Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Susan Westemeyer]

Please remember this is the Clinic. Take the general discussion elsewhere. Further off-topic postings will be deleted.

Thank you.

Susan

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Bit in the Guardian about British cycling

Since suggestions have been made that the success is down to a Eastern-bloc style doping programme. It shows the money that has been poured into the sport, and the focus on development from grassroots and boosting participation on all levels.



Mainly relevant to the discussion me and Libertine Seguros where having some pages earlier, illustrating how 'foreign' road-racing seemed, and the necessity to go abroad to pursue it, and how that since 1997 and lottery funding that has changed very dramatically.

To put it into its most basic terms, I did not say that there is an Eastern Bloc-style doping program going on at BC. There may or may not be, but I don't know enough about track cycling and its workings to make any calls.

I did however, as cautiously-worded as possible, suggest that it might be that some riders who would have been low down the priority list (such as eg those road riders outside of British Cycling, which had until recently been mostly track-focused, but looking to take advantage of their being around at the same time) might be tempted to cut corners to jump the queue, as it were.

 

[JimmyFingers]

To put it into its most basic terms, I did not say that there is an Eastern Bloc-style doping program going on at BC. There may or may not be, but I don't know enough about track cycling and its workings to make any calls.

I did however, as cautiously-worded as possible, suggest that it might be that some riders who would have been low down the priority list (such as eg those road riders outside of British Cycling, which had until recently been mostly track-focused, but looking to take advantage of their being around at the same time) might be tempted to cut corners to jump the queue, as it were.

I realise that you stopped short of stating there was one, but you did suggest it was a possibility, even a strong one, on the basis of the emergence of a generation of talented road riders specifically, and British cyclists in general. The article I linked to I hoped would illustrate the work and investment behind the scenes that has gone into developing that generation. And moreover, the difficulty, before that money started being pumped into the sport and the Sky team itself, for talented British riders to break through on the European road scene, which is why we have usually seen only one or a two a generation.

I can see your theory specifically regarding JTL and Froome and it could have some merit. I still think we need to reserve judgement on how good JTL is when tested in the proving grounds of the classics, where I think he will unleashed principally next season

 

[will10]

So British, and good, signs for Sky ergo a doper

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Actually, I think you have an entirely different stick altogether.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Actually, I think you have an entirely different stick altogether.

It wouldn't be the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last

 

[oldcrank]

Meanwhile in a village far far away; Contador trains.

Trains, eats his special Spanish steak and sleeps.
Trains, eats his special Spanish steak and sleeps.
And so on.

 

[thehog]

Trains, eats his special Spanish steak and sleeps.
Trains, eats his special Spanish steak and sleeps.
And so on.

Repeat to fade...

 

[Benotti69]

Tygart is "very concerned" about the zero-tolerance approach taken by Team Sky to drugs, fearing it could be counterproductive.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/19/team-sky-zero-tolerance-usada

 

[sniper]

Tygart is "very concerned" about the zero-tolerance approach taken by Team Sky to drugs, fearing it could be counterproductive.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/19/team-sky-zero-tolerance-usada

You don't have to be a wizzard to see that Sky's zerotolerance is a big fail. A smoke screen and not even a good one. It's good of course to see Tygart pointing this out.
The best thing Sky can do is have guys like JV, Millar and (sadly as of late) Walsh, i.e. guys in whom we (are supposed to) trust, do more mouth-to-mouth propaganda for Team Sky.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

You don't have to be a wizzard to see that Sky's zerotolerance is a big fail. A smoke screen and not even a good one. It's good of course to see Tygart pointing this out.
The best thing Sky can do is have guys like JV, Millar and (sadly as of late) Walsh, i.e. guys in whom we (are supposed to) trust, do more mouth-to-mouth propaganda for Team Sky.

Their ZTP was mandated by the sponsor, after the USADA report. Brailsford did not create this headache.

