Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Joachim]

I think that is a fair summary

I think the parallel to Armstrong's supposed training methods can be made. That is not to say that it is indicative of an attempt to justify dope-delivered success, it might be, but until there is some meat on the bones to the doping allegations (made purely by anonymous Internet users, I hasten to add) that is a step too far.

The fluff that Armstrong came out with, and perhaps Sky, is not limited to fending off allegations but really is a part of general PR.

Quite apart from doping, Sky want people to believe that they are special and über-professional. If you want to understand why, just remind yourself where they got their name and who pays the bills.

The sport, at this level, only exists to further its commercial sponsors' interests.

 

[thehog]

Reminds me Rocky IV.

When Drago had all the latest technology and training techniques. Dragon was strapped to electronic equipment which could measure the power of his punches and strength in his legs. Meanwhile Rocky was training by lifting tree trunks over his head and running in the snow.

Rocky prevailed mind you.

All of this fitted into a 3 minute montage in the movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUzcDUERLo&sns=em

Ok four minutes but not to dissimilar to a Sky TV documentary.

Although in this sequence Heisjdale appears to be going out with Cath Wiggins.

Old school techniques always prevail in Rocky movies.

 

[martinvickers]

Is a doping regime not a component of a meticulous, professional approach to the sport? Riis didn't do himself to the eyeballs because he was lazy. Or in other words, if one is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on illicit preparation wouldn't you also expect them to ensure that the legitimate aspects of their performance are also best-practice.

You would expect it, but you don't always get it.

Lance was meticulous.

Ully was a party dude and got fat between seasons.

Both doped.

 

[Parker]

Who are you talking about?

Maybe I missed the sarcasm?

Nibali. He said in an interview last month that he's coaching himself now.

 

[Joachim]

Sky do hype themselves up, but putting this aside for a moment it is quite interesting to hear about the appointment of Kerrison, the swimming coach, and his challenging of traditions and dogma when it comes to looking at training. At the very least, it is pretty clear that competitive swimming takes a different view.

Certainly, my experience of competitive cycling, on more than one continent, is that it tends towards the reactionary.

Anyway. If it is hype, hype is not new. CSC were doing it ages ago with their military team-building exercises.

 

[thehog]

Sorry, you repeatedly telling me that is not going to change my opinion.

I realised this a long time ago.

Although I did complement you once for at least willing to entertain scenarios where dope might have been at play.

I now withdraw that complement.

I understand whereby the vision of a clean Sky through marginal gains wins the Tour with ease and then the Olympic titles along with every other race they entered. Its sure as hell a lot nicer than the story Hamilton tells in his book.

Doping is still in cycling. Its use morphs with each era. Becomes more sophisticated but its still at the end of the the day a rider/doctor injecting their arm/buttocks/ankle/hip with sludge.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Quite apart from doping, Sky want people to believe that they are special and über-professional. If you want to understand why, just remind yourself where they got their name and who pays the bills.

The sport, at this level, only exists to further its commercial sponsors' interests.

Too bad you put me on the ignore so you will not read this, but, hell, we agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Nibali. He said in an interview last month that he's coaching himself now.

Yeah, for the month of november, partying on Sicilia, he now is under the wings of the Astana staff, quite a good one after seeing their references. One even wrote articles with no other than dottore Conconi.

Or, he is totally clean, and really training for himself, would make him a true hero. Nibbles never has been a superman.

 

[bianchigirl]

Antoine vayer had carte Blanche at festina to use cutting edge training techniques - you should hear him laughing about the claims of the USPS and sky

 

[JimmyFingers]

Antoine vayer had carte Blanche at festina to use cutting edge training techniques - you should hear him laughing about the claims of the USPS and sky

It haunts my dreams

 

[MatParker117]

Dombrowski on Sky's training methods:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/12/news/dombrowski-on-giro-ditalia-path-with-wiggins_269828

“Talking to the older GC guys that are new to the team, like Dario Cataldo [from Omega Pharma-Quick Step] and David López [Movistar], they seemed really surprised about the training load in volume and structure at this point in the year,” Dombrowski said. “They said almost all the other teams are not working this hard this early. There’s such a focus on details in training, which is perhaps different because the coaches and training plans come from within the team.”

At camp, Sky performance trainer Tim Kerrison went over the next month’s training and directors planned Dombrowski’s race schedule through June. He trains at home for the holidays and joins Boswell at their European base in Nice, France, after celebrating the New Year. He will spend January and part of February back and forth between Nice and Mallorca before his race debut in the Tour of Oman.

“Basically all the races I do up to the Giro – Oman, Tirreno-Adriatico, Critérium International, Giro del Trentino – those are all with the team doing the Giro,” said Dombrowski. “Kind of a core group of guys that they’ll keep together … It’s an ambitious calendar, and it’s going to be pretty challenging.”

 

[thehog]

Dombrowski on Sky's training methods:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/12/news/dombrowski-on-giro-ditalia-path-with-wiggins_269828

As Wiggo stumbles out of the BBC afterparty he said to waiting reporters:

"No other team - hiccup - is working - urgghh - as hard - 'oh god' - a this time of - hiccup - of the night - hiccup - I mean year..."

