Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[sniper]

One also shouldn't forget Sky's ties with the UCI.
I have no doubt they are protected.

Meaning: perhaps what we are seeing is the modest talents of Froome and Wiggins flourishing on a full-throttle doping program (enabled by UCI protection) racing against teams without said protection, i.e. competing teams forced to work with more limited programs in danger of getting busted by the passport.
This scenario would also account for the reduced average climbing speeds.

 

[Froome19]

Fact (not speculation) is that considerable parts of the peloton are still doping, so Froome19, martinvickers and others have to explain (or at least attempt to explain) how Sky are able to beat doped competitors.
Which marginal gains are the crucial ones? Or is talent the key? In case of the latter, we must assume Brailsford is one hell of a talent spotter.

Fact that considerably parts of the peloton are still doping?

I would like a list of the facts you have that VDB, Nibali and Tejay Van Garderen the rest of the Top 5 in the Tour were doping at the Tour.

Anyways I quote to you Jonathan Vaughters who on this forum said explicitly that Sky have a couple of riders on their Tour team who could lead any team in a GT in their own right. Porte, Rogers and co. are total beasts and indeed are incredibly talented.

I do not know which marginal gains are the crucial ones, but the fact that Sky take a professional approach to the sport is something which gives them a tremendous boost over any of their rivals. I was reading a recent interview with Millar where he was lamenting over where cycling is at the moment and how the training techniques and all that is so far behind what it should be (totally unrelated to the clinic that interview). Sky are the team who have managed to further that and become more professional in their training and their way of approaching the physical side of the sport. I also read a feature in a recent magazine which interviewed Kerrison and a DS about how they would set in motion plans for Brad to do the Giro. I do not believe that any other team in the peloton could ever hope to rival those plans and that is where Sky hold the edge. And when it comes to pushing your body to the limits that edge becomes more and more prominent.

 

[Froome19]

One also shouldn't forget Sky's ties with the UCI.
I have no doubt they are protected.

Meaning: perhaps what we are seeing is the modest talents of Froome and Wiggins flourishing on a full-throttle doping program (enabled by UCI protection) racing against teams without said protection, i.e. competing teams forced to work with more limited programs in danger of getting busted by the passport.
This scenario would also account for the reduced average climbing speeds.

Once again ridiculous accusations without any proof.

This is something which would be staggering if let out and would be more of a surprise than anything I saw in the USADA documents. It can only be best summed up as a wild conspiracy theory.

Unless of course you have tangible proof to even suggest such a thing.

AFAIK the only hint of that is due to the meeting Sky had with the UCI prior to Tour, which of course could have been for a hundred other things such as proving to the UCI that Sky were clean, and if it was not.. then why have a flipping public meeting which we all hear about? How many times does Lance have meetings with the UCI in the USADA files? No they are not that thick to do such things without being covert, telephones, emails.. that is the way to go. Come on be realistic.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

but the fact that Sky take a professional approach to the sport is something which gives them a tremendous boost over any of their rivals.

Gotta be friggin kiddin me. Professional approach? Where were you in the nineties? If there is a nation that takes 'a professional approach' on cycling it would be the Italians.

This is just insulting Froome19.

Remember Lugano 1996?

 

[thehog]

Fact that considerably parts of the peloton are still doping?

I would like a list of the facts you have that VDB, Nibali and Tejay Van Garderen the rest of the Top 5 in the Tour were doping at the Tour.

Anyways I quote to you Jonathan Vaughters who on this forum said explicitly that Sky have a couple of riders on their Tour team who could lead any team in a GT in their own right. Porte, Rogers and co. are total beasts and indeed are incredibly talented.

I do not know which marginal gains are the crucial ones, but the fact that Sky take a professional approach to the sport is something which gives them a tremendous boost over any of their rivals. I was reading a recent interview with Millar where he was lamenting over where cycling is at the moment and how the training techniques and all that is so far behind what it should be (totally unrelated to the clinic that interview). Sky are the team who have managed to further that and become more professional in their training and their way of approaching the physical side of the sport. I also read a feature in a recent magazine which interviewed Kerrison and a DS about how they would set in motion plans for Brad to do the Giro. I do not believe that any other team in the peloton could ever hope to rival those plans and that is where Sky hold the edge. And when it comes to pushing your body to the limits that edge becomes more and more prominent.

I read an English speaking magazine that said, then another English speaking interview that said....