 

[biopass]

You don't have to be a wizzard to see that Sky's zerotolerance is a big fail. A smoke screen and not even a good one. It's good of course to see Tygart pointing this out.
The best thing Sky can do is have guys like JV, Millar and (sadly as of late) Walsh, i.e. guys in whom we (are supposed to) trust, do more mouth-to-mouth propaganda for Team Sky.

Why? What have JV and Millars talking accomplished compared to SKY? Who just fires and dismishes everyone within their ranks who has minimal involvement with doping in the past.

 

[coinneach]

Tygart is "very concerned" about the zero-tolerance approach taken by Team Sky to drugs, fearing it could be counterproductive.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/19/team-sky-zero-tolerance-usada

OK, he's entitled to his opinion, and should be heard, BUT I think there's more than one way to go forward. In 5 years, we'll know which way has worked best. Sky can't manage anything other than Sky: currently, it seems to work (on the outside). Time will tell about its long term affect.
IF they had confidence in a UCI led truth & reconciliation process, maybe they wouldn't be doing what they are.
I wish there would be a UCI led truth & reconciliation process, but I sure as hell ain't holding my breath.
I say let Sky get on with it their way: we'll see.

 

[sniper]

Their ZTP was mandated by the sponsor, after the USADA report. Brailsford did not create this headache.

do we have DB on the record saying he doesn't agree with the policy but is forced by the sponsor? Not that I'm aware. We don't really know what DB really thinks of this policy and whether he would have had the power to block these measures, do we?

Why? What have JV and Millars talking accomplished compared to SKY? Who just fires and dismishes everyone within their ranks who has minimal involvement with doping in the past.

well, JV managed to pull the wool over Walsh's eyes wrt Sky, at least partially, meaning we've (hopefully only temporarily) lost one of the critical minds who helped bring down harmstrong and (if JV hadn't pulled the wool over his eyes) could have helped in REALLY changing cycling now rather than pretending that cycling has already changed significantly (JV, Millar).
Bottom line: Sky is keeping us for fools, and Sky propaganda like what we hear from JV and Millar enables Sky to do that.

 

[richtea]

To put it into its most basic terms, I did not say that there is an Eastern Bloc-style doping program going on at BC. There may or may not be, but I don't know enough about track cycling and its workings to make any calls.

I did however, as cautiously-worded as possible, suggest that it might be that some riders who would have been low down the priority list (such as eg those road riders outside of British Cycling, which had until recently been mostly track-focused, but looking to take advantage of their being around at the same time) might be tempted to cut corners to jump the queue, as it were.

You claimed Froome was less consistent than Schleck. Regardless of what you think about his rise to to prominence, his results over 6 months are substantially superior to (and more consistent than) any season of Schleck's I remember. Do you really think he is less consistent than Schleck?

 

[Ferminal]

I think it's more Froome being one of the worst on the road in Corsica and Romandie only to emerge with superpowers in the Dauphine. I think 2013 we will see him follow the Wiggins model though.

Andy Schleck for all his antics and the fact he only cares about two races, still manages to finish ahead of the sprinters in most stage races.

 

[Mellow Velo]

You don't have to be a wizzard to see that Sky's zerotolerance is a big fail. A smoke screen and not even a good one. It's good of course to see Tygart pointing this out.
The best thing Sky can do is have guys like JV, Millar and (sadly as of late) Walsh, i.e. guys in whom we (are supposed to) trust, do more mouth-to-mouth propaganda for Team Sky.

A wizard might come in handy, though. Maybe he could pull a few more, high profile dissenters out of his hat?
Lets hope Kimmage doesn't say anything nice about Sky, any time soon, otherwise it won't be about zero tolerance, but zero quotable prophets.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I reckon if they could get 2 of Ashenden, Kimmage or Lemond to support them, they'd have the full house.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Andy Schleck for all his antics and the fact he only cares about two races, still manages to finish ahead of the sprinters in most stage races.

Excluding this year which is/was a write off he has been remarkably consistent when just looking at the Tour and LBL.

In fact, that is what makes it all the more frustrating when he appears to be lazy and unmotivated for other races.

 

[Ferminal]

Excluding this year which is/was a write off he has been remarkably consistent when just looking at the Tour and LBL.

