Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thirteen]

That's what happens if you join a clean team under false pretences.

forgive me if you've already said this (i apologise but i haven't read every post), but do you honestly believe that everybody on/or affiliated with the team is clean?

 

[thehog]

So what is it? Do we have a zero tolerance punish the doper? or do we have a golden parachute arrangement?

Tell me ebandit, which of the two DB's we see are the real one? The one we hear? Or the one we see act?

ebandit might need a ladder. That’s a might big hole he has dug himself there.

 

[Joachim]

forgive me if you've already said this (i apologise but i haven't read every post), but do you honestly believe that everybody on/or affiliated with the team is clean?

That post was just me being a bit flippant

But to answer your question, no I don't believe that. The short answer is I don't know who is clean and who isn't, but then I'm in good company with everyone else here, despite the confidence with which they propound their views.

Do I think some riders on Sky have doped in the past? Almost certainly. Do I think they are now? I don't know. As for staff, I can't see that it can be anything other than a minefield trying to appoint squeaky clean people. One way or another, I suspect most ex-riders, long time support staff are tainted in some way. I don't think that neccesarily means they are facilitating drug cheating now. I think you can try to run a clean team, but I think it would be fraught with difficulties.

 

[Joachim]

And then to your question: I'm a contract manager. Lieing is a surefire way to loose a contract and to get your name blacklisted. Sure, there is stretching and even breaking of contract, but outright lies are very rare. Your reputation is what carries your business.

So that's a no then.

(but thank you for replying )

 

[Grandillusion]

Is he? That is an inference too far.

Besides, to even begin to question his words you'd have to know when he said them. Before UCIIC statement on Friday, or after...

Sorry for the delay in answering, I've been out.

It is not an inference too far, he is saying explicitly that he doesn't think an Amnesty & T&R process is needed because he doesn't see an objective. He is pretending to be unaware of the nearly two month old wrangling between the bodies pressing for it and those trying to obstruct it. He has publicly allied himself with the latter, at the most unhelpful time possible to be making such a statement. Plain as day.

His statement came after Friday, not that it matters as the reasons for calling for the Amnesty & T&R have been known for ages. To assist the investigation into the UCI's alleged malfeasance. That is the objective which Brailsford claims to be unaware of.

 

[Joachim]

Sorry for the delay in answering, I've been out

S'okay. I've got a life too

It is not an inference too far, he is saying explicitly that he doesn't think an Amnesty & T&R process is needed because he doesn't see an objective. He is pretending to be unaware of the nearly two month old wrangling between the bodies pressing for it and those trying to obstruct it. He has publicly allied himself with the latter, at the most unhelpful time possible to be making such a statement. Plain as day.

You see I can't see any indication that he thinks it is unneeded. None. Just that he thinks it needs a clear objective. If that is what he is saying, it is hard to disagree.

His statement came after Friday, not that it matters as the reasons for calling for the Amnesty & T&R have been known for ages. To assist the investigation into the UCI's alleged malfeasance. That is the objective which Brailsford claims to be unaware of.

When precisely was he interviewed? The publication of an interview is no indication that it took place the same day.

As for your main point in that last paragraph, yes, that is a coherent argument, it works, but it isn't conclusive. Besides, if you are correct, who was he hoping to influence by saying those things in a cycling magazine interview. Somebody of influence? A decision maker? If he was up to no good he'd keep his gob shut in public and pull what strings he could behind the scenes.

 

[Grandillusion]

S'okay. I've got a life too



You see I can't see any indication that he thinks it is unneeded. None. Just that he thinks it needs a clear objective. If that is what he is saying, it is hard to disagree.



When precisely was he interviewed? The publication of an interview is no indication that it took place the same day.

As for your main point in that last paragraph, yes, that is a coherent argument, it works, but it isn't conclusive. Besides, if you are correct, who was he hoping to influence by saying those things in a cycling magazine interview. Somebody of influence? A decision maker? If he was up to no good he'd keep his gob shut in public and pull what strings he could behind the scenes.

The last paragraph is related to the first paragraph! The objective. The objective which dave claims not to know about. The whole reason for the Amnesty & T&R process. It is conclusive, sorry.

as I said in the previous post, the timing of his statement is irrelevant - the objective has been known about for months. He's just claiming to be unaware of it. Unreal!

