Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[horsinabout]

in your other persona you accuse DB of running the most sophisticated doping program in cycling and in this persona you accuse him of no originality. Nothing like playing all the angles, but this line is a complete waste of virtual spacetime.

No I think you need to be careful there. I have not accused DB and British cycling of Doping. I have asked the question and have sceptism, this is not the same as an accusation.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Leinders will have done lasting damage to Sky

Undoubtedly.
Mud sticks in this game - even from a distance and this was from close range.

 

[Bexon30]

Undoubtedly.
Mud sticks in this game - even from a distance and this was from close range.

And so it should. I've said before and I will say again in my opinion Dave Brailsford needs to go now. If Sky are serious.
The thing that gets me is the lack of awareness in the British public. This really implicates Sky (Leindeers). Yet hide they can.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I did see some Sky train towards Roubaix, they weren't good enough to capture the one man Jose Tom Taus train...

Two teams in one team, just like the ........ - train...Do your research W, RMO was a very big team, no sh@t!

Please, stop insulting people who do know their cycling history, and, were around to see.

Cheerio.

Oh you've got to love the "I know my cycling history and you don't" gag. If you want a p*ssing competition then bring it on. Fancy putting your self-proclaimed superior knowledge to the test, Fearless?

You might want to learn to read as well. The description in question is "elite" not "big". A perusal of the rmo roster for the Kimmage years might reveal size but it was not over-blessed with elite riders.

 

[horsinabout]

in your other persona you accuse DB of running the most sophisticated doping program in cycling and in this persona you accuse him of no originality. Nothing like playing all the angles, but this line is a complete waste of virtual spacetime.

How would runnig a major doping program be conceived as original? Are you forgetting Armstrong already? Been done before, stop copying from others DB. That man hasn't got an original bone in his body.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Oh you've got to love the "I know my cycling history and you don't" gag. If you want a p*ssing competition then bring it on. Fancy putting your self-proclaimed superior knowledge to the test, Fearless?

You might want to learn to read as well. The description in question is "elite" not "big". A perusal of the rmo roster for the Kimmage years might reveal size but it was not over-blessed with elite riders.

You can do much better Wallace, RMO were a BIG team in the eighties, and, Kimmage was part of it. Fact. They weren't as big as before but those white shirts are still part of cycling history, Thierry Clayverolat is still a hero. Charly Mottet aussi. Etc etc.

And I was not trying to be arrogant but y really have to get the fact straight. One could not get into RMO when one did not have talent, Kimmage had.

Perhaps Darryl Webster can shine some light for you on the talent of Kimmage.

 

[Darryl Webster]

And I was not trying to be arrogant but y really have to get the fact straight. One could not get into RMO when one did not have talent, Kimmage had.

Perhaps Darryl Webster can shine some light for you on the talent of Kimmage.

6th in the World Amateur champs is all the evidence ya need to prove that on his day Paul was a top rider. No one achieved that ( clean) without considerable ability.

 

[coinneach]

How would runnig a major doping program be conceived as original? Are you forgetting Armstrong already? Been done before, stop copying from others DB. That man hasn't got an original bone in his body.

I think I can just about make out what this post is saying....

I , for one, would be very happy to forget Armstrong. His relevance to todays challenges is extremely limited, and I don't think we should be giving him oxygen by pretending what he says is important any more.

As for Brailsford: some folk are never satisfied.....queries about Leinders Rogers & Yates for months on the Clinic (quite rightly so). DB gets rid of them, then its more flak for him.

Its exactly people like Brailsford (and Vaulters) that cycling needs now: Ashenden & Taggart can shout from the sides but that ain't going to have much impact.

 

[The Hitch]

As for Brailsford: some folk are never satisfied.....queries about Leinders Rogers & Yates for months on the Clinic (quite rightly so). DB gets rid of them, then its more flak for him.

Its exactly people like Brailsford (and Vaulters) that cycling needs now: Ashenden & Taggart can shout from the sides but that ain't going to have much impact.

