Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ultimobici]

So a rider that has had a focus on the track for several years rides the Tour once in the middle of an Olympic run and comes up wanting is evidence of doping? FFS!

2003/4 was the run up to the Athens Olympics where he picked up a full set of medals. 2007/8 was Beijing where he won 2 golds. In between he picked up gold in the worlds just for good measure. It wasn't until 2009 that he stopped focusing on the track and dedicated himself to the road.

Look at the results he had on the track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Wiggins#Palmar.C3.A8s

 

[Freddythefrog]

Cycling: Team Sky boss Dave Brailsford shocked by revelation

http://www.i4u.com/2012/10/bradley-...ng-dave-brailsford-boss-revelations-armstrong

Can we please have another comedy press release like this one ?

All I can say is we did due diligence on Sean, as we do on every employee. We are very careful about who we employe. We researched his background very carefully, investigating it every bit as thoroughly as we did Michael Barry's.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So a rider that has had a focus on the track for several years rides the Tour once in the middle of an Olympic run and comes up wanting is evidence of doping? FFS!

2003/4 was the run up to the Athens Olympics where he picked up a full set of medals. 2007/8 was Beijing where he won 2 golds. In between he picked up gold in the worlds just for good measure. It wasn't until 2009 that he stopped focusing on the track and dedicated himself to the road.

Look at the results he had on the track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Wiggins#Palmar.C3.A8s

NO. It's evidence that compared to the other people in the peloton, he is top 20 at best. Exactly what we see in 2010, when he was riding for Brailsford, their first year of riding clean.

Then Brad said, "I'm not playing by the book any more", "I'm doing it my way".

Then they hired Leinders.

Then look at Brad go (although my theory is Leinders didn't touch Brad, who had his own preparer from 2009).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So a rider that has had a focus on the track for several years rides the Tour once in the middle of an Olympic run and comes up wanting is evidence of doping? FFS!

2003/4 was the run up to the Athens Olympics where he picked up a full set of medals. 2007/8 was Beijing where he won 2 golds. In between he picked up gold in the worlds just for good measure. It wasn't until 2009 that he stopped focusing on the track and dedicated himself to the road.

Look at the results he had on the track.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Wiggins#Palmar.C3.A8s

Wrong. Wronger than a nun whizzing in the woods.

 

[ultimobici]

No no no no no no wrong.

2006 Dauphine prolog. Read up. Dedicated to the road. 21st. Not a GC rider. Not even a TTer.

That finishin list reads like a who's who of the USADA witness list.

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h)
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.01.88
3 Stuart O'grady (Aus) Team CSC 0.06.07
4 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06.91
5 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 0.07.35
6 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.07.61
8 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.70
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.08.00
10 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Würth 0.08.19
11 Peter Mazur (Pol) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.08.50
12 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 0.08.96
13 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.01
14 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 0.09.32
15 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Würth 0.09.62
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.67
17 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.10.26
18 Manuel Quinziato (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.37
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.46
20 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.10.99
21 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 0.11.02
22 Ronny Scholz (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.11.06
23 Thomas Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.23
24 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux 0.11.30
25 Erik Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.34
26 Didier Rous (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 0.11.35
27 Michael Barry (Can) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.11.39
28 Iker Camano (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.12.10
29 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.12.19
30 Remmert Wielinga (Ned) Quick Step-Innergetic 0.12.30

More like 8th barely 5 seconds down.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That finishin list reads like a who's who of the USADA witness list.

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h) 0.12.30

More like 8th barely 5 seconds down.

Exactly, missing 10% power. I've already posted about this extensively. Fast forward 6 years and he is now the who's who of dopers.

 

[Don Quixote]

Have you compared that to TdF winners and podium place getters before OxygenVector doping changed riders from Grupetto fodder to the podium?

When you do that, you will see the GT donkey Wiggins is.

2005 giro 123rd
2006 TdF 124th
2008 giro 138th

2009 giro 71st

2009 TdF 3rd.
2010 Giro 40th
2010 TdF 24th
2011 Vuelta 3rd
2012 TdF 1st.

Talk about inconsistency. Up and down like a brassers drawers! Doping consistency!

Edit! When did Leinders get hired. 2011? look at the marginal gains he injected

Is not there only one anomoly ie 2009 with Garmin? Everything else shows a consistent improvement to me

Well, sort of.

