks. As in hard evidence, not just a case of him being in T-mobile so he must have doped. I know that its hard to believe that anyone doing well in the late 90s/early 00s was clean.

 

[Velo_vicar]

I don't see you posting against sky so why are you.moaning that people who stand on the other side aren't posting in their favour?

A little sensitive Hitch. i was just updating the tweeter feed so there was a complete view of what was being discussed. The balance wasn't pro v anti sky. i am pro clean cycling. if sky are found to have doped they should get everything coming to them. But if they are then it is going to be evidence that gets them not speculation. Ultimately It was the eye witnesses that got Armstrong not guessing or opinion. He jsut managed to sue and bully those eye witnesses so it has taken a while. But sky will fall or stand on actual evidence not on 'oh look a plaster' must be doping. 'oh look Tenerife' must doping. ''oh look winning' must be doping. 'oh look a bike' must be doping.

 

[ToreBear]

stage 11

The big Alps stage, on Glandon he took over from Knees(?) once Evans attacked. With Rogers on the front Evans went nowhere and soon out the back with many others, group was reduced to a dozen or so. He eased up after that but continued on the front until La Toussuire.

http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2012/us/stage-11/news.html

15:22 Knees takes over pacesetting duties
Boasson Hagen has led the peloton for the first 80km of the stage. He is no longer at the front of the bunch that is 2'30" behind the stage leaders. Instead it's Christian Knees of the Sky team who is followed by Rogers and Wiggins...

15:23 Gilbert and Boasson Hagen dropped
Gilbert (BMC) and Boasson Hagen (SKY) have just lost contact with the yellow jersey's peloton.

15:45 The 11 leaders of stage 11
Horner, Kern, Rolland, Martin, Kadri, Trofimov, Ten Dam, Kiryienka, Sorensen, Kessiakoff, Kisierlovski and Velits are the men in the lead of the 11th stage.
They are 4'10" ahead of the yellow jersey's peloton that continues to be led by Knees (SKY).

15:49 Van Garderen attacks peloton
Just as Riblon (ALM) was caught by the peloton, van Garderen (BMC) has gone on the attack. There was NO reaction at all from the Sky team to the acceleration by the rider in the white jersey.

15:52 Evans attack peloton
Evans (BMC) has attacked the peloton at the 81km mark.

15:53 Rogers leads chase
Rogers is leading the yellow jersey's chase of Evans but the Australian's surge is an impressive one. He has just caught Leipheimer and they have an advantage of about 100m on Wiggins.

15:54 12km to climb
Evans has left Leipheimer behind and the Australian defending champion is 10" ahead of the yellow jersey. Evans is now riding on the wheel of van Garderen.

15:55 Wiggins giving orders to Rogers
Wiggins can be seen issuing instructions to Rogers who is ahead of Porte and the yellow jersey. They are 15" behind Evans and van Garderen.

15:56 Still four Sky riders in pursuit
Evans is still following the wheel of van Garderen. The last time check had them 15" ahead of the four Sky riders: Rogers, Porte, Wiggins and Froome.

15:58 Evans at 3'30" from stage lead
Evans and van Garderen can only gain about 15" on the Sky team. The latest time check has the Evans 3'30" from the stage leaders and the Roger-led troop at 3'45".

15:59 Three BMC riding together
Moinard has been caught by van Garderen and Evans. The Frenchman was in the early attack and he's now pacing the best young rider and the man in second overall... but the Sky team seems able to limit its losses to this attack.
Evans is at 3'10" from the stage leaders.
Wiggins' group is at 3'30".

16:00 Moinard gone
Moinard is no longer with the Evans attack. Van Garderen is still ahead of his Australian team-mate and this pair has just caught Vinokourov.

16:01 Schleck and Zubeldia dropped
Schleck and Zubeldia have been dropped by the yellow jersey jersey's group.
Evans has had to call van Garderen back as the white jersey had opened a gap on his team leader.

16:04 Evans within sight of Wiggins
Wiggins group of eight can now see Evans and van Garderen who are now riding with Basso and Feillu.

16:04 The yellow jersey's group
The riders with yellow jersey group are:
Wiggins, Rogers, Porte, Froome, Nibali, Pinot, van den Broeck, Brajkovic...

16:05 Seven seconds gain for Evans...
Evans has gained only seven seconds with his move that started at the 81km mark. He's been on the attack for four kilometres and reached a maximum gain on Wiggins of 20".

16:07 Evans has been caught...
Evans' attack lasted 5km and he's now back with the yellow jersey. They are 2'55" behind the stage leaders.

