Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

See this is what is wrong with posters ignoring the past lies of the sport and burying their heads in the sand and not questioning teams when they say they are clean but have a big dodgy line up that they said they would not resort to hiring and when called out hiring a doping docotr on it use the death of a staff member to justify hiring a guy who was not even at the GTs for which he was apparently hired!

Liggert theorem. "They have no proof". Being in the company of Phil is a great honor for many here.

Meanwhile in far far away in a lab at Sky HQ:

Froome dawg! Coming to a GT near you!

 

[Mellow Velo]

Not delusions of grandeur at all.

Vaughter's feels he has to post in here as good PR for his teams clean image. He has stated if the teams paid $750K for anti doping he wouldn't have "to do this crap".

Armstrong has been getting banned from here for years.

Why would Sky care what most of their fans like you think? They know you swallowed their gip about being clean.

It is the Boneidle W**kers and C**ts that has them making these calls!

I haven't swallowed anything.
I don't comment on the Sky doping issue, I stay out of that debate through necessity.

I do comment upon the plainly ludicrous, of which the idea that a handful of posters, on one of many forum, could wield huge influence over Sky's infrastructure.

 

[Benotti69]

I haven't swallowed anything.
I don't comment on the Sky doping issue, I stay out of that debate through necessity.

I do comment upon the plainly ludicrous, of which the idea that a handful of posters, on one of many forum, could wield huge influence over Sky's infrastructure.

Another case in point, or just a joke????

So why did Sky get rid of ex dopers and Leinders then if it wasn't bowing to pressure?

If they were clean they would have stood with heads held high and provided guys like Walsh and Kimmage any access to documents and interviews they wanted.

Nah, no journalists, just get rid of the dirty baggage.

If people want to believe in Sky great goodluck with that but dont expect to try and portray them as the 2012 Team of Redemption. They are not!

 

[thehog]

Liggert theorem. "They have no proof". Being in the company of Phil is a great honor for many here.

Meanwhile in far far away in a lab at Sky HQ:

Froome dawg! Coming to a GT near you!

Based on this graph I knew Froome had GT superstardom potential in 2010. It's clear to see.

 

[No_Balls]

Reading Chris Froomes bio is a bit surrealistic. Everything (and everyone) concering his past pre-Vuelta 2011 returns to the same phrase: "He showed a lot of promise." History revisionism in the making?

In July 2008, Froome found himself lining up for the Tour de France despite having lost his mother to illness only weeks earlier. He completed the Tour, showing a lot of promise in the mountains and time trials, and even went on to podium in Italy at the Giro d’Appennino shortly afterwards.

Joining Team Sky in 2010, Froome was described by the team's management as "a rough diamond, in need of shaping and polishing".

http://www.chris-froome.com/bio

Of course we dont have so many referencepoints in Grand Tours leading up to his stormy ride in 2011 and 2012, but i wonder what in his Tour de France 2008 showing promise. He was riding with the sprinters during the first real mountain stage (Hautacam) at that years edition and repeated the procedure a couple stages later when riding in with O´Grady and Robbie McEwen to Prato Nevoso. Even the next day to Jausiers the photographers needed to wait a long time before Froome arrived with the bus, 13th from the last spot. After a unexpected jump of performance at L´Alpe d´Huez everything was back in order when Froome arrived with the water carriers in Saint Etienne the day after, helping him secure 84th spot, 2 and half hours behind Sastre.

Even the most rock hard optimistic must have wondered what it would take and the 2010 rampant perfomance securing 9th place in Tour du Haut Var didnt hint what would come. But then he met Bobby Julich...

Being coached and mentored by Bobby Julich (an ex Tour de France contender himself), Froome had his first major breakthrough during the 2011 Vuelta a España where he finished second overall. This equalled Robert Millar's second place in the 1987 Giro d'Italia as the highest placed British rider in a Grand Tour.

 

[Avoriaz]

So why did Sky get rid of ex dopers and Leinders then if it wasn't bowing to pressure?

If they were clean they would have stood with heads held high and provided guys like Walsh and Kimmage any access to documents and interviews they wanted.

Nah, no journalists, just get rid of the dirty baggage.

If people want to believe in Sky great goodluck with that but dont expect to try and portray them as the 2012 Team of Redemption. They are not!

Possibly. But if Walsh were embedded in the Sky team, for example, and found nothing this would be meaningless to you. Your response would simply be that he is already indirectly on the Sky payroll because he works for the Sunday Times.