 

[thirteen]

That post was just me being a bit flippant

But to answer your question, no I don't believe that. The short answer is I don't know who is clean and who isn't, but then I'm in good company with everyone else here, despite the confidence with which they propound their views.

Do I think some riders on Sky have doped in the past? Almost certainly. Do I think they are now? I don't know. As for staff, I can't see that it can be anything other than a minefield trying to appoint squeaky clean people. One way or another, I suspect most ex-riders, long time support staff are tainted in some way. I don't think that neccesarily means they are facilitating drug cheating now. I think you can try to run a clean team, but I think it would be fraught with difficulties.

okay, cool!

and thank you for answering the question. it's not always easy to keep track

 

[Libertine Seguros]

often sit and I long, I am able to cry without tears.
I do empty Ieyes and each question I answer pro.
But in the morning on a way to a booth I often want, that is not present.
Me the fresh paint of newspapers "Союзпечать" has learned to dream.
I should be well informed, I do money,
False money.

I often go to cinema, empty, as a Czech tram,
I look foreign film, try me catch, I
Always one.

But in the morning on a way to a booth we together want that are not present,
The fresh paint of newspapers, "Союзпечать" has learned to wait for me.
We should be well informed, we do money,
False money.

When you go by me, do not do such person,
As if to you to spit, that the country will tell about us
And "Союзпечать"
Remember, we do money,
False money.
__________________
ht

Sorry LS forgot to ask on the abysmal translation, who's the poet then?

That's actually a song, from the respected Russian singer, songwriter, actor and playwright Pyotr Mamonov.

A more accurate translation, tidied up a bit from Peter Vronsky's documentary on the Russian art and music underground in the 80s:

I often sit in sadness, I know how to cry without tears
I make empty eyes, and every issue I am for
But in the morning on the way to the kiosk, I often want what they do not have
And I was taught to dream by the fresh ink of the newspapers, "Soyuzpechat'"
I have to be well-informed, I am making money
False money

I often go to the cinema, as empty as a Czech tramway
I watch a foreign film, and try to catch myself, I am always alone
But in the morning on the way to the kiosk, we all together want what they do not have
We have all been taught to wait by the fresh ink of the newspapers, "Soyuzpechat'"
We have to be well-informed, we are making money
False money

When you pass me by, don't make that face again
Don't act like you couldn't care about what we say about our nation
And "Soyuzpechat'"
Remember, we're all making money
False money

Soyuzpechat' was the name of the state press distribution agency in the Soviet Union, I guess it would be best translated as The United Press. That's how Vronsky translates it.

Not likely to be Kafka, but the nightmarishly surreal surely has some traction in explaining blood-doped professional sport.

Dave.

To continue with the Russian theme, Nikolai Gogol could have been a source. He was a big influence, both on the Russian realists and the surreal nature of Kafka. Like Kafka, he would take an absurd situation and treat it as if it was ordinary. Like when Gregor Samsa transforms into a giant insect, there is no questioning of why, that just happens. What's important is that he's an insect now. Gogol's The Nose is a superb similar kind of idea, when a politician's nose "goes solo" as it were and develops a career of its own. At one point he wishes to challenge the nose, but is conflicted on how to do this as the nose outranks him.

 

[Grandillusion]

Cheers LS! I'm going to google yer man Mamonov now & try & watch that doc.

Yep,I agree, The Nose is a fantastic story.. only read that last year for the first time.

 

[ebandit]

'tis ok

ebandit might need a ladder. That’s a might big hole he has dug himself there.

'tis ok hoggie............divvunt worry yasel

i just expressed an opinion....................and no ex team sky employee has chipped in to say i was incorrect

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Well, I don't think his reasoning is flawed. My dislike for Dave Brailsford doesn't stop me reading what he says and in this case I think he has a point.

Now if he would be a good member of the T&R commision? You know how I think of him and his "trustworthiness". I think he's a bit like the wooden boy.