16:09 Composition of the yellow jersey group
The riders in the group with Wiggins are:
Wiggins, Froome, Rogers, Porte, Evans, van Garderen, Basso, Nibali, Pinot, van den Broeck, Brajkovic...
They have just dropped Feillu and Vinokourov.

16:14 10 in yellow jersey group
The group with the yellow jersey is 10 strong. The men in this elite selection are:
Wiggins, Froome, Porte, Rogers, Evans, Van Garderen, Van den Broeck, Nibali, Brajkovic and Pinot.

16:20 Wiggins still has three team-mates...
Rogers is still at the front of the yellow jersey's group. Zubeldia is back with the gropu that is now composed of:
Wiggins, Rogers, Porte, Froom, Zubeldia, Evans, van Garderen, Nibali, Brajkovic, van de Broeck, and Pinot.

16:24 Result of col de la Croix de Fer
1. Rolland (EUC) 25pts
2. Kessiakoff (AST) 20pts
3. Velits (OPQ) 17pts - 10"
4. Horner (RNT) 14pts
5. Kisierlovski (AST) 12pts
6. Ten dam (RAB) 10pts
7. Martin (GRS) 8pts
8. Kiryienka (MOV) 6pts
9. Rogers (SKY) 4pts - at 2'10"
10. Wiggins (SKY) 2pts

16:22 Wiggins 2'05" behind
17:07 25km to go
Kiserlovski and Kiryienka are inside the final 25km. The yellow jersey's group continues to be led by Rogers and is 3'30" behind the Croatian and Belorussian stage leaders.

17:08 Four Sky riders at front of peloton...
There hasn't been an attack from Nibali on the descents of today's stage. There are currently four men from Sky leading the yellow jersey's group.

17:10 Wiggo's group inside final 25km
With 25km to go, the yellow jersey's group is 3'30" behind the four stage leaders... Kiserlovski, Kiryienka and Rolland have been caught by Sorensen.

17:12 Sharp left turn at it's all uphill...
The leaders have just passed the 20km to go sign. In two kilometres they'll take a sharp left turn and, boom: the road rises sharply again early and sends the riders up towards La Toussuire which is high above the town of St-Jean-de-Maurienne.

17:18 Four Sky riders lead peloton
Rogers is ahead of Porte who leads Froome then Wiggins at the front of the bunch that is now on the steep early part of the final climb.

17:20 Martin and Kessiakoff caught
The 'Wiggo' group has caught Martin (GRS) and Kessiakoff (AST) early on the final climb. There are now just six ahead of the yellow jersey's group but Rogers' turn is over and now Porte takes over the pacesetting...

17:22 Roche dropped...
Roche (ALM) is one of the men in the top 10 overall who has recently been dropped by the peloton that's now led by Porte, Froome and Wiggins (SKY).

17:25 No former stage winners from Croatia...
The stage is led by a Frenchman, Croatian, Belarussian, and a Dane. To date there has never been a Tour de France stage winner from Croatia... could Kiserlovski be the first? We'll find out in less than 15km. His group of four is currently 3'12" ahead of the peloton.

17:31 Four RadioShack riders in yellow jersey group
The 16 in the yellow jersey groups includes four from one team. They are 2'45" behind the four stage leaders.
The elite group is: Wiggins, Porte, Froome, Evans, van Garderen, Schleck, Horner, Zubeldia, Kloden, Nibali, Roche, Coppel, Pinot, van den Broeck, Cobo and Brajkovic.

17:34 12km to go: Brajkovic attacks
Janez Brajkovic has attacked the yellow jersey group and there's been no reaction to his move that came with about 14km to climb.
Pinot has now also seized the chance to try his legs.
Van den Broeck also wants in on the action... but Sky couldn't care less. The trio from Wiggins team and just tapping away and making sure they mark the true rivals for GC.

17:37 Nibali attacks!
Nibali has launched an impressive attack and that has taken Porte out of the yellow jersey's group. Wiggins is now left only with Froome for support. The Sky riders are pacing themselves and not reaction to what was a violent and efficient surge from the Liquigas leader.

17:43 Wiggins now chasing Nibali
With about 9km to go, Wiggins has decided it's time to dance after Nibali who has just caught Pinot and Brajkovic. Froome is limiting his losses and holding on the back of the group led by the yellow jersey.

17:45 Froome back at the front
After the surge by Wiggins, Froome is back at the front of the yellow jersey group which is now in pursuit of four: Nibali, Brajkovic, Pinot and van den Broeck.
There is 20" between the Wiggins group and the Nibali group.

