Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Don't be late Pedro]

Because the altitude training was done to circumvent the de-saturation observed in the 2010 Tour where Wiggins came 24th. As if all of a sudden his 24th in 2010 was due to physiological limitations not present in 2009 and miraculously absent once again in 2011/12.

Or it could be that sometimes people just don't perform to their expected ability every time for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps mentally where for the first time the expectation was on him as leader weighed down on him.

Why until recently did the All Blacks always choke in world cups? Was it down to physiological limitations as well?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Or it could be that sometimes people just don't perform to their expected ability every time for a multitude of reasons.

I'd accept that if there was one underperformance from Wiggins till August 2012, but it was overperformance that I noticed.

 

[Tinman]

Froome actually worries me (a lot) more than Wiggins in some ways.

I'd be very interested to have a look at his bio-passport over the last 18 months especially considering his problems with Bilharzia.

Me too, ie. interested in Froome's blood data. Didn't know about his Bilharzia/Schistosomiasis. A disease where parasites feed on red blood cells... Life long infection, treated once or twice annually with antiparasitic medication.

One of the great feats of the human body is that if provided/attacked by something from the outside it has the ability to fight/compensate against this foreign influence.

It is possible that Froome will have developed, during his active infection period, an up-regulation of red blood cell producing mechanisms. And this may well explain his "Not Normal" performance in 2012. How long this effect were to persist is a critical question.

I am looking for a suitable analogy. Somewhat similar to how vaccines work. Stimulate the body to react/produce to external stimulus to counteract the relative body weakness/fight the foreign invader introduced by the vaccine.

So yes, blood values would be great to see for Froome. As would be some case literature on Bilharzia/Schistosomiasis and the effect on blood. He may just have been lucky. As lucky as say a Greg Lemond to be born with a sensational VO2Max, but this time as a result of a disease... And analogies to the 400m blade runner Pistorius, with "normal" legs perhaps an ordinary athlete (who knows), with blades making the olympic final...

 

[Tinman]

Anyone know when/why Froome moved to Monaco? Not your usual town to move to unless you are making serious money, or know you are going to be making serious money. Or your parents living there of course.

 

[armchairclimber]

Apologies no offence intended. I'm enjoying the debate.

What say we go backwards and connect the dots.

Tour de France 2012 - Sky literally rip the legs of every other team to the point they cannot attack (several quotes provided by riders on opposing teams).

Sky not only ripped off peoples legs but they did it with 6 guys (minus the sprinter, his helper and the dude they lost week 1 - ****sou).

Rogers during the Tour taunted the opposition by saying that no one could attack and if they did it didn't matter because he, Little Richie and the other henchmen were all punching 450w+ day in, day out and they'd eventually catch any foolhardy attacker in a short space of time.

Froome-dawg goes a little crazy, attacks, slows, soft pedals, gestures to the yellow jersey like a training ride whilst seasoned climbers (Nibili etc.) in the distance barely abele to keep up. He did this on more than one occasion.

Wiggins and Froome looking like concentration camp refugees somehow manage to go 1-2 in the ITT's and producing more power than the greatest TT'er of all time F.Cancellera. Producing more power for over an hour than guys 10kg more than them! That's like a feather weight fighter knocking down a heavyweight champion of the world!

Froome 10 minutes off the pace at Romandie - each stage.

Froome sick with illness that he can't train for 6-8 weeks of the year. Shows no form in any other race.

Wiggins to his credit had been in form all year but constant comments in the regards to being like Postal, loving Lance, 500 tests etc. are worrying.

are you getting it now....?

They talk of warming down, reverse periodisation, new methods of training dubbed "marginal gains" they head to the number one doper paradise in the world - Tenerife...

...looks a little crazy does it not?

Tenerife, Yates, Rogers, Lance, etc etc etc etc etc.






Ferrari. Period.


With all that cycling for the better part of 20 years has been mired in doping. Riddled with doping. The UCI has a lot of questions over its head. The same people who presided over the doping eras (plural) are still in control. Cyclists, DS and the like have been doping and working with questionable doctors since about 1987.

