Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Joachim]

.
it's not easy to find someone with a portfolio like Leinders.

You reckon? Have you had your eyes closed these past 20 years?


It's not easy to find someone who hasn't

 

[Benotti69]

no mistake.
a calculated, necessary risk.
it's not easy to find someone with a portfolio like Leinders.

Not easy at all, especially a guy that was enough under the radar to most fans.

 

[red_flanders]

Splitting hairs will get you nowhere. He was 21 years old. Leinders was a Doctor. An older Doctor. He forced EPO on Dekker. He took advantage of his youth. I'm sorry. But pretending that's its "ok" is sick.

"Influenced" is pretty different than "forced". Lets move back from the clearly inflammatory language please. Thanks.

 

[pmcg76]

On the subject of background checks on Leinders, surely all SKY had to do was ask two of their own employees. Matthew Hayman who was at Rabobank from 2000-09 and Juan Antonio Flecha, Rabobank 2006-09.

Are people telling me SKY failed to ask their own guys who probably had some contact with Leinders previously if he was on the level. ****, they didn't even need to do a background check.

I guess this makes SKY even more dodgy looking.

 

[Benotti69]

On the subject of background checks on Leinders, surely all SKY had to do was ask two of their own employees. Matthew Hayman who was at Rabobank from 2000-09 and Juan Antonio Flecha, Rabobank 2006-09.

Are people telling me SKY failed to ask their own guys who probably had some contact with Leinders previously if he was on the level. ****, they didn't even need to do a background check.

Maybe Hayman and Flecha recommended Leinders

 

[Caruut]

You reckon? Have you had your eyes closed these past 20 years?


It's not easy to find someone who hasn't

A regular doctor's surgery would probably be the place to look.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

On the subject of background checks on Leinders, surely all SKY had to do was ask two of their own employees. Matthew Hayman who was at Rabobank from 2000-09 and Juan Antonio Flecha, Rabobank 2006-09.

Are people telling me SKY failed to ask their own guys who probably had some contact with Leinders previously if he was on the level. ****, they didn't even need to do a background check.

I guess this makes SKY even more dodgy looking.

Leinders came, "highly recommended". Brailsford - 2012.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A regular doctor's surgery would probably be the place to look.

Any doctor not involved with cycling, perhaps?

Hint:
1. all cyclists experience the same problems.
2. some cyclists are medical doctors

 

[fatsprintking]

A calculated risk that fails is a mistake. Maybe something that works at one level but then causes more issues in other areas that the supposed gains the risk achieved.

If Sky's expoused values do not match their demonstrated values then they leave themselves exposed. This is what I think has happened. Their PR has not been in step with their operational processes and this has been pounced on.

This does not prove anything but it creates a mistrust. The way this disconnect has been handled has not helped but rather made the problem bigger. Sky tried to play the PR game but they did not do it well and so their PR becomes a liability. They continue to try and deal with a PR issue at a micro level rather than accepting that they may have cultural issues that need to be addressed if they are going to establish credibility.

To not tackle the issue of doping in a full and honest way in the current climate is a stupid approach. To not expect that as the current tour champions that this will not be the first questions asked of you is niave.

 

[Froome19]

Leinders came, "highly recommended". Brailsford - 2012.

Concerning that if Leinders really was hired to mastermind a doping programme then that would be a rather strange thing to say to draw attention to him.

 

[thehog]

"Influenced" is pretty different than "forced". Lets move back from the clearly inflammatory language please. Thanks.

Not really. Very similar to DaveZ's story. He was on $30,000 a year. If he wanted a bigger salary he had to dope. Bruyneel gave him one option.

Lets look at Rabo and Leinders;

Nelissen, who retired in 1999 and now works for Eurosport, said that the pressure of supporting a family had influenced his decision to dope. “I had no qualifications,” he said. “I was afraid that I would not be able to support my wife and children. That persuaded me.”

I don't see a big differnce.

He was "forced" to dope and Leinders administered and injected the riders. Young & old.

If Dekker refused like Neilsessen he would have lost their place on the team.

It's fairly straight forward. I'm sure that if we faced the same pressure in our working lives would we dope or not? That's forced.

 

[Joachim]

On the subject of background checks on Leinders, surely all SKY had to do was ask two of their own employees. Matthew Hayman who was at Rabobank from 2000-09 and Juan Antonio Flecha, Rabobank 2006-09.

Are people telling me SKY failed to ask their own guys who probably had some contact with Leinders previously if he was on the level. ****, they didn't even need to do a background check.
.

Yes, the conversation that didn't take place may have gone like this:

Brailsford: " Juan, we've got this Leinders guy coming in for an interview. You knew him at Rabo. You know we have a no-doping policy. Did he get up to anything dodgy at Rabo?"

Flecha:" Yes, he gave me EPO........DOH!"

 

[The Hitch]

Concerning that if Leinders really was hired to mastermind a doping programme then that would be a rather strange thing to say to draw attention to him.

Depends when Bailsford said it. If he said it before anyone had questioned Lienders then yes. If he said it in response to questions being asked about Lienders after attention was already drawn to him, then it would look more like an attempt to draw the attention back away.

