Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

Should certainly clear things up one way or another.
If he practised his dark arts with Sky, it will eventually come out.
If he didn't, then I guess it's back to the drawing board.

If everything always eventually comes out could you send me.a.list of every name, cycling and non cycling, who was working with fuentes at the time of.operation puerto ?

Also its ridiculous to.say that all the doubts about sky that go well beyond lienders will be proved wrong if lienders doesn't say anything

 

[thehog]

Seriously, though, this must mean alarm code red at Camp Sky.

Will he squeel? Will he not squeel?

Both the Spanish feds (Puerto) and the American feds (Lance) have been sensitive to political pressure. Let's see how tough the Belgians are.

The association with Sky is damming. Especially after the Armstrong Affair and that Lienders was so mysterious and barely ever appeared at races.

So many questions. So little answers....

For me I already know the answer. I said it before. Cycling died 24th December 2012.

 

[Joachim]

You are right to use the word 'association'. You clearly don't understand that it does not mean correlation.

So what's new today? Oh. Nothing.

Yawn.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

If everything always eventually comes out could you send me.a.list of every name, cycling and non cycling, who was working with fuentes at the time of.operation puerto ?

Also its ridiculous to.say that all the doubts about sky that go well beyond lienders will be proved wrong if lienders doesn't say anything

fuentes is 6 years ago. everything always comes out eventually. those are facts. nobody had expected armstrong to fall like he did, but he did. so if sky have anything dirty to hide, which I doubt it will come to light quickly. keep in mind in the case of armstrong there were at least good doping foundations because he was working with ferrari and journalists by 2000/2001 were writing about it, especially in france. nobody in france is talking about sky.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

You guys are being over-optimistic.

If Leinders says anything, he will say that yes, he was involved in doping at Rabobank due to the era but when the management team changed, he was forced to clean up his act and has been dope free ever since.

Will we take odds on what he reveals??/

and why would he be lieing? he doesn't really have a history of lieing. in fact already interviews of him 10 years ago he said pretty much he was doping riders only no journalist cared for it. but you can still read them back

 

[thehog]

You guys are being over-optimistic.

If Leinders says anything, he will say that yes, he was involved in doping at Rabobank due to the era but when the management team changed, he was forced to clean up his act and has been dope free ever since.

Will we take odds on what he reveals??/

This I agree with. But I also agree with what Cavendish said.

We expect more from cycling now. This is not good enough and Sky should be more transparent.

I don't expect it from them. But it would be good if they could step forward and clarify the matter for the sake of the fans.

I can see many here are fans of Sky and have invested in them as a team. That alone should mean Sky should be much more open. They shouldn't rely on the blind trust of their fans to "get away with it".

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

This I agree with. But I also agree with what Cavendish said.

We expect more from cycling now. This is not good enough and Sky should be more transparent.

I don't expect it from them. But it would be good if they could step forward and clarify the matter for the sake of the fans.

I can see many here are fans of Sky and have invested in them as a team. That alone should mean Sky should be much more open. They shouldn't rely on the blind trust of their fans to "get away with it".

yeah a nerdy cycling forum is definitely the norm

 

[The Hitch]

fuentes is 6 years ago. everything always comes out eventually. those are facts. nobody had expected armstrong to fall like he did, but he did. so if sky have anything dirty to hide, which I doubt it will come to light quickly. keep in mind in the case of armstrong there were at least good doping foundations because he was working with ferrari and journalists by 2000/2001 were writing about it, especially in france. nobody in france is talking about sky.

Your post is confusing. You say the fuentes files will come out ( even though they were burnt) despite it.already being 6 years, but that if sky doped it will come out quickly.

Anyway if.it all.always comes out why hasn't indurain fallen? Oh let me guess he didn't dope

We get it anyway. You don't think anyone dopes but Oscar Sevilla.

To try to project lances fall on sky or anyone else is ignorance btw. Like saying that since ricco tested positive every rider who dopes will eventually test positive. If anti doping was all.so easy no one would dope.

Everyone is different and i question the logic of anyone who comes.into.a.doping discussion and says- oh lance fell so.i guess everyone must fall exactly like lance did.

lance went around telling people he doped , selling drugs, showing people his stashes, and then proceeding to alienate those people. such a person is always far more likely to fall for simple reasons. Moreover lance won7 tdfs not 1 and was the biggest name the sport ever had.

Finally the idea that the ultimate test of whether someone dopes is whether French journalists write about them, is ludicrous. I do assume though that means you think nadal dopes. Another way to compare journalistic approaches is not to look at the people (or in your case nationalities) who said lance was dirty but those who said he was clean. it seems that many of the same people.who knew deep.in their hearts that lance was 100% clean seem to now know.deep in their hearts that wiggins is 100% clean.