Lance. Passed 200 tests and said he didnt dope. But some people are never satisfied. Its him not people like Lemontre and vaulsh that cycling needs now.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

As for Brailsford: some folk are never satisfied.....queries about Leinders Rogers & Yates for months on the Clinic (quite rightly so). DB gets rid of them, then its more flak for him.

Ministry of Peace, right? 1984?

Rogers was not "got rid of", he left of his own accord.
Leinders was not "got rid of", his contract was simply not renewed.
Yates, et al, yes, they were "got rid of". But they were also originally hired by the same person, so it does not (IMO) add to his list of "things I got right", but merely partly erases a few things from his list of "things I really screwed up".
Sutton is still there, lurking in the background.

 

[coinneach]

Lance. Passed 200 tests and said he didnt dope. But some people are never satisfied. Its him not people like Lemontre and vaulsh that cycling needs now.

Sorry mate: I've had a drink, but I really can't understand your post so will look at it again in the morning and see if its any better.

G'nite

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Oh you've got to love the "I know my cycling history and you don't" gag. If you want a p*ssing competition then bring it on. Fancy putting your self-proclaimed superior knowledge to the test, Fearless?

You might want to learn to read as well. The description in question is "elite" not "big". A perusal of the rmo roster for the Kimmage years might reveal size but it was not over-blessed with elite riders.

Well, since you wish to show your knowledge - then can you answer the post below that query's DBs past?

" Dave Brailsford spent four years as a competitive cyclist in St. Etienne in France chasing his dream of winning the ultimate cycling challenge, the Tour de France before returning to the UK to study for his first degree in Sports Science and Psychology and then went on to study for an MBA "

Which teams ?????

Any race results either in France or even the UK ?

Must have had some to get a pro licence ??

 

[blackcat]

And so it should. I've said before and I will say again in my opinion Dave Brailsford needs to go now. If Sky are serious.
The thing that gets me is the lack of awareness in the British public. This really implicates Sky (Leindeers). Yet hide they can.

have some respect old chap.

he is Sir to you.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

6th in the World Amateur champs is all the evidence ya need to prove that on his day Paul was a top rider. No one achieved that ( clean) without considerable ability.

Thanks Darryl.

 

[horsinabout]

Personally I dislike Brailsford, to me he comes across as smug, patronising and untrustworthy. It's hard to argue he is doing a bad job though given the results (any possible doping matters aside). Personally I don't see what relevance his life before he joined British cycling has to what he is achieving now and it's not something I am especially interested in to be honest.

I disagree with your viewpoint, on a deeper level there are arguments to be made for the way sport is going in this country.

Whether it matters or not what Brailsford did in his previous life is subjective. The truth is we don't know as it is not in the public domain, it could be of value in an argument.

I was trying to get people to think about the rise of cycling beyond the superficial. Appears the main protaganist is Peter Keen who may have a fetish for grooming wannabe performance directors.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Utter, meaningless drivel, shame the ban didn't stick

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You can do much better Wallace, RMO were a BIG team in the eighties, and, Kimmage was part of it. Fact. They weren't as big as before but those white shirts are still part of cycling history, Thierry Clayverolat is still a hero. Charly Mottet aussi. Etc etc.

And I was not trying to be arrogant but y really have to get the fact straight. One could not get into RMO when one did not have talent, Kimmage had.

Perhaps Darryl Webster can shine some light for you on the talent of Kimmage.

Fearless,

I think you might be getting too carried away with your history. Whatever RMO had been in the past, they were not an elite outfit in 1986, the year Kimmage made his debut. Here are their 7 finishers in that Tour:

17th Clav
47th Giles Mas
62nd Bernard Vallet
93rd Regis Simon
118th Andre Chappuis
129th Francis Castaing
130th Paul Kimmage

This is not an elite team. This is a team of strugglers. The final three spent most of their time with no higher aim than beating the time limit.

So my three claims - my only three claims - about Kimmage stand: He never won the Tour, he never "troubled the scorers" (ie never won a pro race) and he never rode for an elite team are all true.

I'm not knocking Kimmage's talent as a rider. He was obviously a very good amateur, but didn't make the grade as a pro, for whatever reason.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Well, since you wish to show your knowledge - then can you answer the post below that query's DBs past?

