Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr. Maserati]

Rather crass evasion of the question. Let me rephrase the question. When did you first become aware that Leinders was 'nefarious'?

Isn't the correct answer to this question - 'Before David Braisford'.
What do I win?

 

[Joachim]

snip

Well that is a coherent argument and what you say is entirely plausible. Problem is lots of things are plausible, especially when trying to make sense of the parallax view that exists/existed within cycling.

With regards to the Worlds 'incident' I have a degree of sympathy for the reluctance of riders and staff to engage in press hijacks about doping. The media is about sensationalism, with a few notable exceptions. Doping sells. Imagine how ****ed off you'd get if you were constantly asked about doping and you weren't a doper?

See, it works both ways. Rider reactions can be understood from both perspectives. I prefer to maintain an open mind, I don't think there is enough by way of evidence to hold the concrete views that some here stick to so dogmatically. However, If I find evidence that I find compelling I'll be the first to post it on here. As I've said on a number of occasions, if Sky are doping, I hope they get caught.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Contractors aren't as thoroughly background checked as full time employees, Leinders was interviewed by Sky's medical director Steve Peters prior to being to being taken on though.

Seems a bit slapdash doesn't it given the whole 'attention to detail' rhetoric of Sky.

 

[Joachim]

'Rhetoric'...you might be on to something there

 

[Tinman]

I personally did not know Leinders was dodgy until he was already firmly entrenched at Sky. However, there did exist Dutch court documents confirming his connection to, knowledge of, and participation in, doping activities at Rabobank. I did not know about these. It's also highly possible that whoever interviewed him at Sky, Brailsford or whoever did not know about these either.

With as much time as Brailsford has had at the high performance end of cycling, and his close relationship with Sutton and Yates, it is not possible for him not to have known of Leinders' dodgy drug program involvement. it was the key reason for his hiring. Unfortunately the timing and extent of Sky's success is now becoming "Monty's bridge too far" in the farce pro cycling has become.

Just a matter of time.

 

[thehog]

I have to put my hand up and say as more information starts to emerge, obviously unofficial and at the 'he said she said' stage, about Leinders role at Rabobank you have to say questions need to be answered, as Kimmage has said about. I tweeted Daniel Freibe about, who usually replies but got a stoney silence. I find Wiggins reaction to the LA affair puzzling, and the way he is dealing with Kimmage. I can see how people view it as evasive and suspicious.

As patron he needs to accept the responsibility it brings, by not doing so and giving these lazy comments, and the way he counter-attacks Kimmage, he opens himself up to more accusations.

It's clear something was rotten in Denmark oops the Netherlands involving Leinders and the Rabobank team, it may be Brailsford was naive or had the wool pulled over his eyes by Leinders but they should have done better background checks. This is why employers ask for references. You need a good doctor, ask his previous employers about him, simple. It's how Sky pretend the whistle was blown and had him shipped out the back door.

A massive, massive own goal for me. Sky are hoisting themselves by their own petard.

You can argue the toss if you like, like how nothing is confirmed with Leinders, nothing had stuck so far, but reading about riders talking about him adminstering EPO is enough for me, they have no reason to make it up. Leinders is as dirty as they come, and he worked for Sky.

You're a fool if you deny that. And I know I have in the past, because I did not know the extent he was involved in Rabobank's doping (and lets face it, no-one really did, just knew he was implicated. He's even escaped a mention on Dopeology).

Until I know more about Leinder's role at the team I will find it hard to follow them with any conviction.

So OPQS It is then. Oops

Jimmy we've had our differences but I respect your post. It's a fair, honest and balanced view.

I would agree; the more and more details that continue to emerge it doesn't look great.

It's not just Leinders. It's the overall attitude as you state to Lance, Kimmage and the dismissals (Rogers, Yates etc.).

If this was 2002 no one would care. But cycling has just come out of the biggest fraudulant moment in the historyof the sport. A lot people are saying with regards to Sky "nothing to see here".

We should be able to at least ask questions...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Contractors aren't as thoroughly background checked as full time employees, Leinders was interviewed by Sky's medical director Steve Peters prior to being to being taken on though.

This really is a very lame excuse, and you know it.

Nice for the SKy fanboys Leinders is getting all the attention he deserves. The master of EPO/blooddoping of the Low Countries has given the Anglo's a true clean cycling hero. At last he won the Tour our friend, couldn't do it with Denis but dear old Brad was the perfect TT'er he could juice up with just hard work.