 

[pmcg76]

and why would he be lieing? he doesn't really have a history of lieing. in fact already interviews of him 10 years ago he said pretty much he was doping riders only no journalist cared for it. but you can still read them back

Did I say he would be telling porkies? I said that the guys who are looking for some big scope on SKY will likely be left angry because what I suggested will be the likely outcome. Whether its true or not they will be seething. Only implicating SKY will satisfy them.

Unlike a lot of posters, I am not adverse to the idea of humans changing their behaviour over time so even if Leinders were the doping guy at Rabobank, doesn't automatically mean he was doing the same thing at SKY.

However, either way it looks very bad for SKY that they employed someone so dodgy and had their best season to date at the same time.

 

[thehog]

This I agree with. But I also agree with what Cavendish said.

We expect more from cycling now. This is not good enough and Sky should be more transparent.

I don't expect it from them. But it would be good if they could step forward and clarify the matter for the sake of the fans.

I can see many here are fans of Sky and have invested in them as a team. That alone should mean Sky should be much more open. They shouldn't rely on the blind trust of their fans to "get away with it".

More to the point we need cycling teams to help us help them.

Sky need to step forward and clarify the matter.

If they truely have zero tolorence then they need to show us the zero tolorence.

 

[coinneach]

You guys are being over-optimistic.

If Leinders says anything, he will say that yes, he was involved in doping at Rabobank due to the era but when the management team changed, he was forced to clean up his act and has been dope free ever since.

Will we take odds on what he reveals??/

I think this is the most likely senario.
I'm not sure about the "forced" though..... I suspect a lot of doctors keen on cycling got involved in doping issues: one or three saw it as a way to make major amounts of money. But I suspect most of them would rather not have gotten involved in epo + blood doping, especially when the evidence came though about riders dying.
I don't know what camp Leinders would be in: I'd probably guess the second one given his low profile until recently

 

[Grandillusion]

I think this is the most likely senario.
I'm not sure about the "forced" though..... I suspect a lot of doctors keen on cycling got involved in doping issues: one or three saw it as a way to make major amounts of money. But I suspect most of them would rather not have gotten involved in epo + blood doping, especially when the evidence came though about riders dying.
I don't know what camp Leinders would be in: I'd probably guess the second one given his low profile until recently

You must be joking! These people are amoral avaricious criminals, a total disgrace to their profession. What's with the soft-soaping?

 

[the sceptic]

Leinders has been doping riders against his will for so many years, and all he wanted to do was treat saddle sores.

 

[coinneach]

You must be joking! These people are amoral avaricious criminals, a total disgrace to their profession. What's with the soft-soaping?

Come off it! The one size fits all doesn't work here: I admit some folk get into medicine because it promises to pay lots but most doctors have more principles. If not they can be struck off.
They were as much victims of the system as the riders: still culpable but most dopers would rather not have doped, cyclists and doctors.

 

[Grandillusion]

Come off it! The one size fits all doesn't work here: I admit some folk get into medicine because it promises to pay lots but most doctors have more principles. If not they can be struck off.
They were as much victims of the system as the riders: still culpable but most dopers would rather not have doped, cyclists and doctors.

I'm talking about the doping doctors, not "most" doctors. Victims! Are you mad?

 

[Mellow Velo]

If everything always eventually comes out could you send me.a.list of every name, cycling and non cycling, who was working with fuentes at the time of.operation puerto ?

Also its ridiculous to.say that all the doubts about sky that go well beyond lienders will be proved wrong if lienders doesn't say anything

You don't sound too optimistic that any Sky riders will be implicated by Leinders, were he to confess under this investigation.

Interesting.

 

[thehog]

Leinders has been doping riders against his will for so many years, and all he wanted to do was treat saddle sores.

Injecting young riders with EPO.

Cool guy.

He was a dealer, an administer and pusher of drugs on young cyclists.

No wonder Sky searched him out to hire him.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Your post is confusing. You say the fuentes files will come out ( even though they were burnt) despite it.already being 6 years, but that if sky doped it will come out quickly.

Anyway if.it all.always comes out why hasn't indurain fallen? Oh let me guess he didn't dope

We get it anyway. You don't think anyone dopes but Oscar Sevilla.

To try to project lances fall on sky or anyone else is ignorance btw. Like saying that since ricco tested positive every rider who dopes will eventually test positive. If anti doping was all.so easy no one would dope.

