Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

Wiggins himself has said that he was less confident going into the 2011 tour compared to the 2012 tour. We don't know how he would have done had he not crashed but I agree we cannot just assume 2012 form.

In 2012, he knew he would be 2 minutes faster in the ITTs. Its easy to be confident then

 

[Libertine Seguros]

+1. I don't think we've yet seen him bring back a really big attack alone. I think that fact alone might say a lot to both sides of the debate.

But he hasn't had to, because the team has been so strong. That's why this is the Sky thread, not the Wiggins thread. We haven't seen Wiggins even remotely isolated since Sky finally gave up on trying to make Froome wait for him on Anglirú.

 

[Parrot23]

But he hasn't had to, because the team has been so strong. That's why this is the Sky thread, not the Wiggins thread. We haven't seen Wiggins even remotely isolated since Sky finally gave up on trying to make Froome wait for him on Anglirú.

Yes, of course, that's why I said "alone". But it also means the hysteria can come down a notch or two, too. It's a very different proposition whether he can bring back a huge attack alone, let alone multi-col ones.

Better sense of perspective, remembering how HE performed at Garmin in the Tour, without Sky. Same style. Incremental.

 

[mastersracer]

Actually, many claims have been made that Sky is clean.

Anyhow, did you seriously compare Hesjedal's Giro win to Froome's rise in the coming out of nowhere stakes? I underrated Hesjedal because he has quietly accumulated his palmarès, but to compare his ascent to Froome's meteoric rise is insulting to the Canadian in extremis.

Hesjedal's been accumulating top 10s in stage races for a few years now, from 4th in Catalunya back in 2006 to 8th in Tirreno 2008, won a mountain stage of the Vuelta in 2009, and while 2010 was a surprising breakout, he prepared for that unexpected 7th in the Tour by coming 6th at Catalunya and 5th at California, and was picking up top 10s in hilly Classics and other one-day races all year. 2011 might have been disappointing but he still managed top 10s in País Vasco and California. While you may be suspicious of his late-career development (almost all of his best results have come from 29 onwards, like Wiggins), this Giro win was the culmination of three and a half years of building results.

Froome was not. Ryder Hesjedal wasn't about to lose his contract when he turned into Ryder the GT winner, he was a guy with several years of bankable results. Froome was a guy who had shown a bit of promise three years previous, but for a variety of reasons had neither capitalised on it nor shown progress, and in fact his CQ scores and race results were going in the opposite direction, until suddenly, abracadabra, he's losing GTs only because of a) bonus seconds, and b) his team not allowing him to ride his own race.

Santiago Pérez finished 4th in Romandie '02, 6th in the Setmana Catalana '03, 7th in Aragón '04 and 7th in a Tour de Suisse mountain stage as preparation for his breakout at the '04 Vuelta. Bernhard Kohl was 7th in the Österreich-Rundfahrt '05, 5th in '06, 3rd in the '06 Dauphiné and 6th in the '08 Bayern-Rundfahrt before he 'came out of nowhere' in the 2008 Tour as if a rider who's been on the podium at the Dauphiné can be considered a scrub the way Froome was prior to the 2011 Vuelta. Ezequiel Mosquera finished 7th in the Volta a Portugal back in '04, moved to Kaiku for '05 where he was top 10 of the Ruta del Sol, Vuelta a Murcía, Volta a Catalunya and Vuelta a Burgos, and won a stage of the Vuelta a la Rioja. He followed that up in '06 with another top 10 at Burgos and one in the Giro del Trentino before his breakout at the 2007 Vuelta.

Those are three of the biggest 'out of nowhere' transformations of the last ten years, and they all had a better palmarès than Chris Froome before their breakout tour, and they all ended the same way. Ryder Hesjedal doesn't belong on that list.

If I apply the logic of this thread, Ryder's early pro successes would be the result of doping - he was riding with Discovery and Phonak after all. 2010 seems to have been a big jump - not only does he go from 49th to 6th at the Tour, but he's winning combative awards doing it. And of course there is the suspicious blood values before the 2012 Giro - expert speculation on whether the pre-Giro values are indicative of doping. JV says it's testing error. Then of course he beats a bunch of known dopers at the Giro, which was far harder than the Tour. 11,500 posts on Wiggins and Froome - how many on Ryder's Giro blood values - 57.

