Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

Love it, Sky hire a dodgy doctor and its nothing more than Bad PR thats all

Dodgy? He's a lot worse than that!

He managed a team-wide systematic doping program at Rabobank for years on end. He must have been good at it. Because no one tested positive in that time. 1996-2009

Thus it makes sense he was hired by Sky for his expertise with saddle sores

Brailsford didn't commit bad PR. He lied.

Lienders barely appeared at races.

What was he doing there at Sky?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think it's more the fact that the "ZTP" wasn't taken seriously until 6 months ago. They didn't bother screening staff (or didn't find their history an issue). It's not like hiring people with a history is extraordinary - it happens all the time and most teams are involved. Why should Sky be any different.

I prefer to separate the issue from the matter of "do Sky dope". Having Leinders et al on their team is a problem regardless of whether or not they were hired to dope. As of now they have gone some way to addressing this problem which is commendable (it may be a PR exercise but it's still a positive).

This. The original ZTP may have been in full effect but you get the sense it was relaxed as the harsher realities of pro-tour kicked in after a poor 2010 season, and characters like Leinders and Rogers were recruiting.

The presence of Leinders isn't damning per se, at least certainly not in isolation, but I am very concerned at the level he was involved in the doping at Rabobank, which seems to put him into higher league of doping doctor than I originally imagined. Ferrari-esque even, which rings all sorts of alarm bells for me.

I realise I have often countered arguments that said the same thing but you really can't ignore what ex-Rabobank riders are saying, he's been mentioned several times as the organiser and injecter of the EPO. It's apalling Sky had someone like that at their team. If there was doping I hope the whole team folds, if there wasn't doping then whoever was responsible for hiring him should resign immediately in my opinion.

A crass, unforgiveable error to fail to do the requisite back ground checks and bring someone like that into a supposedly clean set-up. Very unhappy

 

[thehog]

Dodgy? He's a lot worse than that!

He managed a team-wide systematic doping program at Rabobank for years on end. He must have been good at it. Because no one tested positive in that time. 1996-2009

Thus it makes sense he was hired by Sky for his expertise with saddle sores

Brailsford didn't commit bad PR. He lied.

Lienders barely appeared at races.

What was he doing there at Sky?

I would add. If the letter is true; that 12 Rabobank riders have written to a newspaper stating that their employer and team Doctor who was meant to care for them but instead injected them with EPO then that's big.

Defending it as bad PR is just glossing over a fundamental issue. Cycling is still sick.

Doping is alive and well in 2012 as it was in 2005.

Period.

 

[MartinGT]

Dodgy? He's a lot worse than that!

He managed a team-wide systematic doping program at Rabobank for years on end. He must have been good at it. Because no one tested positive in that time. 1996-2009

Thus it makes sense he was hired by Sky for his expertise with saddle sores

Brailsford didn't commit bad PR. He lied.

Lienders barely appeared at races.

What was he doing there at Sky?

I hear you brother, I hear you.

 

[Joachim]

I would add. If the letter is true; that 12 Rabobank riders have written to a newspaper stating that their employer and team Doctor who was meant to care for them but instead injected them with EPO then that's big.

Defending it as bad PR is just glossing over a fundamental issue. Cycling is still sick.

Doping is alive and well in 2012 as it was in 2005.

Period.

Congratulations. You've just described doping at Rabobank.

When you can tell us something about Sky, please do.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Apology Accepted

...I realise I have often countered arguments that said the same thing but you really can't ignore what ex-Rabobank riders are saying, he's been mentioned several times as the organiser and injecter of the EPO. It's apalling Sky had someone like that at their team. If there was doping I hope the whole team folds, if there wasn't doping then whoever was responsible for hiring him should resign immediately in my opinion.
... Very unhappy

Well done Jimmy F for acknowledging the overwhelming evidence and doing an 'about turn' and apologising. You have gone up in my estimations at least.

Joachim may want to also join in.

 

[veganrob]

Dodgy? He's a lot worse than that!

He managed a team-wide systematic doping program at Rabobank for years on end. He must have been good at it. Because no one tested positive in that time. 1996-2009

Thus it makes sense he was hired by Sky for his expertise with saddle sores

Brailsford didn't commit bad PR. He lied.

Lienders barely appeared at races.

What was he doing there at Sky?

Yep, you just can't make that *** up.

Sky hire a doping doctor to treat saddle sores and keep the sognieur from dying of crazy illness at races, and then he doesn't even show for them.

Yow.

 

[MartinGT]

Congratulations. You've just described doping at Rabobank.

When you can tell us something about Sky, please do.

Ah, so you really think a lepoard can change its spots?

 

[Joachim]

Well done Jimmy F for acknowledging the overwhelming evidence and doing an 'about turn' and apologising. You have gone up in my estimations at least.

Joachim may want to also join in.

Believe me, when somebody presents overwhelming evidence, I will.

Got a bit of a way to go with that. Let's start with some evidence.

 

[MartinGT]

Believe me, when somebody presents overwhelming evidence, I will.

Got a bit of a way to go with that. Let's start with some evidence.

Overwhelming? So Johan Brailsford confession.



You have got to admit dude it stinks?

 

[Froome19]

Brailsford didn't commit bad PR. He lied.

Is this another of your fantastic assumptions.. based on what exactly?

 

[Benotti69]

Is this another of your fantastic assumptions.. based on what exactly?

No doping doctors. He lied about doing it clean with non cycling doctors.

Brailsford is not some wet behind the ears guy who fancied running a pro team and wouldn't know whose who in cycling.

He Lied. He lied before about when he was Millar when he was arrested for doping.

Brailsford got form on lies.

 

[MartinGT]

Is this another of your fantastic assumptions.. based on what exactly?