Fiddlesticks. You have no idea what the other teams are doing for training. You read a few articles about Sky in English and take it at virtue.

Go YouTube QuickSteps training. Or Lotto, or LiquiGas. Look at what they're doing.

We've got to stop this "Sky/English speaking new training techniques" vs "old school Europe" stuff. It's just Lance all over again.

Do you really think the Classics winning teams pumped Sky in those races on old school techniques only?

Enough!

 

[Ferminal]

Is a doping regime not a component of a meticulous, professional approach to the sport? Riis didn't do himself to the eyeballs because he was lazy. Or in other words, if one is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on illicit preparation wouldn't you also expect them to ensure that the legitimate aspects of their performance are also best-practice.

 

[Froome19]

Gotta be friggin kiddin me. Professional approach? Where were you in the nineties? If there is a nation that takes 'a professional approach' on cycling it would be the Italians.

This is just insulting Froome19.

Remember Lugano 1996?

On a basis of monitoring every single piece of data? Not letting any rider out of sight barely? Every single training ride monitored?

There is a climb near Girona I believe where all the locals (Hesjedal, Martin etc) go and climb and there is an unofficial ongoing competition to see who can get the best time. They just go along and ride the climb. Hesjedal broke the record totally unprepared one day with some snacks and stuff hanging from his bike and was all over the place after not having warmed up. Then the story goes that Wiggins comes along one day (he does not live in the area) and is escorted by some Sky staff in a Sky car and then warmed up on rollers, has had his bike stripped down and dons his skin suit before riding up the climb and breaking the record. That is what we are talking about here.

No I really do not think that we have seen anything like that at least to this level, in the past.

 

[Froome19]

I read an English speaking magazine that said, then another English speaking interview that said....

Fiddlesticks. You have no idea what the other teams are doing for training. You read a few articles about Sky in English and take it at virtue.

Go YouTube QuickSteps training. Or Lotto, or LiquiGas. Look at what they're doing.

We've got to stop this "Sky/English speaking new training techniques" vs "old school Europe" stuff. It's just Lance all over again.

Do you really think the Classics winning teams pumped Sky in those races on old school techniques only?

Enough!

What are they doing Hog?

I have indeed read about most of those teams and their training regimes and to me they have no a speck on Sky's approach.

And do not get me started on BMC..

 

[Froome19]

Is a doping regime not a component of a meticulous, professional approach to the sport? Riis didn't do himself to the eyeballs because he was lazy. Or in other words, if one is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on illicit preparation wouldn't you also expect them to ensure that the legitimate aspects of their performance are also best-practice.

Yes, but then again it can be seen from the other way round as well. Can it not?
But I agree that if Sky were doping that a professional approach would also be conducted. I do not use it as conclusive proof they are not. Just that it can explain their superiority in comparison to the other teams.

 

[Ferminal]

My point is not about Sky but why other teams would not be hot on their heels with this "professional approach", especially those teams with a long history of systematic doping.... OPQS, Liquigas, Radioshack etc etc.

Sky are better because any one or a combination of:

1) They are physiologically superior

2) They are doping better

3) They have a "professional approach" which other teams do not

Do not rule out the fact that they just may be better - with 2 + 3 being equal across the top competitors.

Edit: Sorry, should read "possibility" not fact, we of course cannot speak in absolutes.

 

[thehog]

What are they doing Hog?

I have indeed read about most of those teams and their training regimes and to me they have no a speck on Sky's approach.

And do not get me started on BMC..

You speak Flemish? Italian? I dare you to go YouTube LiquiGas training. You'll be surprised. Yoga, meditation in addition to their power analysis of every rider. YouTube QuickStep buildup to the Classics. You think these teams just give up at the Tour?

If Sky's approach is so good why didn't they win one day races? Or does it only work in GT's?

btw the climb you refer to in Girona has riders names painted with their times on it. Hincapie held the record for a long time. And you known what a natural born climber he was

And Wiggins does live in the area. It's not like Girona is a major city.

Sly are doping and it makes the biggest difference at GTs.

Sorry.

 

[Froome19]

My point is not about Sky but why other teams would not be hot on their heels with this "professional approach", especially those teams with a long history of systematic doping.... OPQS, Liquigas, Radioshack etc etc.

Sky are better because any one or a combination of:

1) They are physiologically superior

2) They are doping better

3) They have a "professional approach" which other teams do not

Do not rule out the fact that they just may be better - with 2 + 3 being equal across the top competitors.