 

[will10]

There's been a lot more than 57 posts about Ryder on here I can assure you. Best check out the JV threads. He's not above suspicion. Nor does he make Sky's performance at the Tour look any better or worse.

 

[D-Queued]

If I apply the logic of this thread, Ryder's early pro successes would be the result of doping - he was riding with Discovery and Phonak after all. 2010 seems to have been a big jump - not only does he go from 49th to 6th at the Tour, but he's winning combative awards doing it. And of course there is the suspicious blood values before the 2012 Giro - expert speculation on whether the pre-Giro values are indicative of doping. JV says it's testing error. Then of course he beats a bunch of known dopers at the Giro, which was far harder than the Tour. 11,500 posts on Wiggins and Froome - how many on Ryder's Giro blood values - 57.

As will10 notes, he hasn't had a free pass. Then again, given his pedigree, he has received only modest attention.

Being Canadian and non-flamboyant removes the additional stimulus?

Dave.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, of course, that's why I said "alone". But it also means the hysteria can come down a notch or two, too. It's a very different proposition whether he can bring back a huge attack alone, let alone multi-col ones.

Better sense of perspective, remembering how HE performed at Garmin in the Tour, without Sky. Same style. Incremental.

You don't think that a team having 3, 4 or even 5 guys who can control a mountain stage start to finish so that their leader never has to bring back any attack shouldn't really be considered something that should reduce the hysteria? It's very rare that a rider makes a multi-col attack, let alone has to bring one back alone. Why? Super-strength teams like Sky that can control mountain stages start to finish.

At least CSC had to stick guys in the break to ensure they had enough men for their train of pain at the final climb of the day, not just send their men to the front as soon as the break forms, and then tap out a rhythm nobody can attack all day every day.

So while you're right, we haven't seen Wiggins ever have to really respond to major attacks, that might ratchet down the suspicion of him personally, but the reason for it is that we have to ratchet up the suspicion of the team. After all, this isn't the Wiggins thread, it's the Sky thread, and Wiggins is but one cog in that suspicious machine.

 

[blackcat]

If I apply the logic of this thread, Ryder's early pro successes would be the result of doping - he was riding with Discovery and Phonak after all. 2010 seems to have been a big jump - not only does he go from 49th to 6th at the Tour, but he's winning combative awards doing it. And of course there is the suspicious blood values before the 2012 Giro - expert speculation on whether the pre-Giro values are indicative of doping. JV says it's testing error. Then of course he beats a bunch of known dopers at the Giro, which was far harder than the Tour. 11,500 posts on Wiggins and Froome - how many on Ryder's Giro blood values - 57.

I'll quote from the inimitable BigBoat tome of reference. "hehehe".

Its an oldie but a goodie. Prove that its NOT a testing error. Prove the negative.

could also be, in this case, a reference tomb with a b.

 

[blackcat]

You don't think that a team having 3, 4 or even 5 guys who can control a mountain stage start to finish so that their leader never has to bring back any attack shouldn't really be considered something that should reduce the hysteria? It's very rare that a rider makes a multi-col attack, let alone has to bring one back alone. Why? Super-strength teams like Sky that can control mountain stages start to finish.

At least CSC had to stick guys in the break to ensure they had enough men for their train of pain at the final climb of the day, not just send their men to the front as soon as the break forms, and then tap out a rhythm nobody can attack all day every day.

So while you're right, we haven't seen Wiggins ever have to really respond to major attacks, that might ratchet down the suspicion of him personally, but the reason for it is that we have to ratchet up the suspicion of the team. After all, this isn't the Wiggins thread, it's the Sky thread, and Wiggins is but one cog in that suspicious machine.

to be far tho. The peloton was perhaps better compared to 99. When bar Armstrong, everyone came is sub-par in their doping regimen. Their thresholds were lower then.

I think that 2012, everyone came in a little less hot.

And Andy Schleck almost surrendered at the TdF route unveiling in November or December in 2011. He did not put his tyre to the metal in the 2012 race because of the chrono miles.

 

[DirtyWorks]

.. We've yet to see him respond to a Pantani-style multi-col attack, and I don't believe that even 2012 Wiggins would be able to bring back an attack like that solo.

It has come to my attention that the EPO/oxygen vector performances are viewed as credible. As such, they have become a reference point where none actually exists.

A gentle reminder to anyone actually trying to consider the evidence with some rationality that a "Pantani-style multi-col attack" is only possible on blood-too-thick-and-the-athlete-might-die-sleeping oxygen vector doping.