I don't think anyone is portraying them as the 2012 Team of Redemption, however much you would like that to be the case.

And yes, I want to believe in Sky as I want to believe in all teams. Doesn't mean I do. The difference between us is that you, apparently, steadfastly do not want to believe in teams and will use anything you can to denigrate them.

Too many posters are using the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy to "prove" that Sky (or certain riders, and indeed, other teams and riders) are doing the dirty

 

[thehog]

Reading Chris Froomes bio is a bit surrealistic. Everything (and everyone) concering his past pre-Vuelta 2011 returns to the same phrase: "He showed a lot of promise." History revisionism in the making?

http://www.chris-froome.com/bio

Of course we dont have so many referencepoints in Grand Tours leading up to his stormy ride in 2011 and 2012, but i wonder what in his Tour de France 2008 showing promise. He was riding with the sprinters during the first real mountain stage (Hautacam) at that years edition and repeated the procedure a couple stages later when riding in with O´Grady and Robbie McEwen to Prato Nevoso. Even the next day to Jausiers the photographers needed to wait a long time before Froome arrived with the bus, 13th from the last spot. After a unexpected jump of performance at L´Alpe d´Huez everything was back in order when Froome arrived with the water carriers in Saint Etienne the day after, helping him secure 84th spot, 2 and half hours behind Sastre.

Even the most rock hard optimistic must have wondered what it would take and the 2010 rampant perfomance securing 9th place in Tour du Haut Var didnt hint what would come. But then he met Bobby Julich...



http://www.chris-froome.com/bio

I like how the BIO jumps from a podium in the massive UCI 1.1 (1-day race) Giro d’Appennino beaten by the known climbers and TT'er's Alessandro Bertolini, Eddy Ratti(!!!) to been "detected' as the "rough diamond" GT superstar!

Go figure that one out!

 

[ebandit]

?

See this is what is wrong with posters ignoring the past lies of the sport and burying their heads in the sand and not questioning teams when they say they are clean but have a big dodgy line up that they said they would not resort to hiring and when called out hiring a doping docotr on it use the death of a staff member to justify hiring a guy who was not even at the GTs for which he was apparently hired!

of course we need to be sceptical ....i have my doubts...but this is no

proof................poor pr for sure but until there is evidence team sky

must be considered clean

 

[ebandit]

reet proud of my chart

Based on this graph I knew Froome had GT superstardom potential in 2010. It's clear to see.

ms hog your full of bluster but what 'exactly' does this show?

i keep asking but to me it shows sweet feck all

and ms hog i have been interested in your previous statements linking

team sky with ferarri.............'i smell ferarri etc' what exactly do you mean

...the smell of burning rubber driven by 12 cyclinders ot vroooom or bull?

 

[thehog]

of course we need to be sceptical ....i have my doubts...but this is no

proof................poor pr for sure but until there is evidence team sky

must be considered clean

Just so we all know - what do you define as "evidence"? A positive test?

 

[Mellow Velo]

So why did Sky get rid of ex dopers and Leinders then if it wasn't bowing to pressure?

Pressure no doubt.
Not from here though.
Mainstream press.
You can argue as to where they got the seed, but ultimately
they influence mainstream public perception.

Ironically, Googling Geert and no sign of the Clinic, until the bottom of page 3, rather Cyclingweekly forum, PCM.daily and our own, little Velorooms.

 

[ebandit]

?

Just so we all know - what do you define as "evidence"? A positive test?

analytical or non analytical positive.........1st hand testimony of doping practices etc

not continued suggestion

something of true substance

 

[LaFlorecita]

Not much difference the first few years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador#Grand_Tours_overall_classification_results_timeline

Froomedog goes from 36th in giro to 2nd in vuelta 2 years later. Alberto 30th in tour to 1st in tour 2 years later

 

[Froome19]

Of course we dont have so many referencepoints in Grand Tours leading up to his stormy ride in 2011 and 2012, but i wonder what in his Tour de France 2008 showing promise. He was riding with the sprinters during the first real mountain stage (Hautacam) at that years edition and repeated the procedure a couple stages later when riding in with O´Grady and Robbie McEwen to Prato Nevoso. Even the next day to Jausiers the photographers needed to wait a long time before Froome arrived with the bus, 13th from the last spot. After a unexpected jump of performance at L´Alpe d´Huez everything was back in order when Froome arrived with the water carriers in Saint Etienne the day after, helping him secure 84th spot, 2 and half hours behind Sastre.

