Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[martinvickers]

I think he's right. You do need to school up.

...(facepalm, deep sigh...)

oh hoggie, hoggie, hoggie...what to do with ye, at all...

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

On twitter:

If you don't think Aicar is an issue, ask members of pro peloton who are diesels who are getting killed by "skinny guys" and shouldn't be.

@UCI_Overlord Remember Cadel's tweet, 'These skinny guys can sure TT...'

@jeffvolkmer Ah yes, Cadel's veiled tweet ... wasn't it during the Olympics?

https://twitter.com/UCI_Overlord/status/285067979174055936

Froome in quickest, these 'skinny' guys have transformed TT'ing this year. Wiggo still unbeaten in '12

https://twitter.com/CadelOfficial/status/230677904411987968

 

[Froome19]

When you were so soundly put to bed by a force from nowhere (ok maybe not) then you will be a tad bitter.

 

[Joachim]

Yes, not winning the Tour a second time probably means he won't be able to afford a Ferrari.

 

[thehog]

When you were so soundly put to bed by a force from nowhere (ok maybe not) then you will be a tad bitter.

A tad reflective and knowing.

Skinny guys TT'ing. What hope is left?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-judge-says-doping-is-still-a-problem-in-cycling
"Riders have recently told me that there are substances in use that can't be found by anti-doping tests. One is Erythropoietin Z by Retacrit, it's known as EPO Z. There's a Chinese EPO that has been released, I don't know its name but it can’t be found (in tests) and was definitely the queen of the Olympics. There's also AICAR, that is brought in from the East as a powder and is apparently a kind of genetic doping. In simple terms, it helps reset muscle fibres after huge efforts. It can't be found in anti-doping tests either."

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/cqRankingTeam.asp?current=1
1. [Gbr] Sky Professional Cycling Team PRT 15070
2. [Rus] Katusha Team PRT 11754
3. [Bel] OmegaPharma - Quick Step PRT 10770
4. [Esp] Movistar Team PRT 9995
5. [Lux] Radioshack - Nissan PRT 9673
6. [Ita] Liquigas - Cannondale PRT 9427
7. [Usa] BMC Racing Team PRT 9062
8. [Usa] Team Garmin - Sharp PRT 8802

Please explain.

 

[peloton]

On twitter:







https://twitter.com/UCI_Overlord/status/285067979174055936



https://twitter.com/CadelOfficial/status/230677904411987968

That's probably the first time I've ever seen a Pro "question" others performance in public. Cadel has a new fan.

 

[martinvickers]

Please explain.

Are you suggesting that 'chinese' epo and other varients can evade the blood passport? Surely if they have similar effects to 'standard' epo, the blood passport would fluctuate in similar ways?

 

[peloton]

Are you suggesting that 'chinese' epo and other varients can evade the blood passport? Surely if they have similar effects to 'standard' epo, the blood passport would fluctuate in similar ways?

You are giving way too much belief for the blood passport. Just sayin'

 

[martinvickers]

You are giving way too much belief for the blood passport. Just sayin'

I entirely accept that's possible. I have no belief it's "100%" or close - i do believe that, in practice, it 'restricts' doping- my question to DW was in that light. I could be wrong - i could also be right.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think we worked out, based on UCI testing data, that the chance of being caught for EPO in an OOC test was 5%. Introduce new EPO products that are not detectable and the probability of being caught for EPO reduces to ... 0%.

It's always a risk vs reward equation. If the risk approaches 0, or the reward approaches infinity (or more money than you could spend in an hour), the likelihood that people will take the risk is high. Combine 0 risk with infinite reward and you'd be silly not to take the risk.

Noone here actually knows the detail of how the ABP works. Noone. A sample set as small as Ryder's from the 2012 Giro shows how sensitive it can be to minor discrepancies.

eg: does anyone know how much of a rider's data is used for calculating the average values for biomarkers? There's 5 year's data now. Is it all used?

All the BP does is alert testers as to who should be targeted for subsequent extra testing. If that extra testing cannot detect the substances being used... we're back to the IQ test. Are you being ridiculous with your doping, or massaging it to manipulate your average biomarkers over time so they are acceptably within your "biological fingerprint mean" +/- 3 SD? Add in a non-verifiable claim that "everyone tested high", some handling anomalies and you can pretty much get away with anything, imo.