There is no reference that can be made or even inferred to a generation of elite cyclists. You can't do it. EPO and the follow-on variations have broken the old model.

I agree with Blackcat. In 2012, stage racers came in a little less glowing than prior years. They didn't know that Sky had a free-er pass to dope. Because the maillot jaune leading the sprint train out happens at every TdF even prior to EPO. Oh, wait....

 

[Mellow Velo]

Given you have just posted this,

I agree with Blackcat. In 2012, stage racers came in a little less glowing than prior years. They didn't know that Sky had a free-er pass to dope. Because the maillot jaune leading the sprint train out happens at every TdF even prior to EPO. Oh, wait....

care to try for a re-read?

The other premise here being that Sky are UCI protected and the others are not.
Hence, they are micro-micro dosing to avoid detection.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Because the maillot jaune leading the sprint train out happens at every TdF even prior to EPO. Oh, wait....

I don't understand the point you're trying to highlight. You've presented one single, unprecedented event. Unprecedented events have happened before and after EPO. Before EPO, a rider once won the Tour, Giro, MSR, LBL and GdL in a single season. After EPO, a rider once won the Tour 7 times straight.

 

[blackcat]

Given you have just posted this,



care to try for a re-read?

I was just replying to Libertine Seguros tho, who is perhaps, with Race Radio, THE knowledgable poster of the board. So I thought his effort was not fully rationalised in this instance. but not for me to correct LS.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I was just replying to Libertine Seguros tho, who is perhaps, with Race Radio, THE knowledgable poster of the board. So I thought his effort was not fully rationalised in this instance. but not for me to correct LS.

No, no, you're OK.
A bit of confusion all round.

 

[blackcat]

As will10 notes, he hasn't had a free pass. Then again, given his pedigree, he has received only modest attention.

Being Canadian and non-flamboyant removes the additional stimulus?

Dave.

I am sure alot would assume he is of southoftheborder

 

[Parrot23]

After all, this isn't the Wiggins thread, it's the Sky thread, and Wiggins is but one cog in that suspicious machine.

Wiggins had it at Garmin in the Tour; he has it today. He's the big cog in the wheel there, no doubt about it. Sky is not the cause of his success, but a big facilitating factor to what is already there. We're largely interested in Sky because of him.

It's also interesting seeing how strong other teams are as soon as their lead cyclist grabs the jersey in a GT, eg. Saxo and Astana, etc., the list goes on. Everyone in every GT remarks on this. They all suddenly appear, as if out of nowhere, and stay there.

It's quite possible the others have taken it down a notch and become less dirty. That could also be a big reason behind "Sky's success" relatively too. (The Euro moves up on its own AND/OR because the USD falls.) It takes two to tango: it's not just a function of Sky.

Look at Basso. Not done much at all since coming clean. This guy's natural ability is not stratospheric or dominant in the peloton. Lots of others with his natural abilities too, we discover, when Basso cleans up his act. Also very odd how all of BMC's big riders suddenly ALL got mysterious viruses and sicknesses last year (Hushvod, Gilbert, Evans), which could be BMC's alibi for taking it down a notch or two after warnings.

All of this is relevant to "Sky's" relative performance, which is not just a one-dimensional function of itself.

 

[blackcat]

un de ni able
plaws a bility

invert the strategy

 

[Netserk]

Wiggins had it at Garmin in the Tour; he has it today. He's the big cog in the wheel there, no doubt about it. Sky is not the cause of his success, but a big facilitating factor to what is already there. We're largely interested in Sky because of him.

It's also interesting seeing how strong other teams are as soon as their lead cyclist grabs the jersey in a GT, eg. Saxo and Astana, etc., the list goes on. Everyone in every GT remarks on this. They all suddenly appear, as if out of nowhere, and stay there.

It's quite possible the others have taken it down a notch and become less dirty. That could also be a big reason behind "Sky's success" relatively too. (The Euro moves up on its own AND/OR because the USD falls.) It takes two to tango: it's not just a function of Sky.

Look at Basso. Not done much at all since coming clean. This guy's natural ability is not stratospheric or dominant in the peloton. Lots of others with his natural abilities too, we discover, when Basso cleans up his act. Also very odd how all of BMC's big riders suddenly ALL got mysterious viruses and sicknesses last year (Hushvod, Gilbert, Evans), which could be BMC's alibi for taking it down a notch or two after warnings.

