Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Tom375]

Disagree to the bolded.

Why?

10 CHARetc.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Why?

10 CHARetc.

Because "the country" includes a lot of people who won't take it personally, as you seem to imply.

Are you embarassed that Tom Simpson died from drugs?
Were you embarassed when David Millar was caught for doping?

Whittle writes in his book that when Millar returned from his 2 year doping suspension, he rode the Tour and his name was painted on the road.

They were not embarassed.

Perhaps you could show one single case where a single person did something or caught doing something and the entire population of that person's home country were embarassed.

 

[Ferminal]

I agree, they would just go "oh well whatever, they are all dopers". Think that's what would happen with Evans/Aus.

Lesson from Armstrong is not to build an empire based on a lie. If you're just a professional cyclist who doped, not a big deal. If you're a megalomaniac who demands attention and adulation from all... you have further to fall.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Perhaps you could show one single case where a single person did something or caught doing something and the entire population of that person's home country were embarassed.

Canada/Ben Johnson?

 

[thehog]

Canada/Ben Johnson?

He's a hero now.

 

[Tom375]

Because "the country" includes a lot of people who won't take it personally, as you seem to imply.

I happen to live in this country and i would be embarrassed despite not being necessarily a Wiggins/Sky supporter, so yes my answer was personal and i don't claim to speak for the whole country but i would guess that there would be a significant proportion that would feel the same as me.
I think that with the amount of media hype built on this ("We're so clean" blah blah) etc. - I do think it would be a major embarrassment. I'm not saying life wouldn't go on - but this whole year (bubble if you like) of Britain is so great would be well and truly popped.

Are you embarassed that Tom Simpson died from drugs?
Were you embarassed when David Millar was caught for doping?

Sorry too young to remember Simpson case, I've read a few bits about it, I don't really need to say it to you but cycling is and always has been riddled with PED's - I can't imagine that i would want to cycle to work on speed and booze let alone up Mount Ventoux. Am i embarrassed? - a bit before my time and don't know enough about it but it sure was one hell of a way to get popped!
WRT David Millar - i wasn't really into him so didn't really pop on my radar at the time .
The one that got me was Contador because i really thought he was the dog's bollox. However when he got popped I remember wanting to believe his BC for a couple of weeks then thought better of it.

Perhaps you could show one single case where a single person did something or caught doing something and the entire population of that person's home country were embarassed.

Obviously impossible! - People are still denying the holocaust??
However on a personal note as I agree i don't speak for the entire country I'll leave that up to Queenie (she's your Queen as well isn't she? Ha ha! - Sorry i'm no monarchist) There are certain incidents that stand out in my mind as disgraceful (No obvious order)
1 - Ben Johnson - I don't think Canada has ever forgiven
2 - Michael Atherton's Ball tampering - (it just ain't cricket)
3 - Linford Christie (before you argue - i agree through the back door!) However he's definitely tainted here.
4 - Lance Armstrong - Ok it hasn't embarrassed an entire nation and i haven't spoken to any of my American friends recently however i'm sure apart from the Lance apologists - general mainstream of them is they are not going to be that happy bout it all.
In general terms U.S is a lot more divided on these issues just look at NFL/Baseball it's a pre-requisite that your on dope in these sports (ps this isn't to say rugby is not highly suspicious) All i'm saying is if it's outed that Wiggins was on dope whilst winning this year (I'm aware of the Armstrong comparisons - i'm on the fence) its gonna be a big dump in the soup!
I don't think the general public will take it well, I doubt that they will be painting his name in the road etc... It would be a big effing let down. This isn't to say that he wasn't doping merely what i perceive PO to be if it came out that he was. i.e. negative much as i believe would be the same in Australia if it came out that Evans was a doper..

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Maybe we're moving into a personality type differences here, because no sporting action of another Australian is ever going to embarrass me for being from the same country. Most sport bores me to tears, so I have no interest in the sport let alone people involved with the sport.

If Warne is being a twit, that's coz he's a twit.

Curious you say you don't think Canada has ever forgiven Ben Johnson. For embarrasing them?