First of all, I have no faith at all in any commission brought into live by the UCI/McQuaid and those villains, my sole point is/was Sir Dave is not the person to be judgemental given his omerta style cleaning house of 'the clean team'.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I share his scepticism. Without a clear (rudimentary)plan what to do with the confessions and some stated goals it's likely to go to waste. Clean cycling is simply to big and vague a goal. We all want peace on earth.

I agree with this. I'm at a loss as to want a T&R would accomplish apart from draw a metaphorical line under cycling's past, allow those that cheated to go scott-free for past misdemeanours and start in the sport with a clean slate.

Personbally I would like to see a root and branch purge to clean the sport out totally. But given the mire the sport is in, and the numbers involved you would presumably strip away half the pro-tour, riders and staff. And of course that is dependant on their honesty.

So again the cheaters hold the sport to ransom. Unless the proverbial clean slate is offer the cheaters remain hidden, omerta is preserved and cycling is stuck, one foot in and one foot out. Do a T&R and you have people that have cheated their way throughout their careers, making a good living in the process, continue to make a living from the sport they betrayed simply by sticking their hand up and saying 'it's a fair cop guv'.

For me a T&R process may simply the best of a bad lot as it were.

 

[ebandit]

?

I agree with this. I'm at a loss as to want a T&R would accomplish apart from draw a metaphorical line under cycling's past, allow those that cheated to go scott-free for past misdemeanours and start in the sport with a clean slate.

but am i not correct in thinking that wada code only allows shorter bans
( min 6 months ) no 'cheater' could get off 'scott free'

athletes would only 'fess up' and take that min ban if they feared being caught

what hope is there for t & r without an effective carrot to offer?

 

[JimmyFingers]

but am i not correct in thinking that wada code only allows shorter bans
( min 6 months ) no 'cheater' could get off 'scott free'

athletes would only 'fess up' and take that min ban if they feared being caught

what hope is there for t & r without an effective carrot to offer?

Does a six month ban compensate for the level or length of cheating? Does it apply to staff as well as riders? Vaughters for example, might he have to take a six month hiatus from running Garmin, from drawing a salary? Should those that admit to cheating be required to return their winnings?

I don't see a T&R as an answer. For all their bleating about pressure and mistakes, these are people that made dubious moral decisions in regards to their sporting career, and it will allow them to continue to work within the sport and be coaching and developing the talents of the future.

How long before that line is crossed again? It also sets a precedent that future cheats could call upon: 'I cheated but I admit it, I am very sorry, I'll just disappear for 6 months and then I'll be back riding and earning money'

As I said, maybe it's the best of a bad lot, but it doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[ebandit]

compensation?

sadly t & r is going nowhere ( look out for discussions in the t & r thread )

before the process starts there would require amendments to wada code

but is that an issue to uci? do they really want results?

i'm aware of distinct rules for athletes ( 6 month ban is min for athletes
who co-operate )
i don't think that there are similar clear rules for team staff.....there should be!

 

[thirteen]

Bradley Wiggins takes issue with Team Sky's zero tolerance approach

 

[sublimit]

Wiggins comments about to be misinterpreted... 3... 2... 1

He's right though, Sky botched that situation bigstyle.

 

[Mellow Velo]

but am i not correct in thinking that wada code only allows shorter bans
( min 6 months ) no 'cheater' could get off 'scott free'

athletes would only 'fess up' and take that min ban if they feared being caught

what hope is there for t & r without an effective carrot to offer?

All depends on when the 6 months have to be served.
Start of October to end of March: Hardly a slap on the wrist.
The other half of the year and it's effectively a year out.
Not much truth going to outed under that sanction.

So, it's a matter of timing and belonging to benevolent federation.

 

[Ferminal]

What is the difference between having an "ex"-doper rider on a team and an "ex"-doper manager?

I never really thought about this always assuming the manager was the greater danger, but the rider can be just as influential.

 

[horsinabout]

The Dave Brailsford thread was closed as being discussed in the Sky thread.

Dave Brailsford Curriculum vitae.

Educational qualifications.

Degree in Sport science and psychology (for chester HE college)

This should get you a position as an assistant sport co-ordinator at you local leisure centre.

MBA in business mangagement (sheffield Uni).

This should get promotion to senior sport co-ordinator.