All of this is relevant to "Sky's" relative performance, which is not just a one-dimensional function of itself.

Where were you in May '10 ??

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Because the maillot jaune leading the sprint train out happens at every TdF even prior to EPO. Oh, wait....

If you credit Cippo and Saeco as being the first team to really use the sprint train then that is hardly surprising, is it?

 

[Parrot23]

Where were you in May '10 ??

Like Basso, I was "tranquillo, tranquillo". He's been saying this a hell of a lot. Wonder why.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Wiggins had it at Garmin in the Tour; he has it today. He's the big cog in the wheel there, no doubt about it. Sky is not the cause of his success, but a big facilitating factor to what is already there. We're largely interested in Sky because of him.

It's also interesting seeing how strong other teams are as soon as their lead cyclist grabs the jersey in a GT, eg. Saxo and Astana, etc., the list goes on. Everyone in every GT remarks on this. They all suddenly appear, as if out of nowhere, and stay there.

It's quite possible the others have taken it down a notch and become less dirty. That could also be a big reason behind "Sky's success" relatively too. (The Euro moves up on its own AND/OR because the USD falls.) It takes two to tango: it's not just a function of Sky.

Look at Basso. Not done much at all since coming clean. This guy's natural ability is not stratospheric or dominant in the peloton. Lots of others with his natural abilities too, we discover, when Basso cleans up his act. Also very odd how all of BMC's big riders suddenly ALL got mysterious viruses and sicknesses last year (Hushvod, Gilbert, Evans), which could be BMC's alibi for taking it down a notch or two after warnings.

All of this is relevant to "Sky's" relative performance, which is not just a one-dimensional function of itself.

But how is this in any way a reason not to be suspicious of Sky's USPS/Banesto impersonation? Sure, you can point at mitigating factors, but there were mitigating factors that could have meant Ezequiel Mosquera was clean. I know. I was pointing them out.

Wiggins hasn't had to respond to a big multi-col attack because his team was too strong for him to need to. A cleaner Tour might mean that those attacks are easier to pull back, but it doesn't make the team look any less dominant, and still doesn't change that Wiggins himself didn't pull back any attack, so we still can't make any judgment on that.

Yes, a lot of people underperformed or were absent at the Tour. But I still saw Mick Rogers - that's 'Ferrari' Mick 'Freiburg' Rogers - decimating the bunch and were told about him watching guys like Cadel Evans and Vincenzo Nibali attack and be able to cheerfully tell his leaders that they wouldn't get away based on the tempo he was grinding out. As Jimmyfingers said, and I'm fond of pointing out because it's very true and it coming from one of Sky's bigger defenders on the board helps highlight that it's not just a conspiracy theorist's fantasy, Sky did a really, really poor job of showing that they were clean at the Tour. Their racing style, behaviour and the way they've conducted themselves over the various affairs regarding riders with suspect histories, couldn't have drawn more suspicion to themselves if they tried. Not without providing first hand, direct evidence anyway.

I'm not one to believe that a picture of Wiggins with a plaster on the inside of his arm is evidence of doping, nor do I believe that riders are dropping cryptic hints in interviews for eagle-eyed fans to decipher - but I do believe that watching known dopers and riders who've undergone comically exaggerated transformations that would leave Santi Pérez shaking his head in amazement demolish the Tour, then even if the Tour has a weak field and a biased parcours, that still is enough reason to raise an eyebrow, and that their leader didn't chase a multi-col attack down on his own is not enough to mollify those suspicions.

 

[Ferminal]

If I apply the logic of this thread, Ryder's early pro successes would be the result of doping - he was riding with Discovery and Phonak after all. 2010 seems to have been a big jump - not only does he go from 49th to 6th at the Tour, but he's winning combative awards doing it. And of course there is the suspicious blood values before the 2012 Giro - expert speculation on whether the pre-Giro values are indicative of doping. JV says it's testing error. Then of course he beats a bunch of known dopers at the Giro, which was far harder than the Tour. 11,500 posts on Wiggins and Froome - how many on Ryder's Giro blood values - 57.

Is that the same testing error a Garmin rider had in 2009?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is that the same testing error a Garmin rider had in 2009?

Who manages Garmin, for $100?

 

[Cycle Chic]

Spot On !!