Everyone is different and i question the logic of anyone who comes.into.a.doping discussion and says- oh lance fell so.i guess everyone must fall exactly like lance did.

lance went around telling people he doped , selling drugs, showing people his stashes, and then proceeding to alienate those people. such a person is always far more likely to fall for simple reasons. Moreover lance won7 tdfs not 1 and was the biggest name the sport ever had.

Finally the idea that the ultimate test of whether someone dopes is whether French journalists write about them, is ludicrous. I do assume though that means you think nadal dopes. Another way to compare journalistic approaches is not to look at the people (or in your case nationalities) who said lance was dirty but those who said he was clean. it seems that many of the same people.who knew deep.in their hearts that lance was 100% clean seem to now know.deep in their hearts that wiggins is 100% clean.

why does indurain have to fall? nobody believes he was clean or anyone in that era.

and of course fuentes will come out. not the files, but those who have doped, secrets can never hold in this world. that's a lesson we all learn. it may take 50 years, who knows, but more importantly, who cares? I don't. cycling has become very clean in recent years. that's the decision cycling has made and it's fine with me now.

 

[coinneach]

I'm talking about the doping doctors, not "most" doctors. Victims! Are you mad?

I hope not!
I think you are making a mistake in seeing all "doping doctors" as the same.
Lots (most?) people have things to do in their work they'd rather not.
I was trying to suggest that some"doping doctors" would rather not have doped, but were doing it because their managers/employers expected it as part of the job. They probably even thought it was better if they did it rather than leave the cyclists to do it to themselves
I don't doubt that some of these doctors (3 spring to mind) should be struck off, but I don't (at this stage) have Leinders in this this set of people; I think more likely he was "only obeying orders"
Ok you may disagree with me, but can you at least accept that there are variations of culpability amongst doctors who have administered PED's?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Injecting young riders with EPO.

Cool guy.

He was a dealer, an administer and pusher of drugs on young cyclists.

No wonder Sky searched him out to hire him.

lol. your rehashed lies are getting so old now

 

[Grandillusion]

I hope not!
I think you are making a mistake in seeing all "doping doctors" as the same.
Lots (most?) people have things to do in their work they'd rather not.
I was trying to suggest that some"doping doctors" would rather not have doped, but were doing it because their managers/employers expected it as part of the job. They probably even thought it was better if they did it rather than leave the cyclists to do it to themselves
I don't doubt that some of these doctors (3 spring to mind) should be struck off, but I don't (at this stage) have Leinders in this this set of people; I think more likely he was "only obeying orders"
Ok you may disagree with me, but can you at least accept that there are variations of culpability amongst doctors who have administered PED's?

Er, no sorry I can't accept that Coinneach, I think you're being remarkably soft on them, and the Nuremberg defence definitely can't be applied. They all know what they were doing was dangerous, illegal, and wholly against the tenets of their profession.

Sorry if I sounded a tad aggressive - nothing personal honest

 

[coinneach]

Er, no sorry I can't accept that Coinneach, I think you're being remarkably soft on them, and the Nuremberg defence definitely can't be applied. They all know what they were doing was dangerous, illegal, and wholly against the tenets of their profession.

Sorry if I sounded a tad aggressive - nothing personal honest

No offense taken: it'll be interesting to see how this theme develops as more evidence comes out
If Sky stick to British doctors from now on (is that Italian bloke Barolucci still on their books?) those doctors could loose their registration if they involved themselves in some of the nasty stuff that we now know went on.
Mind you, it also went on without doctors doing it: I'm also thinking here about Tylers descriptions of self administered transfusions in hotel rooms....scarey stuff!

 

[thehog]

lol. your rehashed lies are getting so old now

Which part are lies? This has all been presented under oath and in court.

Sky's Doctor from 2012 injected young men with EPO.

Fact.

 

[ebandit]

emotive

Which part are lies? This has all been presented under oath and in court.

Sky's Doctor from 2012 injected young men with EPO.

Fact.

dealer / pusher are emotive words.............not part of any report i have read

 

[Joachim]

Which part are lies? This has all been presented under oath and in court.

Sky's Doctor from 2012 injected young men with EPO.

Fact.

...and the rest of your exaggerations?

Leinders administered EPO to willing riders. Fact.

I love how your use of 'young men' implies they were innocent babes who had drugs forcibly pumped into them by Doctor Death. We don't yet know whether he supplied it directly, and we can safely assume that riders had a choice.

No point trying to elide this with Sky's appointment of him. Do you really think doping expertise is hard to come by in cycling?