 

[sniper]

dombrowski trying hard to sell marginal gains.

There’s such a focus on details in training, which is perhaps different because the coaches and training plans come from within the team

....uhu....reeeaally different.

 

[BroDeal]

Dombrowski on Sky's training methods:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/12/news/dombrowski-on-giro-ditalia-path-with-wiggins_269828

Got anything from a rider who has accomplished anything? Lopez and Cataldo are not exactly contenders. How about something from Evans or Menchov or Cancellara or Contador or Boonen or Gilbert or... You know, someone who Sky actually competes against for wins. Find some information that those guys are lazy chumps who don't train hard.

 

[Parrot23]

We simply don't know what some of the other teams are doing from a sport science point of view. We don't really know all that much about what Sky are doing, other than that they're telling us it's lots and it justifies demanding that we believe in their amazing clean success.

+1. That's what I notice. Almost nothing is known how pro teams train (the stuff on Youtube about procyclists is garbage, guys riding bikes down a road, and that's it). There's nothing I've seen beyond two interesting videos of Basso at Liquigas doing a lot of overgeared/low rpm intervals on a climb and stationary bike, followed by very high rpm spinning. A bit like Lance was doing (at least the some of the training advice of Ferrari via his son to him). Other than that, I've seen or read nothing of interest.

Sky's reverse periodization is interesting (high intensity throughout the training year, but modulating the volume drastically, I assume). Seems to lead to lesser off-season losses (re Testa says mitochondrial density benefits far more from intensity than volume, and the result is reduced off-season losses, vis Wiggo's recent camp where he is supposed to have impressed with losing less than expected watts from the season).

Other than that, nothing of interest.... They'd have to be fools to talk other than (laughable) generalities.

There seems much more info. on what triathletes do. Specialized and others have done some good videos, like this and a series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fgGPBtm1Q

LOL, this guy rides 100+ miles with 20 miles of climbing or something like that at altitude in Boulder, then does 10 * 1mile run intervals at 5-minute mile pace. Lance got excluded from triathlons just in time, hah!

Late addition: yes, per Bro, there's nuthin, though Dombrowski does hint at the intensity and structure rather than volume. He implies this a bit of change of emphasis for him. Not going out and riding 6 hours, etc. Not a question of not training "hard" at all (a red herring), but seems to Sky at least to be the balance between intensity and volume, I think, and when.

I can't believe Sky have invented the wheel here, but it is a bit laughable at many other pro teams how every rider basically has his own trainer, doing his own things. Not systematic; everyone training as they wish per the whims of some unknown trainer of the moment. Maybe BMC is different, but this biz of each rider with a different trainer doing who knows what seems ridiculous. Hardly professionalized, yet these are pro riders.

Doesn't mean I don't think Sky might be doping at some sophisticated level. Prob. a combo, but including the above.

 

[thehog]

+1. That's what I notice. Almost nothing is known how pro teams train (the stuff on Youtube about procyclists is garbage, guys riding bikes down a road, and that's it). There's nothing I've seen beyond two interesting videos of Basso at Liquigas doing a lot of overgeared/low rpm intervals on a climb and stationary bike, followed by very high rpm spinning. A bit like Lance was doing (at least the some of the training advice of Ferrari via his son to him). Other than that, I've seen or read nothing of interest.

Sky's reverse periodization is interesting (high intensity throughout the training year, but modulating the volume drastically, I assume). Seems to lead to lesser off-season losses (re Testa says mitochondrial density benefits far more from intensity than volume, and the result is reduced off-season losses, vis Wiggo's recent camp where he is supposed to have impressed with losing less than expected watts from the season).

Other than that, nothing of interest.... They'd have to be fools to talk other than (laughable) generalities.

There seems much more info. on what triathletes do. Specialized and others have done some good videos, like this and a series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fgGPBtm1Q

LOL, this guy rides 100+ miles with 20 miles of climbing or something like that at altitude in Boulder, then does 10 * 1mile run intervals at 5-minute mile pace. Lance got excluded from triathlons just in time, hah!

Late addition: yes, per Bro, there's nuthin, though Dombrowski does hint at the intensity and structure rather than volume. He implies this a bit of change of emphasis for him. Not going out and riding 6 hours, etc. Not a question of not training "hard" at all (a red herring), but seems to Sky at least to be the balance between intensity and volume, I think, and when.

I can't believe Sky have invented the wheel here, but it is a bit laughable at many other pro teams how every rider basically has his own trainer, doing his own things. Not systematic; everyone training as they wish per the whims of some unknown trainer of the moment. Maybe BMC is different, but this biz of each rider with a different trainer doing who knows what seems ridiculous. Hardly professionalized, yet these are pro riders.

Doesn't mean I don't think Sky might be doping at some sophisticated level. Prob. a combo, but including the above.

Did you watch Part 2?

He's pushing race pace - 250w uphill!

That's Rogers in the pre-stage warm-up!

 

[Parrot23]

Yes, watched all a few days ago. Can't remember the watts: only 250 watts uphill! Peanuts. He's not telling the truth, maybe. Apparently Lance wanted to train with him, but he refused. Said he would keep his mouth shut! He's bs'ing.