 

[thehog]

Maybe we're moving into a personality type differences here, because no sporting action of another Australian is ever going to embarrass me for being from the same country. Most sport bores me to tears, so I have no interest in the sport let alone people involved with the sport.

If Warne is being a twit, that's coz he's a twit.

Curious you say you don't think Canada has ever forgiven Ben Johnson. For embarrasing them?

Canadians appreciated Johnson's honesty. After his initial denial he confessed shortly after at the Dublin trials.

Today he is wealthy, well spoken and admired.

Far from an embarrassment. He's very much respected.

 

[Tom375]

Canadians appreciated Johnson's honesty. After his initial denial he confessed shortly after at the Dublin trials.

Today he is wealthy, well spoken and admired.

Far from an embarrassment. He's very much respected.

Personally definitely prefer Johnson to Lewis

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Canadians appreciated Johnson's honesty. After his initial denial he confessed shortly after at the Dublin trials.

Today he is wealthy, well spoken and admired.

Far from an embarrassment. He's very much respected.

Well, things must have really changed. I remember seeing the 30 for 30 doc and he was living in the basement of his mothers (?) house.

And I have never met a Canadian that has used the word 'respected' whenever the topic came up. Interesting that you say they appreciate his honesty as it appears he proceeded to fail another drug test after the Dublin inquiry.

Still you aren't one to normally make up stuff so...

 

[martinvickers]

Canadians appreciated Johnson's honesty. After his initial denial he confessed shortly after at the Dublin trials.

Today he is wealthy, well spoken and admired.

Far from an embarrassment. He's very much respected.

Source?

Because last I checked, he was bouncing around living at various relatives, and still persona non grata for most of Canada, who at best thought him a product of the times...

 

[Tom375]

Maybe we're moving into a personality type differences here, because no sporting action of another Australian is ever going to embarrass me for being from the same country. Most sport bores me to tears, so I have no interest in the sport let alone people involved with the sport.

If Warne is being a twit, that's coz he's a twit.

Curious you say you don't think Canada has ever forgiven Ben Johnson. For embarrasing them?

As i said i don't think the country will grind to a halt if Wiggins is declared a cheat - i do think it will be very embarrassing though.
There's been so much sh*t about Wiggins and Sky being clean, he's just been voted SPOTY and his boss was just given coach of the year etc.. and said again that "they are clean" - if they are lying they HAVE to pay and i think that would be the majority view (even among the Sky fraternity) here as i think it would be in Australia. Everyone likes their team/country to win - but at all costs no!.
Having said this i don't consider cycling like this anyway! It's not cricket or football, i like individual riders, sometimes l like teams but its never down purely nationalistic lines.

because no sporting action of another Australian is ever going to embarrass me for being from the same country.

Kind of agreed - i wouldn't kill myself over it, I have a number of friends from SA, AUS, NZ & USA these sort of things come up all the time whilst i dont willingly take on the BS for someone that has represented GB (It ain't my fault) I do get caught up in it, so sometimes difficult to be objective.

 

[GPdesAmeriques]

Canadians appreciated Johnson's honesty. After his initial denial he confessed shortly after at the Dublin trials.

Today he is wealthy, well spoken and admired.

Far from an embarrassment. He's very much respected.

He confessed and then kept on doping!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Johnson_%28sprinter%29

What's he admired for? He was a "trainer" for Gaddafi's son in football, who then failed a drug test!

 

[sniper]

Wiggins praises UCI anti-doping work:

‘Steps have been taken a long time ago, which is why we’re one of the most successful sports for catching people.’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...oping-like-Lance-Armstrong.html#ixzz2FIqlgQ2X

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Wiggins praises UCI anti-doping work:

If you bothered to read the article

I’m very fortunate I was in the system. British Cycling supported me. Chris Boardman in my early 20s probably saved me, he taught me to do things the right way.

The title of the article hints at this:

British cycling and Boardman saved me from doping like Armstrong, says Wiggins


The bloodpassport is better than many other sports. Clearly not perfect but compared to the Armstrong era its a start.