 

[ultimobici]

Wrong. Wronger than a nun whizzing in the woods.

In what way is it "wronger"? He may have paid more attention to the road from 2005 to 2006 but it was just to fill time until Beijing. 2004 into 2005 was also coming out of the mother of all hangovers.

All that has been offered up so far is conjecture and assumption. No evidence of wrongdoing at all.

So where is the proof?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is not there only one anomoly ie 2009 with Garmin? Everything else shows a consistent improvement to me

Well, sort of.

At Garmin in 2009 he was coached by Sky.

So why the slump in 2010? And then rocket ship in 2011? Then hulk smash in 2012? His performance in 2012 is an order of magnitude greater than 2009, which is 2 orders of magnitude over anything he ever did prior.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

In what way is it "wronger"? He may have paid more attention to the road from 2005 to 2006 but it was just to fill time until Beijing. 2004 into 2005 was also coming out of the mother of all hangovers.

All that has been offered up so far is conjecture and assumption. No evidence of wrongdoing at all.

So where is the proof?

When you stop spouting Wiggins-written PR about hangovers lasting 2 years, I will feel burdened to bring proof.

Open your eyes, and read what the man himself wrote in 2006 about his training for the Dauphine. He is not someone who does things by half, and his results were not as expected.

Hint: elite Aussie track cyclists do 35,000km training p.a.

Suttons are Aussies.

 

[Velo_vicar]

It is not hard to sift through the sport and see where the doping occurs if you are not new to the sport.

Let fanboyism get in the way and you might aswell forget about doping because you wont want to believe your hero dopes. Hence so many Brit fanboys doing their best to deny Wiggins amazing transformation from the grupetto to the podium at 32.

Brilliant the old fanboy dismisal/ i have been here longer arguement. i started following procycling 21 years ago aged 15 with the '89 tour being enough to get me hooked. Is that credible enough or did i need to see Merchx. i am a fan of cycling i want it to be clean. i want Sky to be clean but want them caught if doping. But at some stage if you want to follow this great sport into the future you will have to trust someone sometime. You will have to beleive that a winner is clean. i think Sky are guilty of an almighty **** up PR wise but until the eye witnesses or confessions come there is not anything but speculation. there seems to be a theory here that riders are robots and things like motivation can't effect performance.

 

[ultimobici]

When you stop spouting Wiggins-written PR about hangovers lasting 2 years, I will feel burdened to bring proof.

Open your eyes, and read what the man himself wrote in 2006 about his training for the Dauphine. He is not someone who does things by half, and his results were not as expected.

Hint: elite Aussie track cyclists do 35,000km training p.a.

Suttons are Aussies.

How's about a link to said account of the 2006 prep for the Dauphiné?

 

[Don Quixote]

At Garmin in 2009 he was coached by Sky.

So why the slump in 2010? And then rocket ship in 2011? Then hulk smash in 2012? His performance in 2012 is an order of magnitude greater than 2009, which is 2 orders of magnitude over anything he ever did prior.

I hear you, but the only real anomoly wrt his GT placings, if you're looking at them across his career - happened in 2009 at Garmin.

Maybe I just see it differently.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.i4u.com/2012/10/bradley-...ng-dave-brailsford-boss-revelations-armstrong

Can we please have another comedy press release like this one ?

The BBC and Guardian swallow this tuff wholemeal!

All I can say is we did due diligence on Sean, as we do on every employee. We are very careful about who we employe. We researched his background very carefully, investigating it every bit as thoroughly as we did Michael Barry's. We could find no trace of any involvement with any known drug abuser in the sport. We subjected him to a rigorous interview asking searching questions such as what his favourite colour is, and does he like Marmite. There was absolutely nothing in his past that would indicate he could be implicated in doping practices. Why, even the other week, when subjected to the most fearsome grilling by the tigers in cycling journalism, Sean stated that although he had spent many years with Lance and roomed with him on many occasions, he had only ever seen Lance sucking on the odd orange or sipping mineral water. This statement had every single cycling journalist shocked that Lance could be so cunning and hide his activities so well. After hearing the truth from Sean, none of them could think of a single question to ask him.

Pity he didn't ask the clinic. But he is lying!

Why are Sky paying these people off it they lied to Brailsford?