What changed in 2012 that one team (only) could dominate to such a degree but also be the the line in the sand of clean cycling?

I don't get it.

Here we go again, ignorance being peddled as evidence of doping. Just because you don't understand why something happens, it doesn't validate any hypothesis you care to throw up.
SKY's performance wasn't actually that outrageous. They just did what they had to and benefited from the lack of good, organised opposition.
They're well resourced, have recruited well, were well organised, well drilled and had one very specific goal with one rider, taking an opportunity (favourable parcourse and weak field) to get that result.
They rode defensively for almost the entire tour.

You say that Wiggins is working with Ferrari. Categorically, 100%.

I can tell you, categorically, 100% that he is a clean rider.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

People from England love drugs ergo Sky is doping

definite proof











otherwise why would you be dancing on tv like that

 

[sublimit]

People from England love drugs ergo Sky is doping

definite proof











otherwise why would you be dancing on tv like that

The lady with the Jimmy Savile hairdo. She must of spent 4 weeks in Tenerife.

 

[Benotti69]

Here we go again, ignorance being peddled as evidence of doping. Just because you don't understand why something happens, it doesn't validate any hypothesis you care to throw up.
SKY's performance wasn't actually that outrageous. They just did what they had to and benefited from the lack of good, organised opposition.
They're well resourced, have recruited well, were well organised, well drilled and had one very specific goal with one rider, taking an opportunity (favourable parcourse and weak field) to get that result.
They rode defensively for almost the entire tour.

You say that Wiggins is working with Ferrari. Categorically, 100%.

I can tell you, categorically, 100% that he is a clean rider.

The only way to be able to do that is if you are Wiggins.

You're not. You dont curse enough.

 

[bianchigirl]

Here we go again, ignorance being peddled as evidence of doping. Just because you don't understand why something happens, it doesn't validate any hypothesis you care to throw up.
SKY's performance wasn't actually that outrageous. They just did what they had to and benefited from the lack of good, organised opposition.
They're well resourced, have recruited well, were well organised, well drilled and had one very specific goal with one rider, taking an opportunity (favourable parcourse and weak field) to get that result.
They rode defensively for almost the entire tour.

You say that Wiggins is working with Ferrari. Categorically, 100%.

I can tell you, categorically, 100% that he is a clean rider.

You do realise all those statements were once used about USPS?

Would love to see your 100% categorical proof wiggins is 'clean' - would certainly put my mind at rest about some of the stuff I've heard coming out of BC

 

[andy1234]

So with 40 days to the WINTER SOLSTICE, the sun doesn't set at 4pm or there about's in Britain, thus implying at 6pm it is dark? Yeah, keep downing the choad champ and don't forget to swallow. Your fanboy love is coming out. What is this a competition among you Brits to get a special Christmas prize?

Free advice. The riders at Sky despise you. They have no respect for you and yet you're on here lauding them with praise and tribute. Madness. Absolute madness. Keep the lovin going and BTW...nice simplistic handle.

That is some seriously revealing internal dialogue you have going there.

Do you have these feelings regularly? If so, there are people who can help.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Something that is bothering me about Froome, his performance in the 2011 Vuelta was apparently down to him being doped up to the eyeballs due to a Sky doping programme.

Fair enough if that's what people wish to believe but maybe someone can explain why Sky were putting so much focus (and presumabbly expense) into getting Froome doped up when they clearly didn't rate him and had already planned to drop him from their squad at the end of the 2011 season? Clearly noone else on the Sky Vuelta squad was on the same programme as they were all completely useless apart from Froome and Wiggins.

 

[Froome19]

You're my friend now. But I cracked that RP was from the 70's because you were touting it as some form of new aged training from Sky. I started the thread on this very forum to debunk it as the new new training trick.

I'm not following how RP means going to certain locations in the world.

How does Reverse Periodisation mandate Tenerife as a training venue?

(scratching head).

*Thanks for at least acknowledging Sky performances were ridiculous at the Tour.