 

[martinvickers]

I think we worked out, based on UCI testing data, that the chance of being caught for EPO in an OOC test was 5%. Introduce new EPO products that are not detectable and the probability of being caught for EPO reduces to ... 0%.

It's always a risk vs reward equation. If the risk approaches 0, or the reward approaches infinity (or more money than you could spend in an hour), the likelihood that people will take the risk is high. Combine 0 risk with infinite reward and you'd be silly not to take the risk.

Noone here actually knows the detail of how the ABP works. Noone. A sample set as small as Ryder's from the 2012 Giro shows how sensitive it can be to minor discrepancies.

eg: does anyone know how much of a rider's data is used for calculating the average values for biomarkers? There's 5 year's data now. Is it all used?

All the BP does is alert testers as to who should be targeted for subsequent extra testing. If that extra testing cannot detect the substances being used... we're back to the IQ test. Are you being ridiculous with your doping, or massaging it to manipulate your average biomarkers over time so they are acceptably within your "biological fingerprint mean" +/- 3 SD? Add in a non-verifiable claim that "everyone tested high", some handling anomalies and you can pretty much get away with anything, imo.

I think that's an overly pessimistic take, DW, but I can't deny it's a plausible one - I believe you're wrong, I hope you're wrong - but I've no faith you're wrong...

 

[Tinman]

I think that's an overly pessimistic take, DW, but I can't deny it's a plausible one - I believe you're wrong, I hope you're wrong - but I've no faith you're wrong...

Very opinionated comment Martin, not a lot of fact in there. It's been interesting to see your character development in The Clinic as you discover/learn more. One day you may look back at your posting history and reflect on that.

DW is right. Bar one unknown. We don't know yet whether Epo Z can be picked up by the current Epo test. Epo Z is likely to have a lot of similarity in structure to currently tested EPO, and its pick up will depend on how the Epo assay works. I would think it quite likely it will be picked up also. I would think most EPO variants would likely be picked up by the current test.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

When the next UCI anti-doping report is released, we should be able to more definitively tell whether my cynicism is misplaced or not.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

DW is right. Bar one unknown. We don't know yet whether Epo Z can be picked up by the current Epo test. Epo Z is likely to have a lot of similarity in structure to currently tested EPO, and its pick up will depend on how the Epo assay works. I would think it quite likely it will be picked up also. I would think most EPO variants would likely be picked up by the current test.

They don't publicise the % isoforms required for a positive, but it's a % and not a binary result. If the EPO isoforms of EPO Z more closely match those produced by the body's natural EPO, then we're all kinds of altitude camp enabled.

Did you know urine left at room temp shifts isoforms up? ie away from natural towards exogenous EPO isoform appearance?

 

[martinvickers]

Very opinionated comment Martin, not a lot of fact in there.

True enough, Tinman - but the difference remains that I separate the two -as to be fair, most of the time, does Wiggo - i may not accept or agree with his explanations, but he does try to explain, and I appreciate that, as I've told him before.

It's been interesting to see your character development in The Clinic as you discover/learn more.

I'm glad to amuse!

DW is right. Bar one unknown. We don't know yet whether Epo Z can be picked up by the current Epo test. Epo Z is likely to have a lot of similarity in structure to currently tested EPO, and its pick up will depend on how the Epo assay works. I would think it quite likely it will be picked up also. I would think most EPO variants would likely be picked up by the current test.

I think the italian judge's comments were interesting, but maybe not entirely wise. As you know ( ) I worry when 'fact' is mixed with 'emotion' - and the judge's comment's seemed a bit on the emotional side of the spectrum -

" There's a Chinese EPO that has been released, I don't know its name but it can’t be found (in tests) and was definitely the queen of the Olympics"

I find his 'definitely the queen' a bit hard to swallow - if he doesn't know it's name, it can't be found and he's relying on what he's told by riders, i'm not convinced he's in a position to be quite so 'definite' - which then raises the question why he claims it...I don't know, it may be lost in translation...anyway, i remain gullible, hopeful and fearful in equal measure...

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

@martinvickers

This article might interest you.

The biopasspot can only detect the extreme dopers. Although I think it has played a role in getting riders to dial back their doping.

 

[thehog]

That's probably the first time I've ever seen a Pro "question" others performance in public. Cadel has a new fan.