But how is this in any way a reason not to be suspicious of Sky's USPS/Banesto impersonation? Sure, you can point at mitigating factors, but there were mitigating factors that could have meant Ezequiel Mosquera was clean. I know. I was pointing them out.

Wiggins hasn't had to respond to a big multi-col attack because his team was too strong for him to need to. A cleaner Tour might mean that those attacks are easier to pull back, but it doesn't make the team look any less dominant, and still doesn't change that Wiggins himself didn't pull back any attack, so we still can't make any judgment on that.

Yes, a lot of people underperformed or were absent at the Tour. But I still saw Mick Rogers - that's 'Ferrari' Mick 'Freiburg' Rogers - decimating the bunch and were told about him watching guys like Cadel Evans and Vincenzo Nibali attack and be able to cheerfully tell his leaders that they wouldn't get away based on the tempo he was grinding out. As Jimmyfingers said, and I'm fond of pointing out because it's very true and it coming from one of Sky's bigger defenders on the board helps highlight that it's not just a conspiracy theorist's fantasy, Sky did a really, really poor job of showing that they were clean at the Tour. Their racing style, behaviour and the way they've conducted themselves over the various affairs regarding riders with suspect histories, couldn't have drawn more suspicion to themselves if they tried. Not without providing first hand, direct evidence anyway.

I'm not one to believe that a picture of Wiggins with a plaster on the inside of his arm is evidence of doping, nor do I believe that riders are dropping cryptic hints in interviews for eagle-eyed fans to decipher - but I do believe that watching known dopers and riders who've undergone comically exaggerated transformations that would leave Santi Pérez shaking his head in amazement demolish the Tour, then even if the Tour has a weak field and a biased parcours, that still is enough reason to raise an eyebrow, and that their leader didn't chase a multi-col attack down on his own is not enough to mollify those suspicions.

I think i,m falling in love with Libertine Seguros

 

[Parrot23]

But how is this in any way a reason not to be suspicious of Sky's USPS/Banesto impersonation? Sure, you can point at mitigating factors, but there were mitigating factors that could have meant Ezequiel Mosquera was clean. I know. I was pointing them out.

Wiggins hasn't had to respond to a big multi-col attack because his team was too strong for him to need to. A cleaner Tour might mean that those attacks are easier to pull back, but it doesn't make the team look any less dominant, and still doesn't change that Wiggins himself didn't pull back any attack, so we still can't make any judgment on that.

Yes, a lot of people underperformed or were absent at the Tour. But I still saw Mick Rogers - that's 'Ferrari' Mick 'Freiburg' Rogers - decimating the bunch and were told about him watching guys like Cadel Evans and Vincenzo Nibali attack and be able to cheerfully tell his leaders that they wouldn't get away based on the tempo he was grinding out. As Jimmyfingers said, and I'm fond of pointing out because it's very true and it coming from one of Sky's bigger defenders on the board helps highlight that it's not just a conspiracy theorist's fantasy, Sky did a really, really poor job of showing that they were clean at the Tour. Their racing style, behaviour and the way they've conducted themselves over the various affairs regarding riders with suspect histories, couldn't have drawn more suspicion to themselves if they tried. Not without providing first hand, direct evidence anyway.

I'm not one to believe that a picture of Wiggins with a plaster on the inside of his arm is evidence of doping, nor do I believe that riders are dropping cryptic hints in interviews for eagle-eyed fans to decipher - but I do believe that watching known dopers and riders who've undergone comically exaggerated transformations that would leave Santi Pérez shaking his head in amazement demolish the Tour, then even if the Tour has a weak field and a biased parcours, that still is enough reason to raise an eyebrow, and that their leader didn't chase a multi-col attack down on his own is not enough to mollify those suspicions.

Who is saying Sky is clean? But I think some protest too much without recognizing that performances are relative, living too much in a one-dimensional world of ethnic and national-based biases and hyperbole as foundational factors in one's views.

My interest is in Wiggo first, Sky second. Wiggo made Sky. Wiggo's performance's are in line with his performances at Garmin in the Tour. Incremental. Period.

I also wonder about the comical reductions in performances of riders like Basso and Haussler and the more even playing field that results in "better" performances by other riders. It's pretty clear by now that Wiggo is a more gifted talented rider, genetically speaking, than Basso.

The obsession with Rogers is faintly amusing in the clinic. Quelle horreur, a rider with a dirty background. Wow, my cycling virginity has been affronted and I'm gonna complain for years, like a broken record.