Little note for the fanboys, note the connection Ferrari/Menchov/Leinders. Maybe hoggie on this board has some good points, sometimes Hog, do not overdo it

 

[thehog]

Contractors aren't as thoroughly background checked as full time employees, Leinders was interviewed by Sky's medical director Steve Peters prior to being to being taken on though.

So it's Peters fault?

or do you not background check them because you don't want to know?

You do release that the cyclists themselves are "contractors" and not FTEs.

I assume you don't background check them either... ie Rogers.

 

[thehog]

This really is a very lame excuse, and you know it.

Nice for the SKy fanboys Leinders is getting all the attention he deserves. The master of EPO/blooddoping of the Low Countries has given the Anglo's a true clean cycling hero. At last he won the Tour our friend, couldn't do it with Denis but dear old Brad was the perfect TT'er he could juice up with just hard work.

Little note for the fanboys, note the connection Ferrari/Menchov/Leinders. Maybe hoggie on this board has some good points, sometimes Hog, do not overdo it

The Ferrari connection I would hold close to my chest until the right moment.

 

[Joachim]

But you haven't. You've openly declared that Wiggins employs Ferrari, got told off by a mod for making claims you couldn't substantiate, and ran off for a bit

 

[Tinman]

Good on ya Jimmy. You're not the first to get there, sadly we all have gone or still are going through this slow process of getting to the truth. And much is to do with our individual inherent (good) need to believe and trust. And that is ultimately what is so rotten here, ie the current ego driven culture where any means justify the end result. Eg. read Lance and recent Fabiani Oprah circus.

 

[thehog]

Good on ya Jimmy. You're not the first to get there, sadly we all have gone or still are going through this slow process of getting to the truth. And much is to do with our individual inherent (good) need to believe and trust. And that is ultimately what is so rotten here, ie the current ego driven culture where any means justify the end result. Eg. read Lance and recent Fabiani Oprah circus.

What I find most disturbing in all of this is the Sky fans want to shut down any discussion on such topics. Not just this forum but Wiggins/Sky etc.

Can't understand after the whole Lance affair that cyclists today just don't want to talk. Can't understand that.

 

[Joachim]

Keep talking, just stop claiming to know things you clearly cannot know. After all, Susan gave you a smacked botty for it

 

[Tinman]

So it's Peters fault?

Brailsford is a master at staying at arms length. He's done it with all the recent departures. He's the Don that no-one has been able to nail. So far.

I'm interested to hear more about Fran's role and involvement, and the connection/ambition of husband David and UCI. It's one putrid cesspit...

 

[MartinGT]

What I find most disturbing in all of this is the Sky fans want to shut down any discussion on such topics. Not just this forum but Wiggins/Sky etc.

Can't understand after the whole Lance affair that cyclists today just don't want to talk. Can't understand that.

Thats what I cannot understand too.

When I mentioned Leinders to a friends Facebook Status the other day his mate piped up, after some exchanges on why I though Sky were dodgy his retort was "You're just one of them trolls"

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Can't understand that.

I do get the impression there is a lot you don't understand.

So who has asked for the discussion to be shut down?

 

[xcleigh]

I have to put my hand up and say as more information starts to emerge, obviously unofficial and at the 'he said she said' stage, about Leinders role at Rabobank you have to say questions need to be answered, as Kimmage has said about. I tweeted Daniel Freibe about, who usually replies but got a stoney silence. I find Wiggins reaction to the LA affair puzzling, and the way he is dealing with Kimmage. I can see how people view it as evasive and suspicious.

As patron he needs to accept the responsibility it brings, by not doing so and giving these lazy comments, and the way he counter-attacks Kimmage, he opens himself up to more accusations.

It's clear something was rotten in Denmark oops the Netherlands involving Leinders and the Rabobank team, it may be Brailsford was naive or had the wool pulled over his eyes by Leinders but they should have done better background checks. This is why employers ask for references. You need a good doctor, ask his previous employers about him, simple. It's how Sky pretend the whistle was blown and had him shipped out the back door.

A massive, massive own goal for me. Sky are hoisting themselves by their own petard.

You can argue the toss if you like, like how nothing is confirmed with Leinders, nothing had stuck so far, but reading about riders talking about him adminstering EPO is enough for me, they have no reason to make it up. Leinders is as dirty as they come, and he worked for Sky.