Money is a big part of that.

It is tough to have enough finance to hire a coach for individual riders, analysts etc Garmin are slowly starting to copy Sky in that manner and have hired their own technical advisor kind of guy, but they are still leagues behind Sky.

 

[BroDeal]

On a basis of monitoring every single piece of data? Not letting any rider out of sight barely? Every single training ride monitored?

There is a climb near Girona I believe where all the locals (Hesjedal, Martin etc) go and climb and there is an unofficial ongoing competition to see who can get the best time. They just go along and ride the climb. Hesjedal broke the record totally unprepared one day with some snacks and stuff hanging from his bike and was all over the place after not having warmed up. Then the story goes that Wiggins comes along one day (he does not live in the area) and is escorted by some Sky staff in a Sky car and then warmed up on rollers, has had his bike stripped down and dons his skin suit before riding up the climb and breaking the record. That is what we are talking about here.

No I really do not think that we have seen anything like that at least to this level, in the past.

So the moral of the story is that Wiggins requires Olympic-style preparation to beat a Hesjedal Strava KOM obtained when Hesjedal was not taking things seriously. Looks like a major difference in talent levels.

 

[thehog]

Money is a big part of that.

It is tough to have enough finance to hire a coach for individual riders, analysts etc Garmin are slowly starting to copy Sky in that manner and have hired their own technical advisor kind of guy, but they are still leagues behind Sky.

You didn't answer the question....

 

[Ferminal]

So the moral of the story is that Wiggins requires Olympic-style preparation to beat a Hesjedal Strava KOM obtained when Hesjedal was not taking things seriously. Looks like a major difference in talent levels.

Yet they both rode for Slipstream. Both won a GT this year. What would Hesjedal do if he rode for Sky

Poor JV, two years ago it was his team getting all the publicity for being at the top in terms of legal preparation methods.

 

[BroDeal]

What are they doing Hog?

I have indeed read about most of those teams and their training regimes and to me they have no a speck on Sky's approach.

Yeah, those dumb and lazy Europeans, Americans, Canadians, and Australians just don't know how to train. It took British know-how to show everyone how to do it.

This sounds even more ridiculous than Armstrong inventing high cadence.

 

[Parker]

Gotta be friggin kiddin me. Professional approach? Where were you in the nineties? If there is a nation that takes 'a professional approach' on cycling it would be the Italians.

Yet Italy's number 1 rider doesn't have a coach and does his own training plans. That's cutting edge training is it?

 

[Ferminal]

Money is a big part of that.

It is tough to have enough finance to hire a coach for individual riders, analysts etc Garmin are slowly starting to copy Sky in that manner and have hired their own technical advisor kind of guy, but they are still leagues behind Sky.

Yes, which is why I mentioned the fact that doping programs are quite expensive. It would be a waste to drop 20k+ a year on doping and not throw money at maximising performance in other departments. The world's best stage racers are hardly struggling for loose change.

 

[Froome19]

You speak Flemish? Italian? I dare you to go YouTube LiquiGas training. You'll be surprised. Yoga, meditation in addition to their power analysis of every rider. YouTube QuickStep buildup to the Classics. You think these teams just give up at the Tour?

No to the first question. Luckily these days you do not need to, to have access to such stuff (it comes in those English magazines of yours).

Have you read probably the primary reason why Tom Boonen dominated the classics this year? Because of his bike, they tested it in the velodrome over the winter and they made a few slight adjustments and Boonen (who is very against such testing and generally disregards it) said that it significantly (over a 250km race) increased his output.

That would have been solved immediately at Sky and not just with Boonen the leader but everyone else as well.

If Sky's approach is so good why didn't they win one day races? Or does it only work in GT's?

You may be surprised next year, Sky have increased their focus on the classics tenfold over the winter. (foreshadowing your reaction come Flanders ) As you say the Tenerife guys do get extra attention and of course that helps a lot. The classics riders are being focus on more though. And of course the classics squad was far from a squad which had 5 classics' team leaders in it did it?

btw the climb you refer to in Girona has riders names painted with their times on it. Hincapie held the record for a long time. And you known what a natural born climber he was

So?
That was not my point and you know that.

Hesjedal currently holds the record fyi.

Sly are doping and it makes the biggest difference at GTs.

Sorry.

Sorry, you repeatedly telling me that is not going to change my opinion.