14th in the final TT in your first GT..
I would say that is certainly a very impressive perfomance..

And remember it was not only the Sky management who say Froome has amazing potential, Corti and Theze of the WCC also both said he could go onto much higher aspirations..

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Liggert theorem. "They have no proof". Being in the company of Phil is a great honor for many here.

Meanwhile in far far away in a lab at Sky HQ:

Froome dawg! Coming to a GT near you!

By a happy coincidence, who also came 36th in a GT, their best performance to that point, withdrew from the same GT the following year, before finishing 4th in the Vuelta two years later?

 

[thehog]

By a happy coincidence, who also came 36th in a GT, their best performance to that point, before finishing 4th in the Vuelta three years later?

Nice decoding work detective!

 

[veganrob]

By a happy coincidence, who also came 36th in a GT, their best performance to that point, withdrew from the same GT the following year, before finishing 4th in the Vuelta two years later?

That would be too simple for many to understand.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Nice decoding work detective!

One could also throw in an illness in the intervening period. Not to mention, joining a team that rides in blue, black and white kit. The parallels are all too obvious to me!

 

[thehog]

14th in the final TT in your first GT..
I would say that is certainly a very impressive perfomance..

And remember it was not only the Sky management who say Froome has amazing potential, Corti and Theze of the WCC also both said he could go onto much higher aspirations..

Amazing potential that he was about to be cut from the squadra? Where are all these quotes from the time in regards to his potential. He finished over an hour off GC in 2009 Giro.

It appears these quotes in regards to Froome only appeared when he became an "alien".

Find me one quote from the time that said he had "amazing potential".

 

[Benotti69]

Pressure no doubt.
Not from here though.
Mainstream press.
You can argue as to where they got the seed, but ultimately
they influence mainstream public perception.

Ironically, Googling Geert and no sign of the Clinic, until the bottom of page 3, rather Cyclingweekly forum, PCM.daily and our own, little Velorooms.

I would love to see a link where it shows main stream press asking hard questions of Brailsford about Yates, Barry or Julich.

But Leinders was 1st mentioned on 06-11-12 in the clinic (cant find earlier on google) which led to interviews from cycle mags like cyclesport on the rest day of the TdF and we got the excuse about death of soigneur and need for a specialist doc!!!

 

[martinvickers]

Just so we all know - what do you define as "evidence"? A positive test?

Well, hog, it strikes me that, pharmacy tests aside, there was strong and persuasive evidence from the likes of Betsy and Emma, pretty early on in the USPS debacle. It was ignored, and they were wrongly vilified...but it was out there as early as 2001, no? Kimmage and Walsh were calling foul almost from the start - and that was before the obvious oddness of LA's attacking Simeoni and Bassons.

Is there any evidence of even this sort against either Sky or Garmin? accusations from people who might know? Odd treatment of 'clean' riders?

I've read Wiggins' new book. Parts of it - his very close relationship with Yates and Rodgers in particular - are worrying. His barely disguised dislike of the fans, and oddly Froome, is entertaining.

But, more seriously, is Yates really the equal of Ferrari - who EVERYONE knew LA was seeing?

I've said it till I'm blue in the face - if Sky, or some of its riders, or Garmin, etc are doping, i want them caught, i want them publically shamed, out of the sport (and frankly in jail).

So, given the latest round of 'departures', and accepting that dope tests can never be eveything in the fight, shouldn't we be looking for the Betsy, the Emma, The Simeoni, the Bassons, the Ferrari? I certainly am not going to accept their innocence on blood testing alone - but I'm not willing to accept their guilt on cycnicim alone either.

my 2c

 

[thehog]

Well, hog, it strikes me that, pharmacy tests aside, there was strong and persuasive evidence from the likes of Betsy and Emma, pretty early on in the USPS debacle. It was ignored, and they were wrongly vilified...but it was out there as early as 2001, no? Kimmage and Walsh were calling foul almost from the start - and that was before the obvious oddness of LA's attacking Simeoni and Bassons.

Is there any evidence of even this sort against either Sky or Garmin? accusations from people who might know? Odd treatment of 'clean' riders?

I've read Wiggins' new book. Parts of it - his very close relationship with Yates and Rodgers in particular - are worrying. His barely disguised dislike of the fans, and oddly Froome, is entertaining.