 

[pmcg76]

Concerning that if Leinders really was hired to mastermind a doping programme then that would be a rather strange thing to say to draw attention to him.

Surely Flecha or Hayman would have given Bralisford the lowdown on Leinders.

I know if I had a business and was thinking of hiring a guy and I had two guys on the books who previously worked with him, I would sure as hell ask them about that person and their work.

Maybe they had zero contact with Leinders or had good experiences without doping but surely they knew about the other stuff as well. Maybe they said he had previous but had cleaned up his act when the management change happened and was actually a good doctor. Still doesn't clear SKY.

 

[Joachim]

Not really. Very similar to DaveZ's story. He was on $30,000 a year. If he wanted a bigger salary he had to dope. Bruyneel gave him one option.

Lets look at Rabo and Leinders;



I don't see a big differnce.

He was "forced" to dope and Leinders administered and injected the riders. Young & old.

If Dekker refused like Neilsessen he would have lost their place on the team.

It's fairly straight forward. I'm sure that if we faced the same pressure in our working lives would we dope or not? That's forced.

Oh that's really lame for you. Make your mind up, was he "forced" by Leinders (your original assertion) or was he forced by his personal circumstances? (what your half-arsed attempt at sophistry actual entails)

 

[thehog]

Wow. Lots of angry people tonight. The knife is cutting very deep.

 

[WinterRider]

A lot of LOL tonight.
Hoggie has been on sparkling form.
More chum in the water than in the average supermarket.

FACTS I have learnt tonight.
a) Doping first appeared in 1991.
b) The age of consent in the Netherlands is 22
c) Simple questions are actually personal attacks in disguise.



Look beyond the Hogmonay and we find some accord.
It seems that everyone agrees that Leinder's was a massive mistake: a huge, stinky turd in the middle of Sky's PR clean plate.

Whether or not you like Hog's tactics, given that Leinders was running a team doping program for years, what are the odds that no one on Team sky knew that?

From everything I've read about pro cycling and what a small community it is, the answer has to be close to zero.

It is much more likely that a lot of them knew. Which raises the question: Why hire him at all?

Sky's answer is that they needed a doctor who understood cycling, that their policy of only hiring people with no past in cycling was endangering their riders. Given their riding after Geert came on board, I'd say there is a strong case to be made that it was for other reasons.

If the real reason was to have a cycling specific doctor, why wasn't he attending on a regular basis at cycling specific events like their major races. Instead he seems to have been a well kept secret.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

 

[pmcg76]

Yes, the conversation that didn't take place may have gone like this:

Brailsford: " Juan, we've got this Leinders guy coming in for an interview. You knew him at Rabo. You know we have a no-doping policy. Did he get up to anything dodgy at Rabo?"

Flecha:" Yes, he gave me EPO........DOH!"

So you are saying the whole no-doping policy is just PR bull**** and SKY are as likely to be as full of dopers as any other team.

You are not really forwarding the case of SKY being clean.

Also Flecha could as easily say "Well I didn't have any contact with him but yes he was doping others"

You are not really thinking this through, are you!!

 

[Caruut]

Oh that's really lame for you. Make your mind up, was he "forced" by Leinders (your original assertion) or was he forced by his personal circumstances? (what your half-arsed attempt at sophistry actual entails)

He was complicit in a system which he probably knew left riders little choice but to dope if they wished to protect their livelihood. I think "both" is a reasonable answer.

 

[WinterRider]

Maybe Hayman and Flecha recommended Leinders

Quite likely I'd say.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Wow. Lots of angry people tonight.

Angry? Which posters would that be then?

 

[Benotti69]

Depends when Bailsford said it. If he said it before anyone had questioned Lienders then yes. If he said it in response to questions being asked about Lienders after attention was already drawn to him, then it would look more like an attempt to draw the attention back away.

It was part of an interview he gave trying to explain the decision to hire Leinders. He also used the death of the soigneur at La Vuelta as another reason for hiring Leinders.

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-a...ses-doctor-dilemma-we-are-100-per-cent-clean/

Brailsford’s search for doctors with experience in professional cycling was a frustrating one. Finding experienced, respected doctors with detailed knowledge of the demands placed on athletes by events like the Tour de France who had not worked for professional cycling teams was, Brailsford said, not easy. Dr Leinders came highly recommended.

 

[Joachim]

He was complicit in a system which he probably knew left riders little choice but to dope if they wished to protect their livelihood. I think "both" is a reasonable answer.

Do you really think Dekker didn't get a place on that team knowing full well what pro cycling involved? Come on...

 

[Joachim]

Angry? Which posters would that be then?

He's just goading, Pedro. Leave him be, wittering away to himself like a p1ss-stain trousered vagrant in a derelict shop doorway




(Apologies for the above, hog, just liked the image and felt it was worth sharing)

 

[Trek1000]

This is like Lance all over again. Team gets connected with a doping doctor and a load of fanboys come to protect them.

Will ye people ever learn?