Team Principal Brailsford stated - This comes as a complete shock. It is jaw dropping that our team DS could possibly be involved. It is sad that between the 18th and 21st July 1995, a very long time before he joined Team Sky, Yates did take the banned substance contained in Vicks chesty cough mixture. We are sad to release him but we need to maintain our standards.

Wonder does Brailsford know that Santa is a myth yet?

 

[ultimobici]

Depends if he does something stupid like what Armstrong did to Landis, but it seems people are getting lots of moeny to buy their silence. But we are not geting told how much. The team of transparency fails again!

Generally speaking one has to compensate an employee when terminating them for something not expressly stipulated in their contact. Sure as *** you'd expect compensation if your employer demanded your resignation over a retrospective change to your employment conditions, wouldn't you?

 

[Benotti69]

Brilliant the old fanboy dismisal/ i have been here longer arguement. i started following procycling 21 years ago aged 15 with the '89 tour being enough to get me hooked. Is that credible enough or did i need to see Merchx.

No but if you want to start discussing dopig you at least need to go back further than sky and EPO to have an understanding of the differences doping ha brought to GTs

i am a fan of cycling i want it to be clean.

I find the clinic to have the most honest sports fans anywhere and to be the most dedicated because even though they know the dirt they still follow the sport! We are here becuase we want a clean sport not pr BS about it being clean.

i want Sky to be clean but want them caught if doping.

We all want clean teams. But PR F**k ups are not made by clean teams. And PR spinning is not required by clean teams either.

But at some stage if you want to follow this great sport into the future you will have to trust someone sometime. You will have to beleive that a winner is clean. i think Sky are guilty of an almighty **** up PR wise but until the eye witnesses or confessions come there is not anything but speculation. there seems to be a theory here that riders are robots and things like motivation can't effect performance.

Why are they guilty of "of an almighty **** up PR wise" ?

Because they are hiding something. PR is only for those who seek to hide or twist the truth!

I will keep following the sport as I live the sport but not those in it right now!

 

[Benotti69]

Generally speaking one has to compensate an employee when terminating them for something not expressly stipulated in their contact. Sure as *** you'd expect compensation if your employer demanded your resignation over a retrospective change to your employment conditions, wouldn't you?

Well Braislford expressley said they were duley diligant to ask Yates & Co about their past and doping. So if you lie to the company, you are not entitled to compo!

Or Brailsford is lying, again!

 

[Benotti69]

That finishin list reads like a who's who of the USADA witness list.

1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 4.35.84 (53.509 km/h)
2 George Hincapie (USA) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.01.88
3 Stuart O'grady (Aus) Team CSC 0.06.07
4 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.06.91
5 Joost Posthuma (Ned) Rabobank 0.07.35
6 Stijn Devolder (Bel) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.07.61
8 Vladimir Gusev (Rus) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.07.70
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.08.00
10 Andrey Kashechkin (Kaz) Würth 0.08.19
11 Peter Mazur (Pol) Saunier Duval-Prodir 0.08.50
12 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R Prevoyance 0.08.96
13 Bert Grabsch (Ger) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.01
14 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Credit Agricole 0.09.32
15 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Würth 0.09.62
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.09.67
17 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.10.26
18 Manuel Quinziato (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.37
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.10.46
20 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.10.99
21 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Cofidis, le Credit par Telephone 0.11.02
22 Ronny Scholz (Ger) Gerolsteiner 0.11.06
23 Thomas Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.23
24 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Française des Jeux 0.11.30
25 Erik Dekker (Ned) Rabobank 0.11.34
26 Didier Rous (Fra) Bouygues Telecom 0.11.35
27 Michael Barry (Can) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.11.39
28 Iker Camano (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.12.10
29 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 0.12.19
30 Remmert Wielinga (Ned) Quick Step-Innergetic 0.12.30

More like 8th barely 5 seconds down.

Right in amongst the dopers.

 

[ultimobici]

Well Braislford expressley said they were duley diligant to ask Yates & Co about their past and doping. So if you lie to the company, you are not entitled to compo!

Or Brailsford is lying, again!

More likely is that Brailsford was aware of Yates's infraction in 1989 as well as his association with Discovery & Astana. The problem is that DB & Sky set themselves up for this by stating their intention to not employ staff with any history. No matter what happened at Discovery & Astana, Yates was going to be a liability DB cannot afford to have.

 

[cineteq]

Wonder does Brailsford know that Santa is a myth yet?

What about father chritsmas?