Sorry if the paragraph structure did not make it clear, as I only added in the RP point in the middle after and so the last sentence in the 1st paragraph is not referring to RP but merely general training. RP indeed does not have anything got to do with Tenerife.

Sky have been attempting to utilise anything which will give them an edge, that includes old techinques which they may adapt or new techniques. RP was certainly not invented by Sky, but rather is something they identified as being highly beneficial and therefore they decided to incorporate that, not to hard to swallow. It does not need to be new to give them an edge

 

[noddy69]

Apologies no offence intended. I'm enjoying the debate.

What say we go backwards and connect the dots.

Tour de France 2012 - Sky literally rip the legs of every other team to the point they cannot attack (several quotes provided by riders on opposing teams).

Sky not only ripped off peoples legs but they did it with 6 guys (minus the sprinter, his helper and the dude they lost week 1 - ****sou).

Rogers during the Tour taunted the opposition by saying that no one could attack and if they did it didn't matter because he, Little Richie and the other henchmen were all punching 450w+ day in, day out and they'd eventually catch any foolhardy attacker in a short space of time.

Froome-dawg goes a little crazy, attacks, slows, soft pedals, gestures to the yellow jersey like a training ride whilst seasoned climbers (Nibili etc.) in the distance barely abele to keep up. He did this on more than one occasion.

Wiggins and Froome looking like concentration camp refugees somehow manage to go 1-2 in the ITT's and producing more power than the greatest TT'er of all time F.Cancellera. Producing more power for over an hour than guys 10kg more than them! That's like a feather weight fighter knocking down a heavyweight champion of the world!

Froome 10 minutes off the pace at Romandie - each stage.

Froome sick with illness that he can't train for 6-8 weeks of the year. Shows no form in any other race.

Wiggins to his credit had been in form all year but constant comments in the regards to being like Postal, loving Lance, 500 tests etc. are worrying.

are you getting it now....?

They talk of warming down, reverse periodisation, new methods of training dubbed "marginal gains" they head to the number one doper paradise in the world - Tenerife...

...looks a little crazy does it not?

Tenerife, Yates, Rogers, Lance, etc etc etc etc etc.






Ferrari. Period.


With all that cycling for the better part of 20 years has been mired in doping. Riddled with doping. The UCI has a lot of questions over its head. The same people who presided over the doping eras (plural) are still in control. Cyclists, DS and the like have been doping and working with questionable doctors since about 1987.

What changed in 2012 that one team (only) could dominate to such a degree but also be the the line in the sand of clean cycling?

I don't get it.

All the dots could lead one to believe all is not as it is portrayed yet what could be most damning is a connection to Ferrari. Now I have heard noone else mention it with such certainty and seeming inside knowledge of the fact. So I agree that all may not be well I cant find anything that would give sufficient proof to actually nail it down. You seem to have it in what you say but up to now nothing to back up what you say on the matter.
Really by saying you have to do nothing...ie back up the statement with substance, then its all just an opinion on whats going on,nothing more, which after a statement of 100% certainty is a little disappointing.

 

[thehog]

Something that is bothering me about Froome, his performance in the 2011 Vuelta was apparently down to him being doped up to the eyeballs due to a Sky doping programme.

Fair enough if that's what people wish to believe but maybe someone can explain why Sky were putting so much focus (and presumabbly expense) into getting Froome doped up when they clearly didn't rate him and had already planned to drop him from their squad at the end of the 2011 season? Clearly noone else on the Sky Vuelta squad was on the same programme as they were all completely useless apart from Froome and Wiggins.

Because Wiggins wasn't 100% for the Vuelta due to his injury.

Rogers & Porte hadn't joined Sky at that stage so he was the only 2nd tier GT rider they had at that point in time.

 

[martinvickers]

Because Wiggins wasn't 100% for the Vuelta due to his injury.

Rogers & Porte hadn't joined Sky at that stage so he was the only 2nd tier GT rider they had at that point in time.

But he WASN'T a 2nd tier GT rider at that time, was he - no-one expected Froome's vuelta, in 2011, did they? Is that not the whole point?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Because Wiggins wasn't 100% for the Vuelta due to his injury.