17:48 Evans in trouble...
Evans is unable to maintain the pace being set by Froome. Van Garderen is waiting for his team leader but Wiggins, Froome and Schleck are putting time into the Australian.

17:51 Schleck dropped
Wiggins and Froome are on their own and about to catch the Nibali group. They have dropped Schleck with about 5.5km to go.

17:53 Wiggins cracks...
Froome attacked momentarily but it was an effort that has cost Wiggins his place in the elite group...

17:54 Pinot goes ahead: Wiggins returns...
Pinot has attacked the yellow jersey group after Wiggins' mini-crisis. The race leader is now riding along with VDB, Nibali and Froome.

17:55 Evans loses 38" to Wiggins...
Wiggins might have had a moment of crisis but his group is now 38" ahead of Evans.

and so on......

It looks like Boasson Hagen led for the first 80km, about half way up the Col du Glandon(15:22).

Then Knees leads until 15:53 when Evans attacks and Rogers takes over with 12 km to the top. Evans is caught 5 km from the top at 16:07. They reach the top at 16:24.

Mostly down hill and a cat 2 then more downhill. At 17:20 early on the final climb Porte takes over.

So how much of the final climb did Rogers work on? 1km, 2km, 3km? Not much. Don't see anything special by Rogers on stage 11.

After 50km of leading the peloton on his own!

So when did this happen?

 

[thehog]

A little sensitive Hitch. i was just updating the tweeter feed so there was a complete view of what was being discussed. The balance wasn't pro v anti sky. i am pro clean cycling. if sky are found to have doped they should get everything coming to them. But if they are then it is going to be evidence that gets them not speculation. Ultimately It was the eye witnesses that got Armstrong not guessing or opinion. He jsut managed to sue and bully those eye witnesses so it has taken a while. But sky will fall or stand on actual evidence not on 'oh look a plaster' must be doping. 'oh look Tenerife' must doping. ''oh look winning' must be doping. 'oh look a bike' must be doping.

“oh look Sean Yates” – doping.

“oh look Froome riding up HC Mountains with one hand” – doping.

“Oh look Rogers punching 450w for 50km” – doping.

“oh look no other team able to attack” – doping.

Oh and that doctor.

 

[ToreBear]

Ps. I Have a theory that Evans cracked because he underestimated the lactate level his attack would bring at altitude. XC skiers talk about getting surprised when they are at altitude. They feel fine, and suddenly crack. I think it's something about not sensing the build up of lactate the same way they do at lower altitude. They need altitude training to be able to learn when to slow down.

An example of cracking at altitude by a young talented swede with not enough experience of the effect of altitude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hqnrtzTQxQ
She is in white, number 38. And she did finnish the race.

 

[gustienordic]

Ps. I Have a theory that Evans cracked because he underestimated the lactate level his attack would bring at altitude. XC skiers talk about getting surprised when they are at altitude. They feel fine, and suddenly crack. I think it's something about not sensing the build up of lactate the same way they do at lower altitude. They need altitude training to be able to learn when to slow down.

An example of cracking at altitude by a young talented swede with not enough experience of the effect of altitude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hqnrtzTQxQ
She is in white, number 38. And she did finnish the race.

There is something to be said about this. I'm a college skier and have certainly experienced the effects of altitude traveling to JOs as a junior or racing in Utah/out west.

 

[roundabout]

Ps. I Have a theory that Evans cracked because he underestimated the lactate level his attack would bring at altitude. XC skiers talk about getting surprised when they are at altitude. They feel fine, and suddenly crack. I think it's something about not sensing the build up of lactate the same way they do at lower altitude. They need altitude training to be able to learn when to slow down.

An example of cracking at altitude by a young talented swede with not enough experience of the effect of altitude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hqnrtzTQxQ
She is in white, number 38. And she did finnish the race.

What's your point? That Evans doesn't have enough experience at altitude?

I think it was an optimistic attack. The way he was dangling behind van Garderen on the Glandon showed that he wasn't on a good day.

In hindsight it was a mistake to attack, but it didn't fail because of altitude.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Ps. I Have a theory that Evans cracked because he underestimated the lactate level his attack would bring at altitude. XC skiers talk about getting surprised when they are at altitude. They feel fine, and suddenly crack. I think it's something about not sensing the build up of lactate the same way they do at lower altitude. They need altitude training to be able to learn when to slow down.