Work experience

From the age of 19 to 23 rode as a professional road cyclist in France.

Palmares unspecified.

Before returning to the UK to continue his education. In laymans terms means - didn't cut the mustard as a pro cyclist?

Work placement

Special adviser to Peter Keen as a financial manager of lottery funding.

Where he subscribed to the Bob Geldoff mantra of "give us your efin money" and so they did, giving him his big break.

Appointments

Cherry picked and character referenced by Peter Keen for the role of performance director of the WCPP.
PK a most decisive judge of character for the qualities required for this very demanding role. That of improper background checks on spurious qualifications and the employment of those lacking in any moral scruples (pre CBR checks).

Recruiting process WCPP coaching staff.

Like his predicessor a thorough investigator doing all the necessary background checks.

Head coach Shane Sutton (currently removed from position amid Brailsfords Zero tolerance approach to doping)

Mr Jan Van Eijden (suspended from the German sprint team for doping infringements - that duly ended his career back in the late 1990's to free him up for a coaching career as sprint tactics advisor). Now has a certificate that proves his naturally high levels of haematocrit of over 50%?
Even this being the case, I'm sure he was not employed for his charming looks, good grasp of the English language and his pretentious English accent - to adhere him to the British public.

Psychologist Steve Peters ideal employee for the purpose of indoctrination into the cult of winning (talks about putting sh*t into boxes and revealing your inner chimp). Puts a new spin on Darwinism. qwack! Advice...don't allow this man anywhere near your mind.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&...vpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_81987ov4wf_e


Growth on the job

Secrets of his success in his own words..."If you look at your own performance and think, 'Am I happy with that? Is that the best ride I could have done?' And the answer's yes, then you can look at everybody else and see if they went faster. That's how I look at it."

Acheived an accreditation in stating the bleeding obvious.

"But you've got to be a realist. It is a problem, the sport has got this reputation based on what's happened in the past, but you've got to stick to your guns and show that you can do it clean, and give everybody hope and belief that if you do things cleverly, if you do things with a brain, and you get behind athletes and support them you can achieve fantastic results."

The self actualisation process. You can dominate the entire World for ten years if you could only hope and put your mind to it (hope in what...faries or Steve Peter's chimps).

"When I started cycling, 25 years ago, people looked at me, when I rode through Wales, as if to say, 'What on earth are you up to?'" says Brailsford. "Now, local Welsh people, from Carnarvon and Llanberis, come up to me with an awareness and an excitement. 'Are we going to do well in the Olympics? Can we win as many golds as we did before?'

The self actualisation process complete. Most unlikely to improve on total World supremacy and domination.

The Promotion

The final chapter culminates in huge financial rewards in the form of a million pound sponsorship deal from BskyB and an honory Knighthood forwarded by James Murdock for services rendered to their totalitarian mogal media empire.

On going ambitions and media relations. Stratagy to defuse bad publicity in the wake of the Armstrong scandel by using ever more rediculous means at their disposal to deflect any comparison with Armstrongs 7 Tour wins to Wiggin single tour win.

Reference links:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-coach-reveals-secrets-to-gbs-success-8005870

.htmlhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/p ... 05870.html

http://www.vg.no/sport/artikkel.php?artid=3055707

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...-over-team-sky-s-zero-tolerance-approach.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Sky

 

[sniper]

Wiggins comments about to be misinterpreted... 3... 2... 1

He's right though, Sky botched that situation bigstyle.

of course he's right. but let's at least agree his comments arrive a bit late(ish).

 

[maltiv]

It was discussed a bit in the T-A thread, so I thought I should bring it here: What effects does Bilharzia have on an athlete's blood passport? Does anyone know? Since it affects one's red blood cells I assume it screws up the values significantly, but I haven't seen any actual research on it.

Anyway, if that's the case, then Froome can essentially dope like it's 99 and blame all the absurd fluctuations on the Bilharzia...

 

[JimmyFingers]

Didn't Brailsford work for Planet X bikes at one point? Or did I dream it?

 

[orbeas]

Sky

From the age of 19 to 23 rode as a professional road cyclist in France.

Can anyone expand on this ??? Does not seem to be any information about the teams involved ???