 

[sniper]

If you bothered to read the article


The title of the article hints at this:

British cycling and Boardman saved me from doping like Armstrong, says Wiggins


You seem to want to give the piece a completely different tone.

I don't care about the article. In that statement (the one I quoted) he clearly suggests that we owe it to the existing anti-doping rules that a guy like Armstrong got caught. That's a false and rather apologetic statement, and indirect support of UCI.
Spin it, though, if you want.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I don't care about the article. In that statement (the one I quoted) he clearly suggests that we owe it to the existing anti-doping rules that a guy like Armstrong got caught. That's a false and rather apologetic statement, and indirect support of UCI.
Spin it, though, if you want.

No need to. As usual you will read whatever you want into it.

 

[ebandit]

to you?

He's a hero now.

to you...........................why?

of course brailsford described brad 'clean winner' it's sky policy after all

i would not be embarassed if brad was outed later..................but i sure

would be ANGRY and would not wish to see or hear anything from him

ever again

it's bad enough with millar spouting utter rubbish

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I don't care about the article. In that statement (the one I quoted) he clearly suggests that we owe it to the existing anti-doping rules that a guy like Armstrong got caught. That's a false and rather apologetic statement, and indirect support of UCI.
Spin it, though, if you want.

Actually, on further reflection I will concede my point. While I do think you are still reading a little to much into it, it does seem to be giving false credit.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Can I nitpick as well?

Given Brad started racing after the BP was introduced, it's safe to say he was effectively prevented doping like Armstrong regardless of where he came from. Given Brad didn't show much ability on the road pre-2009, it's safe to say, he didn't dope like Armstrong.

However, just as the "I have never tested positive" can be true but not an admission of non-doping, "saved me from doping like Armstrong" can also be true, but not discount *some* doping - possibly even to the limit allowable by the BP, both on the track and more tellingly on the road.

Pretend I am just an Internet forum poster, and not a homicidal, axe-wielding, frothing at the mouth, Wiggins hating, Brit hating, Australian, bone-idle lazy w*nker c*nt. If you dare.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Can I nitpick as well?

Given Brad started racing after the BP was introduced, it's safe to say he was effectively prevented doping like Armstrong regardless of where he came from. Given Brad didn't show much ability on the road pre-2009, it's safe to say, he didn't dope like Armstrong.

Armstrong also raced after the bloodpassport was introduced thus rendering your pointless observation even less so (If that were possible)

However, just as the "I have never tested positive" can be true but not an admission of non-doping, "saved me from doping like Armstrong" can also be true, but not discount *some* doping - possibly even to the limit allowable by the BP, both on the track and more tellingly on the road.

Wow, your scientific background is really showing now. You're like Stephen Hawking. Feel free to (re)interpret that

 

[JimmyFingers]

Signs within signs....

Think people may be over-analysising all of this. But chin chin, do carry on with your mudpies

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Armstrong also raced after the bloodpassport was introduced thus rendering your pointless observation even less so (If that were possible)

Ah so Brad was talking about LA's 2010 doping was he? Where Lance rode like a complete gumby. Or his 2009 doping, where he managed a whopping 3rd.

Compared to 2012, Brad makes 2009 Lance Armstrong - known doper - look like a Pro-conti rider.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Ah so Brad was talking about LA's 2010 doping was he?

Haha, really? This is the best you can come up with Mr Science and Intuition?

 

[martinvickers]

Ah so Brad was talking about LA's 2010 doping was he? Where Lance rode like a complete gumby. Or his 2009 doping, where he managed a whopping 3rd.

Compared to 2012, Brad makes 2009 Lance Armstrong - known doper - look like a Pro-conti rider.

Are we not rather overlooking the fact that, doped or not, 2009, 2010 Armstrong was 38, 39 years of age?

It might be enough for an aged J Longo in a thinner women's peleton, but even LA '99 style doping cannot mask the traces of the years as the athlete approaches 40, never mind what reduced level of doping was necessary not to tip off the BP during the comeback career...