Knowing Leinders was dodgy. Of course he bloody knew.

 

[Ferminal]

How do you seperate the issue?

Sky might have been a doping team from the get go and were failing miserably because the people they were using did not have the right experience. (Just like Motorola before it morphed into USPS)

So what do they do? they get experience, Leinders et al. Now they won all that they wanted to win, except the Olympic RR for Cav and have given their sponsors a huge payback for the investment.

They then turnaround and jettison all the 'experienced' staff who have no doubt handed down that knowledge to the 'ZTP staff' and bob's yer uncle.

This year the 'ZTP staff' have the know how.

Or it might be that Leinders got himself a camper van for his holidays in the Alps.

To seperate the issue is exactly what Braislford's pr is trying to do as well as trying to bury it.

It's just fishing. If Sky's A Team are on the sauce it's not Leinders ultimately responsible. If they wanted to dope, it would have happened, one way or another. It's not as if young Bradley Wiggins was steadfast in his resolve against doping until the evil Leinders showed up at training camp in December 2010 and corrupted him.

Don't try and answer the question of "are Sky doping" with "of course they are, look at all their dodgy staff". That logic works if it's Michele frickin Ferrari but not many others.

It's a lot easier to say "I believe Sky dope, it's possible that Geert Leinders was involved" than say "Geert Leinders works for Sky, therefore they dope". Honestly, if an assessment of Sky being clean/dirty hinges on Leinders, it's not very sound.

I certainly don't believe Europcar are clean just because they are a cleanish staff list.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Ah, so you really think a lepoard can change its spots?

Generally, yes of course, but in this specific instance no, I don't think we'll get told anything about Sky, that would be spot changing of the highest order.

 

[the sceptic]

Knowing Leinders was dodgy. Of course he bloody knew.

If he didnt know then he is highly incompetent and not suited for running a clean team. He should walk along with all the others.

 

[the asian]

You reckon? Have you had your eyes closed these past 20 years?


It's not easy to find someone who hasn't

Leinders had a track record of winning GTs. He also would have won the Tour in 07 if Rasmussen wasn't pulled out. Ferrari and Fuentes were household names and SKY can't hire them. Leinders was the most fitting choice.

Also it was known among cycling circles that When Rabo decided to go clean, Leinders disagreed saying that it wasn't possible to run a clean team.
That was one of the main reasons his contract wasn't renewed.

One year later he joins a team with a zero tolerance policy on doping and a policy of not hiring previously suspended riders.

At least Sky should have inquired from Rabo, why his contract wasn't renewed?

 

[the asian]

Leinders came, "highly recommended". Brailsford - 2012.

By Steven de Jongh.

 

[thehog]

By Steven de Jongh.

Exactly.



(10)

 

[SundayRider]

Exactly.



(10)

Unfortunately in cycling where there is smoke, 999 times out of 1000 there is also fire.

 

[Benotti69]

It's just fishing. If Sky's A Team are on the sauce it's not Leinders ultimately responsible. If they wanted to dope, it would have happened, one way or another. It's not as if young Bradley Wiggins was steadfast in his resolve against doping until the evil Leinders showed up at training camp in December 2010 and corrupted him.

Don't try and answer the question of "are Sky doping" with "of course they are, look at all their dodgy staff". That logic works if it's Michele frickin Ferrari but not many others.

It's a lot easier to say "I believe Sky dope, it's possible that Geert Leinders was involved" than say "Geert Leinders works for Sky, therefore they dope". Honestly, if an assessment of Sky being clean/dirty hinges on Leinders, it's not very sound.

I certainly don't believe Europcar are clean just because they are a cleanish staff list.

But it doesn't hinge on that. That is definitely important, but look at who else they removed from the team, Yates, Jullich, Sutton and others. It also hinges on the amazing season they had, Wigins won every stage race he entered last year. 1st rider to win PN, DL and TdF in the same season. Look at the Sky train in the mountains during the TdF. There are lots and lots of dots to the 'Sky are doping'. If you were told after his 4th at the TdF in 2009 that Wiggins would have a 2012 like that would you have believed it? No way.

If Sky were/are clean, why sack all these guys? Why not say he had his own personal T&R with them and the past is the past. At Sky we are doing it differently.

It would appear that Leinders was Rabo's Michele frickin Ferrari

 

[SundayRider]

Thing that got me is that Sky said they needed someone like Leinders to look after athletes as there needs are different from normal people etc, they could have hired a doctor from a different sport (one that is 'viewed as' clean, even if it is not) and avoided all this suspicion. So why didn't they do this? Because there aren't that many doctors willing to oversee a doping program.

 

[Ferminal]

It would appear that Leinders was Rabo's Michele frickin Ferrari

Yeh because every cyclist who has ever had a working relationship with Leinders has been on a highly sophisticated doping program.

 

[thehog]

Yeh because every cyclist who has ever had a working relationship with Leinders has been on a highly sophisticated doping program.

It certainly appears that way from the testimony (under oath) coming from former Rabobank riders. There was a “team-wide” and “highly sophisticated” doping program at Rabo since 2000.

This is cause for great concern. Pretending it is anything else is naive.

 

[WinterRider]

Dodgy? He's a lot worse than that!

He managed a team-wide systematic doping program at Rabobank for years on end. He must have been good at it. Because no one tested positive in that time. 1996-2009

Thus it makes sense he was hired by Sky for his expertise with saddle sores

Brailsford didn't commit bad PR. He lied.

Lienders barely appeared at races.

What was he doing there at Sky?

This is the big question for me. Sky need to be completely open about his time there at this stage if they want to be taken seriously as a non-doping team.

Which races/camps did he attend? What was his role there? If he was hired to give a cycling doctor's perspective on health in grand tours, which tours was he at?