But I think the guy who won at Kona this year, IronMan, said in Tri magazine I just read at the bookstore a few days ago, that his FTP was 312 watts, or something like that (low 300s). Seemed pretty low to me. Surprised. But he outlasted the others on the bike quite decisively. These guys do insane volumes. I think the volume guys, with the genetics of course, here win. Not sure if it matches cycling. They're basically just TT'ing, not like pro cycle racing, with its changes of pace, infinite numbers of attacks.

This is the guy: http://triathlon.competitor.com/tag/pete-jacobs. If you find the magazine in the bookstore, you'll see how low his cycling FTP is. But he's a kick-*** runner I think, near 2:40 marathon during the full IronMan triathlon (ie. with 100 miles cycling and swim race). That's fast.

I think Lance when he won that Hawaiian 70.3 mile qualifier for Kona toasted the next guy by 6 minutes on the bike.

There is one Specialized Cancellara video showing his SRM, with avg. of 285 watts for 6 1/2 hours at Flanders when he won, incredible, but with avg. HR only 143! Vis HR, it seems canny pros do a lot of coasting in races (teammates!), whenever possible. Cance also impressive, because I think he was very low on the suspicion list of doping (I think level 2 out of max 10, with Menchov and Barredo etc. as 10 and Lance and Wiggo somewhere around 4 or 5, I think.)

 

[dolophonic]

I think that is a fair summary

If you want to understand why, just remind yourself where they got their name and who pays the bills.

The sport, at this level, only exists to further its commercial sponsors' interests.

Yes their Name Sponsors are n court for breaking the law and cheating.. no?

 

[dolophonic]

Joe D has a strava i think..
a mate of mine was telling me he was doing lots of volume in Nov and Dec..

 

[thehog]

Joe D has a strava i think..
a mate of mine was telling me he was doing lots of volume in Nov and Dec..

Tabloid headline:

"Shock horror Pro Cyclist does volume training in November - lock up your daughters!"

 

[dolophonic]

Yes Hoggins my point exactly.

 

[thehog]

Yes Hoggins my point exactly.

Noted......

 

[Ferminal]

Shouldn't it be low volumes in November according to reverse periodisation?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

There are a few things that I am curious about. Given

* If Sky are doping then the numbers they are pulling up the climbs are less than in previous years but still suspicious to some.

* It is also the general feeling that cycling is as dirty as it ever was in the sense that the same percentage are doping albeit in smaller amounts.

* Recently new undetectable drugs are available such as EPO-Z and were apparently on 'full display' at the Olympics.

So if Sky were not going full blast and undetectable drugs are pretty much available to cyclists how come no one was able to match them? It's easy to beat the bio-passport, right?

In recent years these many teams could easily match those numbers. Did everyone except Sky agree to stop using them? Well, that seems unlikely and breaks the opinion that everyone is doping.

Perhaps Sky has a wonder-drug. Possible but from what people have been saying there are plenty of things out there for others to use and are undetectable.

Suggestions?

 

[Ferminal]

Already addressed in #10984.

That their rivals are doping to a lesser extent than them is only one possible explanation.

Also I don't think the hypothetical level playing field is ever completely level. There are always shocks to the doping system - a UCI warning, potential new tests, investigations, change of team. These do not apply equally across everyone. e.g. Scarponi lost his Ferrari but conversely a Ryurito Hesjeduez may have felt like they had room to step things up.

 

[thehog]

There are a few things that I am curious about. Given

* If Sky are doping then the numbers they are pulling up the climbs are less than in previous years but still suspicious to some.

* It is also the general feeling that cycling is as dirty as it ever was in the sense that the same percentage are doping albeit in smaller amounts.

* Recently new undetectable drugs are available such as EPO-Z and were apparently on 'full display' at the Olympics.

So if Sky were not going full blast and undetectable drugs are pretty much available to cyclists how come no one was able to match them? It's easy to beat the bio-passport, right?

In recent years these many teams could easily match those numbers. Did everyone except Sky agree to stop using them? Well, that seems unlikely and breaks the opinion that everyone is doping.

Perhaps Sky has a wonder-drug. Possible but from what people have been saying there are plenty of things out there for others to use and are undetectable.

Suggestions?

Bio-passport is not an in-competition metric. It's a long score.

If you can amp inside competition you have a distinct advantage over your rivals.

I'll think you'll find advanced warnings has always and still remains the biggest advantage at the Tour than any other method of cheating.

Two Sky reps on the UCI management committee sure beats the Lance styled donations.

An Olympiic Games in your home country with a starring role from Cav, Froome and Wiggins will insure there are no embarrassments.

No one and I mean no one will argue that the IOC wouldn't let this occur in cahoots with the UCI.

But for the last time. Bio passport is a not an in-competion test.

Lance smashed it at Flanders in 2010 and dropped a bag the night before and didn't trouble the Bio committee.

Sky with all their personal and TK crunching the numbers will ensure that the Bio Passport committee can spend their time chasing mid pack cyclists from Spain and Slovenia.