Btw, great article by INRNG
http://www.chasingwheels.com/doping/team-sky-zero-tolerance-policy-or-how-not-to-address-reality

 

[ultimobici]

Right in amongst the dopers.

No matter what is said in his defence, he's guilty in your eyes. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it. You probably have no knowledge of Wiggins other than what you glean off the internet. If it said he was a kiddie fiddler, you'd consider that more evidence of doping!

 

[ebandit]

wrong!

Wrong. Wronger than a nun whizzing in the woods.

ha ha...........the sky thread is the new 'official armstrong' thread ....where i come to cheer myself up with indignant 'experts' spurting tosh

where there is a lack of evidence.............be creative.........create your own

if sky are doping the truth will be revealed but not by 'clinicians'

of course nuns don't whizz............or ever venture into the woods

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Where have I ever said anything in support of Brailsford? I don't see the relevance.

You accused Benotti (admittedly not without reason) of lying deliberately in order to make their argument look better.

Which is what Brailsford has been doing a lot of in this last couple of weeks, unless he is the most naïve and trusting individual in the history of the sport.

I prefer to credit Brailsford with some intelligence, thus I think he has been lying deliberately about Yates, Leinders, Barry et al to make his argument (that Sky is clean, that the sport is clean) look better.

 

[martinvickers]

Brilliant the old fanboy dismisal/ i have been here longer arguement. i started following procycling 21 years ago aged 15 with the '89 tour being enough to get me hooked. Is that credible enough or did i need to see Merchx. i am a fan of cycling i want it to be clean. i want Sky to be clean but want them caught if doping. But at some stage if you want to follow this great sport into the future you will have to trust someone sometime. You will have to beleive that a winner is clean. i think Sky are guilty of an almighty **** up PR wise but until the eye witnesses or confessions come there is not anything but speculation. there seems to be a theory here that riders are robots and things like motivation can't effect performance.

VV, at some stage you have to work out that for many at the Clinic, the point isn't the sport, it's the conspiracy. For some it's not enough that powerful individuals are selfish, it has to be the illuminati.

Cycling was rotten. That is indisputable. Has been for decades and decades - since before WWII. Possibly WWI.

But it's not just that some don't believe in an improvement (even just a possible improvement) in cycling. Some really don't want to. Indeed, some even resent the possibility. And the clinic is a comfortable place for them.

You find it everywhere in life. The small group who believe in everything, who defend the obviously indefensible - Contador's clenbuterol, or Yates "i saw nothing" - though, by definition, they tend not to come near the clinic.

And you have the conspiricists - who believe nothing; who act as if cynicism is the same as wisdom; who, frankly, seem to hate the sport, but enjoy attacking it The clinic has it's share of those, all right.

And the bulk in the middle, who hope, and sometimes are disappointed; who question, but try not to be cynical. Who love the sport, and hate the dopers.

Most people call these people normal.

In the clinic, we're fanboys.

 

[Benotti69]

No matter what is said in his defence, he's guilty in your eyes. Your mind is made up and nothing will change it. You probably have no knowledge of Wiggins other than what you glean off the internet. If it said he was a kiddie fiddler, you'd consider that more evidence of doping!

I would not dream of comparing a doping sports person to a paedophile. There is a world of difference and I hav never brought it into any equation. To do so is scraping the bottom of the barrell in the debate!

This is like Braislford's defence for hiring Leinders using the death of a staff member to justify hiring a dodgy doctor!

Wiggins was very vocal in condemning doping in 2006. Was he wrong? No.

Why is he not condemning doping now? Why not Contador, F Schleck, those who were involved in Op Puerto, OPQS for hiring Ibarguren, BMC for not suspending or sacking riders involved in Padova investigation? What changed Wiggin's attitude to condemning the dopers and doping doctors?

I guess becuase he joined the club! He joined when he was doing his own thing at Garmin with Ellingworth and now at Sky!

Why would Wiggins says he loves Armstrong when it was obvious to most, who had an open mind, back in 1999 that he was doping?

Why would Wiggins insult fans who felt exactly like he did in 2006!

Why is Wiggins saying the Armstrong was 15 years ago?

Why is not happy that all the people got busted? He has not expressed any sort of contentment about people getting caught by USADA and all the guys now getting found out?

Why was he silent when Leinder's was hired when in 2006 he said he despised doping doctors and teams that work with them?

What is he hiding?