 

[thehog]

So the moral of the story is that Wiggins requires Olympic-style preparation to beat a Hesjedal Strava KOM obtained when Hesjedal was not taking things seriously. Looks like a major difference in talent levels.

Reminds me Rocky IV.

When Drago had all the latest technology and training techniques. Dragon was strapped to electronic equipment which could measure the power of his punches and strength in his legs. Meanwhile Rocky was training by lifting tree trunks over his head and running in the snow.

Rocky prevailed mind you.

All of this fitted into a 3 minute montage in the movie.

 

[sniper]

good posts, Ferminal. Indeed, to somehow disconnect professionalism and doping is naive at best. The two concepts are symbiotic, in all topsports I assume.
How painful it would be to spend all your Sky money on technology and training methods and then get beaten by a bunch of sloppy dopers. No way Brailsford would let that happen. (Or better: he did let it happen, in 2010, and decided it shouldn't happen again)

My point is not about Sky but why other teams would not be hot on their heels with this "professional approach", especially those teams with a long history of systematic doping.... OPQS, Liquigas, Radioshack etc etc.

Sky are better because any one or a combination of:

1) They are physiologically superior

2) They are doping better

3) They have a "professional approach" which other teams do not

Do not rule out the fact that they just may be better - with 2 + 3 being equal across the top competitors.

If we are indeed seeing a level playing field where option (1) holds, we must necessarily credit Brailsford for having an amazing (perhaps unique) eye for talent and team building. What Bruyneel achieved through systematic fullthrottle doping, Brailsford accomplished by spotting the best talents. Hard to believe.

p.s.
Option 2b) Do not rule out that Sky might be protected from higher up, allowing them to dope harder (and thus better) than other teams.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

There is a climb near Girona I believe where all the locals (Hesjedal, Martin etc) go and climb and there is an unofficial ongoing competition to see who can get the best time. They just go along and ride the climb. Hesjedal broke the record totally unprepared one day with some snacks and stuff hanging from his bike and was all over the place after not having warmed up. Then the story goes that Wiggins comes along one day (he does not live in the area) and is escorted by some Sky staff in a Sky car and then warmed up on rollers, has had his bike stripped down and dons his skin suit before riding up the climb and breaking the record. That is what we are talking about here.

Indeed Froome19, the man who was in the autobus untill 2009. couldn't climb, lost weight and suddenly rocked the peloton. Heard this story before, involved a certain cancer survivor from Austin, Texas.

Really, science and cycling? You just linked dear old Brad and the Brad[y] Bunch to Italian preparottore.

Yet Italy's number 1 rider doesn't have a coach and does his own training plans. That's cutting edge training is it?

Who are you talking about?

Maybe I missed the sarcasm?

 

[Ferminal]

Who are you talking about?

Maybe I missed the sarcasm?

Nibali I guess? Pretty smart of him to deny having no help with his preparation.

Better than Nys

 

[The Hitch]

I do not know which marginal gains are the crucial ones, but the fact that Sky take a professional approach to the sport is something which gives them a tremendous boost over any of their rivals..

Sky taking a "professional approach to the sport" gives them a tremendous advantage over their rivals?

What?


So that makes the others, amateurs no? They are losing time to Sky because they dont approach their profession "professionally".

lol this is clearly the market that Fabiani was trying to tap.

If Bailsford said that Wiggins secret to winning the Tour was eating Mcdonalds every day, you would probably believe him and give it to us as gospel.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What are they doing Hog?

I have indeed read about most of those teams and their training regimes and to me they have no a speck on Sky's approach.

And do not get me started on BMC..

"I put riders in wind tunnels too, but I don't have to put out a press release to tell people" - Marc Madiot on Team Sky's media blitz about their scientific approach in 2010.

I remember reading that some Sky riders had been in same hotel as guys from Ag2r at one race and been surprised at some of their technology. Again, this was in 2010.

But it does show that just because you haven't read about other teams' scientific approaches that they lag way behind Sky - just that we know more about Sky's, or rather that we know they have so far been able to hide behind it because they look pro enough that their scientific approach can be believed. They've, for the most part, told us all about their science and that's been enough. After all, they don't want to tell us their secrets, dope-related or not, because they don't want to give away their performance advantage, so it's manifested itself in the way of ridiculous things like "oh, we warm down" as if that was some kind of spectacular advance. We simply don't know what some of the other teams are doing from a sport science point of view. We don't really know all that much about what Sky are doing, other than that they're telling us it's lots and it justifies demanding that we believe in their amazing clean success.