But, more seriously, is Yates really the equal of Ferrari - who EVERYONE knew LA was seeing?

I've said it till I'm blue in the face - if Sky, or some of its riders, or Garmin, etc are doping, i want them caught, i want them publically shamed, out of the sport (and frankly in jail).

So, given the latest round of 'departures', and accepting that dope tests can never be eveything in the fight, shouldn't we be looking for the Betsy, the Emma, The Simeoni, the Bassons, the Ferrari? I certainly am not going to accept their innocence on blood testing alone - but I'm not willing to accept their guilt on cycnicim alone either.

my 2c

I would agree that testing should be the definition of riding clean or not. But from the USADA report and countless cases we know testing doesn't mean a lot.

Dope testing at times does catch athletes doping but its still only those too stupid to dope properly.

20 years of cycling has shown us testing alone is not going to show much. WADA, the Federations and even the UCI have said they need law enforcement agencies to help them.

I know a lot of people want Sky to be clean. Just like many did with USPS and T-Mobile. USA, Germany and now UK. National teams competing at the Tour.

I wish people would trust their own eyes more. After seeing what we saw and if you've watched cycling for at least 10 years you know what was up.

I'm not here to burst anyone's bubble but I have to laugh and joke about Sky. They are too funny for words and watching it pan out just like USPS in 1999 is even funnier.


My sadness is still for Richie Porte. He needs to be saved and I wish they protect him. Super talent that guy. He's caught in a world now that he'll never get out of. If you want to see GT potential - then he is it. Not Froome.

 

[blackcat]

Yep, I see what you mean - I'm with you on not wanting extreme criminal sanctions against the riders (and the USPS guys haven't suffered such sanction for their doping have they?).

Apologies again if any offence caused

no offence caused. I am about truth, and would like to expose that to genuine fans. Not a partial fanboi. Dont want individuals harmed.

If people, Vaughters et al think I am full of BS. Lets hear it, lets have it out

 

[blackcat]

After yesterday's finger "Sir no longer". Not her majesty's cup of tea.

Now a picture of a nude Wiggins shagging a fan from behind, that would be tolerable.

Tinman, leave the jokes to me mate

 

[coinneach]

Well, hog, it strikes me that, pharmacy tests aside, there was strong and persuasive evidence from the likes of Betsy and Emma, pretty early on in the USPS debacle. It was ignored, and they were wrongly vilified...but it was out there as early as 2001, no? Kimmage and Walsh were calling foul almost from the start - and that was before the obvious oddness of LA's attacking Simeoni and Bassons.

Is there any evidence of even this sort against either Sky or Garmin? accusations from people who might know? Odd treatment of 'clean' riders?

I've read Wiggins' new book. Parts of it - his very close relationship with Yates and Rodgers in particular - are worrying. His barely disguised dislike of the fans, and oddly Froome, is entertaining.

But, more seriously, is Yates really the equal of Ferrari - who EVERYONE knew LA was seeing?

I've said it till I'm blue in the face - if Sky, or some of its riders, or Garmin, etc are doping, i want them caught, i want them publically shamed, out of the sport (and frankly in jail).

So, given the latest round of 'departures', and accepting that dope tests can never be eveything in the fight, shouldn't we be looking for the Betsy, the Emma, The Simeoni, the Bassons, the Ferrari? I certainly am not going to accept their innocence on blood testing alone - but I'm not willing to accept their guilt on cycnicim alone either.

my 2c

Nice to see a balanced post on this site.

The only trouble with it is the likelihood of any departure saying anything negative about Sky, either because there is nothing negative to say or they are getting a generous package to leave.

Rodgers is a problem for Sky: little doubt he doped before, he'll have to go. But that doesn't mean he's been doping this year

I've read all the guff on Froome above and none of it is persuasive (to me)
For all the "never seen him anywhere before" = he was in Africa, how many African cyclists have you seen?
"Came from nowhere, performance improved" = Well was seriously ill with virus
"How can he be this good" = How many top Long Distance sportsmen have lived and trained at altitude in Kenya? LOADS: Froome is just the first cyclist

For me the clincher is this years Vuelta: how many riders get to lead a crack team at a GT? If he doped in the past, would he stop before his first big chance? Do you think, if he doped, that his performance would have tailed off like it did?

I accept that people have different opinions on this, but unless there is some new EVIDENCE or DATA, I'd prefer it posting was more restrained.

Or is the aim 1000 pages, come what may?