TeeJay had a pop as well. Basso said his piece.

 

[Ferminal]

Are you suggesting that 'chinese' epo and other varients can evade the blood passport? Surely if they have similar effects to 'standard' epo, the blood passport would fluctuate in similar ways?

We know from Ashenden et al that large doses of EPO are irrelevant in terms of the passport, at least in a clinical setting. Testing > biopassport in terms of limiting the ability to use EPO.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

We know from Ashenden et al that large doses of EPO are irrelevant in terms of the passport, at least in a clinical setting. Testing > biopassport in terms of limiting the ability to use EPO.

I was about to post something similar. There are 4 recent items re: bio passport / doping in the pro peloton now:

1. Ashenden leaves UCI's BP panel due to restrictions on being critical of it or its processes. He is no longer part of it, so won't know what's going wrong, but if something was going wrong, he would not have been allowed to say things like what he found out in

2. Ashenden's study which showed you can boost your Hgb pretty much to similar levels of doping as before and not get pinged by the BP. He has also spoken to people in the scene and

3. Ashenden claims there are pockets of sophisticated dopers even within the "new age" teams. This is finaly backed up by our friend

4. Benedetto Roberti, who says not only is doping ongoing, but there are new EPO products in use that are undetectable, AICAR is being used as some kind of genetic doping, and Michele Ferrari is still doing training plans - only - for riders, for 10s of 1000s of dollars each, despite being banned.

With all this being affirmed by experts / people with their finger firmly on the pulse, Sky pull off one of the most dominating displays at the TdF in years (14 days straight in yellow?) and one of the most dominating displays for the 2012 pro tour + Olympic calendar.

 

[Mellow Velo]

On twitter:

https://twitter.com/UCI_Overlord/status/285067979174055936

https://twitter.com/CadelOfficial/status/230677904411987968

That's probably the first time I've ever seen a Pro "question" others performance in public. Cadel has a new fan.

Whereas, immediately post Lance, the GTs were transformed by ex-mountain bikers, Landis, Rasmussen and yours truly.

Yeah, much more solid ground.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are you suggesting that 'chinese' epo and other varients can evade the blood passport? Surely if they have similar effects to 'standard' epo, the blood passport would fluctuate in similar ways?

Of course, we also have the fact that the blood passport is almost totally worthless in certain cases, such as Chris Froome, because the fact that he had a disease that would affect his blood values means that representative values they could assess his Vuelta/Dauphiné/Tour values against are hard to come by.

 

[peloton]

TeeJay had a pop as well. Basso said his piece.

Good to hear, thanks

Whereas, immediately post Lance, the GTs were transformed by ex-mountain bikers, Landis, Rasmussen and yours truly.

Yeah, much more solid ground.

Not saying Cadel is clean, just that it's good to see riders talk publicly about something we speculate for pages here

 

[martinvickers]

Of course, we also have the fact that the blood passport is almost totally worthless in certain cases, such as Chris Froome, because the fact that he had a disease that would affect his blood values means that representative values they could assess his Vuelta/Dauphiné/Tour values against are hard to come by.

That's an entirely fair point.

 

[martinvickers]

I was about to post something similar. There are 4 recent items re: bio passport / doping in the pro peloton now:

1. Ashenden leaves UCI's BP panel due to restrictions on being critical of it or its processes. He is no longer part of it, so won't know what's going wrong, but if something was going wrong, he would not have been allowed to say things like what he found out in

2. Ashenden's study which showed you can boost your Hgb pretty much to similar levels of doping as before and not get pinged by the BP. He has also spoken to people in the scene and

3. Ashenden claims there are pockets of sophisticated dopers even within the "new age" teams. This is finaly backed up by our friend

4. Benedetto Roberti, who says not only is doping ongoing, but there are new EPO products in use that are undetectable, AICAR is being used as some kind of genetic doping, and Michele Ferrari is still doing training plans - only - for riders, for 10s of 1000s of dollars each, despite being banned.

With all this being affirmed by experts / people with their finger firmly on the pulse, Sky pull off one of the most dominating displays at the TdF in years (14 days straight in yellow?) and one of the most dominating displays for the 2012 pro tour + Olympic calendar.

Yet,as i understand it, the climbing speeds and power outputs in the tour were noticably down on the super-lance era. Am I wrong in that?