Given Evans' vast experience of racing at altitude, isn't a more likely explanation that he was simply not fully fit? This would include a lack of sufficient exposure to riding at altitude in the run up to the Tour itself, which would, obviously affect his ability to sustain an attack at altitude.

I don't think he'd be surprised by the impact of racing at altitude, as he's experienced it for the thick end of a decade. In particular, his finest moment in last year's Tour came on the final ascent to the Galibier, which rises from 2000m to 2600m (approx) which is far higher than anything experienced in this year's Tour. (I think the highest altitude reached was the Tourmalet at 2100m.)

 

[ToreBear]

What's your point? That Evans doesn't have enough experience at altitude?

I think it was an optimistic attack. The way he was dangling behind van Garderen on the Glandon showed that he wasn't on a good day.

In hindsight it was a mistake to attack, but it didn't fail because of altitude.

Given Evans' vast experience of racing at altitude, isn't a more likely explanation that he was simply not fully fit? This would include a lack of sufficient exposure to riding at altitude in the run up to the Tour itself, which would, obviously affect his ability to sustain an attack at altitude.

I don't think he'd be surprised by the impact of racing at altitude, as he's experienced it for the thick end of a decade. In particular, his finest moment in last year's Tour came on the final ascent to the Galibier, which rises from 2000m to 2600m (approx) which is far higher than anything experienced in this year's Tour. (I think the highest altitude reached was the Tourmalet at 2100m.)

My point is that when he started his attack he felt good. My thinking is that he forgot that when you sense your lactate levels having gone too far, it's too late at altitude compared to the sensation at lower altitudes. Then he keept pushing himself, and the thing with Van Garderen happened, and he had to extend himself even more. This left his lactate levels too high by the final climb and he couldn't keep up with the yellow up the final climb.

Of course had Evans been in last years form, it might have worked. Then again he is not the kind of start stop climber like Contador is AFAIK? But this time he had to try it.

So my theory is more of an added explanation to both your points.

He simply misjudged his own form, in part due to the lack of lactate sensation.

 

[the omertà hurts]

Maybe he isnt on drugs No idea myself whether he is or not but i dont think it should be assumed that he is on drugs or, if he is, why he should use the same preparation methods as everyone else. I dont think Aldag etc used the same preparation methods as Armstrong.

Besides what is there on Zabel apart from his confession to using EPO in 1997 for a few weeks. As in hard evidence, not just a case of him being in T-mobile so he must have doped. I know that its hard to believe that anyone doing well in the late 90s/early 00s was clean.

sure, but with such obvious close links to dopers from the start of his pro career, just thought it peculiar he's never discussed (as far as i've seen). especially when his performances and (relative) recent improvement in climbing are circumstantial sticks used to beat other sky riders.... but then perhaps it's because sprinters don't allow the opportunity to get stuck into complicated kg/watts dissertations and the like, for those that enjoy those things

 

[The Hitch]

A little sensitive Hitch. i was just updating the tweeter feed so there was a complete view of what was being discussed. The balance wasn't pro v anti sky. i am pro clean cycling. if sky are found to have doped they should get everything coming to them. But if they are then it is going to be evidence that gets them not speculation. Ultimately It was the eye witnesses that got Armstrong not guessing or opinion. He jsut managed to sue and bully those eye witnesses so it has taken a while. But sky will fall or stand on actual evidence not on 'oh look a plaster' must be doping. 'oh look Tenerife' must doping. ''oh look winning' must be doping. 'oh look a bike' must be doping.

You moaned that the clinic is not interested in balance because posters speculate sky is doping.

 

[ebandit]

yeeks

“oh look Sean Yates” – doped as a rider.

“oh look Froome riding up HC Mountains with one hand” – even 10 yr olds can ride 'non-handed'.

“Oh look Rogers punching 450w for 50km” – possible doping ( if stats are true )

“oh look no other team able to attack” – evans /nibali attacked .

Oh and that doctor- not a good choice but he's gone

 

[argyllflyer]

This might be geo-restricted but Richard Moore and Brian Smith chat to Sky Sports News about the last 7 days, both loudly condemning Sky's anti-doping charter because they argue almost no one who cycled over 10 years ago can sign.

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/22854/8175495/The-doping-debate

 

[bobbins]

This might be geo-restricted but Richard Moore and Brian Smith chat to Sky Sports News about the last 7 days, both loudly condemning Sky's anti-doping charter because they argue almost no one who cycled over 10 years ago can sign.

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/22854/8175495/The-doping-debate

What a strange pairing they are and what strange things for them to be saying. They must both have amnesia again.