In fact, that is what makes it all the more frustrating when he appears to be lazy and unmotivated for other races.

Yeh, almost like he always has the form but just sets a max on his powermeter and refuses to go over it.

It's not even like it's a special training method as big brother is a lot more adventurous.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Tygart is "very concerned" about the zero-tolerance approach taken by Team Sky to drugs, fearing it could be counterproductive.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/19/team-sky-zero-tolerance-usada

Tygart is viewing this from the angle of what's best for cycling. Sky are viewing this as what's best for Sky.

I don't think Sky really care that much if it emerges that AN Other rider or support staff has been involved in doping in the past having signed the document. They will be able to say that they gave the rider a fair chance, were lied to, and in the absence of any ability to put a rider under oath, there's nothing more that they could have done. Thus, Sky's backside will be covered re hiring people with a dodgy past, one would think, which is their prime concern.

They clearly don't care too much about losing key personnel who can't sign the document, given how many such personnel they have lost.

This is obviously a completely different issue to any current doping. If that emerges, then Sky and the riders are stuffed, irrespective of what documents have been signed.

 

[RownhamHill]

do we have DB on the record saying he doesn't agree with the policy but is forced by the sponsor? Not that I'm aware. We don't really know what DB really thinks of this policy and whether he would have had the power to block these measures, do we?

We do know whether he would have the power to block the measures.

He wouldn't.

Sky isn't the sponsor of the team: it is the owner.

And likewise Dave Brailsford isn't the owner of the team, he's an employee - all be it a pretty influential employee who the owner probably listens to on most matters. Ultimately though - as in most (all?) businesses - if the owner says jump, the workers have to grit their teeth and say how high (or run the risk of jeopardising their own employment). So I don't think you're ever going to see him 'on the record' slagging off his boss. (Or at least not while in this current employment.)

I don't think that makes him an unusual human being.

 

[The Hitch]

A wizard might come in handy, though. Maybe he could pull a few more, high profile dissenters out of his hat?
Lets hope Kimmage doesn't say anything nice about Sky, any time soon, otherwise it won't be about zero tolerance, but zero quotable prophets.

Kimmage - who btw has.not only not said anything good about sky but has attacked themis imo far more credible.on this than walsh who for all his heroics on lance, hasn't been watching the sport for a long time.

Kimmage also offered substance- when he asked bailsford about lienders and wiggins about his comments. All Walsh - who is heavily guided by his emotions as he so wants sky to be clean, did was say - i had a private chat with bailsford and liked what he said.

I wonder if Walsh even understands any of the arguments against sky. When he talks about wiggins - he says he understands people are skeptical because precious tdf winners doped. Even diehard wiggins fans have to admit the case against wiggo and bailsford is a little.bit bigger than - all cyclists dope.

 

[The Hitch]

Tygart is "very concerned" about the zero-tolerance approach taken by Team Sky to drugs, fearing it could be counterproductive.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/dec/19/team-sky-zero-tolerance-usada

Sigh, once again this past will always come.out bull****. When will it come out on indurain? Im still waiting. 21 years and counting.

 

[martinvickers]

Kimmage - who btw has.not only not said anything good about sky but has attacked themis imo far more credible.on this than walsh who for all his heroics on lance, hasn't been watching the sport for a long time.

Kimmage also offered substance- when he asked bailsford about lienders and wiggins about his comments. All Walsh - who is heavily guided by his emotions as he so wants sky to be clean, did was say - i had a private chat with bailsford and liked what he said.

I wonder if Walsh even understands any of the arguments against sky. When he talks about wiggins - he says he understands people are skeptical because precious tdf winners doped. Even diehard wiggins fans have to admit the case against wiggo and bailsford is a little.bit bigger than that.

And there goes David Walsh under the bus. Boy, you're nearly as bad as Armstrong for ditching people once they are no longer of use to you...

you have to laugh.

 

[MartinGT]

Their ZTP was mandated by the sponsor, after the USADA report. Brailsford did not create this headache.

Any proof of that?