Rogers & Porte hadn't joined Sky at that stage so he was the only 2nd tier GT rider they had at that point in time.

Makes no sense at all, you have told us repeatedly that Froome had shown nothing prior to the Vuleta, indeed, Sky were planning to drop him. Now you're telling us he was a second tier GT rider going into that race.

 

[Netserk]

But he WASN'T a 2nd tier GT rider at that time, was he - no-one expected Froome's vuelta, in 2011, did they? Is that not the whole point?

He was the sky lab rat. He was the guinea pig of the sky program.

 

[thehog]

All the dots could lead one to believe all is not as it is portrayed yet what could be most damning is a connection to Ferrari. Now I have heard noone else mention it with such certainty and seeming inside knowledge of the fact. So I agree that all may not be well I cant find anything that would give sufficient proof to actually nail it down. You seem to have it in what you say but up to now nothing to back up what you say on the matter.
Really by saying you have to do nothing...ie back up the statement with substance, then its all just an opinion on whats going on,nothing more, which after a statement of 100% certainty is a little disappointing.

Noddy you have to better than that.

All you're saying is "its not 100% certain" without providing any counter analysis yourself.

You've dumbed it down to "there is a god" - "no there's not" type argument.

I would have preferred if you put some thought and effort into it.

So here are my points I'd like to see you either debunk them or provide counter analysis of cleanness.


Wiggins/Froome -> Rogers/Yates/Julich(LANCE) -> Tenerife -> Extremem weight loss -> Absurd Tour performances - Doping/Ferrari.

 

[thehog]

Sky have been attempting to utilise anything which will give them an edge, that includes old techinques which they may adapt or new techniques. RP was certainly not invented by Sky, but rather is something they identified as being highly beneficial and therefore they decided to incorporate that, not to hard to swallow. It does not need to be new to give them an edge

"Anything that will give them the edge" ?

Anything but doping I think you mean!

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

He was the sky lab rat. He was the guinea pig of the sky program.

Cheers, that explains it.

 

[Ferminal]

But he WASN'T a 2nd tier GT rider at that time, was he - no-one expected Froome's vuelta, in 2011, did they? Is that not the whole point?

Yeh, this argument leans toward their program being more rider-organised than team-organised.

They made their own A-Team, it wasn't Brailsford picking winners.

 

[Froome19]

"Anything that will give them the edge" ?

Anything but doping I think you mean!

Maybe that is true, but we are not going to get anywhere if that is how you are going to react to such mentions. Or do you not admit to the slight possibility that Sky actually have exploited techniques which other teams do not?

 

[Froome19]

Wiggins/Froome -> Rogers/Yates/Julich(LANCE) -> Tenerife -> Extremem weight loss -> Absurd Tour performances - Doping/Ferrari.

What we are waiting for is counter proof to say that these links can not just occur naturally.

 

[thehog]

Maybe that is true, but we are not going to get anywhere if that is how you are going to react to such mentions. Or do you not admit to the slight possibility that Sky actually have exploited techniques which other teams do not?

I would agree.

If Sky are looking for the edge, have 100% zero tolerance policy on doping and want to win clean then why are they going to doper paradise?

Tenerife is not "new" nor is it "innovative" training technique. Its a tried and tested hotbed for dopers who are part of a year long program.

Why do they want to emulate "Postal" via statements in the media and go to Tenerife?

With the resources Sky have wouldn't they be building a practice in England for future/teams generations? Wouldn't they be looking for places outside of the regular haunts of the last 20 years of mired in doping cycling to gain "the edge" ?

Outside of Kerrison wouldn't they be hiring people with no doping history or very little? Former Rabo Doctors and the like doesn't make a lot sense.

Zero Tolerance + Marginal gains = Tenerife (Lance) ? Does not add up.

Sorry.

 

[thehog]

What we are waiting for is counter proof to say that these links can not just occur naturally.

The remaining 189 cyclists in the Tour peloton who could not attack is all the evidence you need.