You're a fool if you deny that. And I know I have in the past, because I did not know the extent he was involved in Rabobank's doping (and lets face it, no-one really did, just knew he was implicated. He's even escaped a mention on Dopeology).

Until I know more about Leinder's role at the team I will find it hard to follow them with any conviction.

So OPQS It is then. Oops

Thoroughly agree with this. I'm not giving up on Team Sky. Yet. But oh I do hope they come out with some very good explanations as they've certainly got plenty of explaining to do. Will see how it goes and roll on 2013 season.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Which part are lies? This has all been presented under oath and in court.

Sky's Doctor from 2012 injected young men with EPO.

Fact.

a pusher of drugs on young riders

but please care to show me some evidence, although not even anonymous rabo sources have said that

 

[Joachim]

Pedro, Don't expect a response, the hog's modus operandi is the vague insinuation and subsequent disappearance when asked for specifics.

How he thinks that is useful I just can't understand. Can't understand it.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

The story Dekker describes is not far from Lance and USPS.

I'm sure Dekker would have lost his job if he didn't dope.

The man who was part of the pressure to dope was Lienders.

Dekker was 21 years old. Sky didn't hire Dekker they hired the Doctor who forced drugs upon him.

Defending Leinders is like defending Lance. Same pressure tactics, same drugs.

lol, you and your silly assumptions again. tell me have you ever visited planet earth?

 

[Tinman]

What I find most disturbing in all of this is the Sky fans want to shut down any discussion on such topics. Not just this forum but Wiggins/Sky etc.

Can't understand after the whole Lance affair that cyclists today just don't want to talk. Can't understand that.

It's human nature to want to believe. And some take a more vocal position than others. They are great when they come around, if they hang around. So good on Jimmy for not just disappearing. The only ones that don't eventually work it out are the shills. They just disappear when the fight is lost. As per Lance.

 

[thehog]

Brailsford is a master at staying at arms length. He's done it with all the recent departures. He's the Don that no-one has been able to nail. So far.

I'm interested to hear more about Fran's role and involvement, and the connection/ambition of husband David and UCI. It's one putrid cesspit...

And the Sky members on the UCI board.

Cycling is still a small sport in the sense that's its run by the same people with the same connections. To get a ticket you have to work with the McQuaids.

David Millar has an obvious conflict of interest and shouldn't be stating one teams cleanliness over another. Especially that he sits on the WADA board. He needs to act impartially.

 

[Caruut]

It was, but I gave up after trying to unravel the awkward syntax.

Still, at least you are managing to be polite this time. If you can maintain that, Ill engage in discussion with you. Your revolting behaviour yesterday didn't help anybody, least of all yourself. Man up, and apologise whilst you are here.

Would you like some help, then? I'll rephrase it for you.

First we had a question, which I suppose you could answer:
Why does it matter when he first became aware?

Then I justify exactly why I think the question is relevant:
When Hog learned about Leinders does not change what Leinders did in the past. It also does not change the disparity between those past actions and the public policy of Sky. As such, it does not change how strange an appointment Leinders is for an a team who describe themselves as both clean and meticulous.

I then go on to suggest that you are accusing Hog of only learning of someone when they were at their most notable:
July 2012 arguably represents the peak of Leinders' professional career: a team he was involved with won the Tour de France. Not only did they win, they won in dominating fashion. All this time they were proclaiming that they were clean (to the point of not hiring people formerly involved with doping) yet had a doctor who had been. Given that the doctor is probably the most important staff member in doping, this is a pretty strange appointment. With all of that in mind, at no point prior to July 2012 had Geert Leinders been more notable.

I conclude by posing a second question (again, you might consider answering it):
Given that Leinders was at his most notable in 2012, what could Hog not having heard of him in, say, 2008 even prove?

Hope that clears things up for you a bit.

 

[Froome19]

Jimmy we've had our differences but I respect your post. It's a fair, honest and balanced view.
<snip>
Jimmy I am so excited at how you have finally seen the light

10 chars..

 

[thehog]

a pusher of drugs on young riders

but please care to show me some evidence, although not even anonymous rabo sources have said that

Thomas Dekker was 21 when Rabo and the team Doctor (Leinders) forced drugs on him.

“They should have told me to be patient and to stay clear of doping, but that wasn’t the case,” he said. “There was no dissenting voice. Doping was a way of life and a way of riding for many teammates, colleagues and me, too. Doping was part of the job – it’s hard, you train hard and you do everything for the bike.”