No. I know a lot of sporting trivia, but this is beyond my limit!

Now here's a question for you, and indeed anyone interested...

Can a team place 4 riders in the top 7 of the final GC of the Tour de France with 2 of the 4 riders concerned doing it clean?

 

[ebandit]

ah.............fetish?

Appears the main protaganist is Peter Keen who may have a fetish for grooming.

is that true?............peter likes horses too..............grooming seems more like too much work for me all that shovelling cak

once at a country fair i did take a shine to the pretty young things in their jodhpurs

but peter did know a thing about sports science.................success which
in it's way helped pave the way to team sky

but what is the merit here pondering if team sky are indeed clean

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

I disagree with your viewpoint, on a deeper level there are arguments to be made for the way sport is going in this country.

Whether it matters or not what Brailsford did in his previous life is subjective. The truth is we don't know as it is not in the public domain, it could be of value in an argument.

I was trying to get people to think about the rise of cycling beyond the superficial. Appears the main protaganist is Peter Keen who may have a fetish for grooming.

What do you think he might have been up to? He left university in around 1990 and started with Sky in 1996 so I am assuming the clinic isn't far away from reaching the conclusion that between these dates he was instrumental in introducing EPO doping in cycling. The dates fit, the BSC would have helped and the massive secrecy about his whereabouts in these years certainly suggests he has something to hide.

 

[RownhamHill]

What do you think he might have been up to? He left university in around 1990 and started with Sky in 1996 so I am assuming the clinic isn't far away from reaching the conclusion that between these dates he was instrumental in introducing EPO doping in cycling. The dates fit, the BSC would have helped and the massive secrecy about his whereabouts in these years certainly suggests he has something to hide.

Except it was a BA, not a BSC, wasn't it. . . dun, der dun dun dummm!

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Except it was a BA, not a BSC, wasn't it. . . dun, der dun dun dummm!

No idea to be honest, just going by what I remember reading here. He would certainly know less about doping the entire peloton in the mid 90s if he had a BA though.

 

[JimmyFingers]

What do you think he might have been up to? He left university in around 1990 and started with Sky in 1996 so I am assuming the clinic isn't far away from reaching the conclusion that between these dates he was instrumental in introducing EPO doping in cycling. The dates fit, the BSC would have helped and the massive secrecy about his whereabouts in these years certainly suggests he has something to hide.

I have also heard from a reliable source he is a clone of Hitler. That reliable source being Invisible Clive

 

[pmcg76]

Fearless,

I think you might be getting too carried away with your history. Whatever RMO had been in the past, they were not an elite outfit in 1986, the year Kimmage made his debut. Here are their 7 finishers in that Tour:

17th Clav
47th Giles Mas
62nd Bernard Vallet
93rd Regis Simon
118th Andre Chappuis
129th Francis Castaing
130th Paul Kimmage

This is not an elite team. This is a team of strugglers. The final three spent most of their time with no higher aim than beating the time limit.

So my three claims - my only three claims - about Kimmage stand: He never won the Tour, he never "troubled the scorers" (ie never won a pro race) and he never rode for an elite team are all true.

I'm not knocking Kimmage's talent as a rider. He was obviously a very good amateur, but didn't make the grade as a pro, for whatever reason.

Well I think there was a saying that if you made it past your first contract, then you had achieved something as a pro. Most rider's didn't make it past their first contract.

I agree that RMO were not a top team when they first formed but also interested to hear what you consider as elite. I would think a team that rode the Tour every year it existed would be considered an elite team.

RMO might have been towards the bottom end of the elite list but they were in that category as regular Tour participants. Don't forget that Kimmage moved to Fagor and was also picked for their Tour team. I think Fagor would fall into the elite category as well.

I think it is clear in Rough Ride that Kimmage didn't have the mental toughness to survive in pro-cycling. Everything seemed to get him down and he seemed to lack in self-confidence and was always looking for a way-out.

Not that it really matter's but if we are comparing the cycling career's of Bralisford and Kimmage, then clearly Kimmage is several rungs above Bralisford and even Shane Sutton for that matter.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I agree that RMO were not a top team when they first formed but also interested to hear what you consider as elite.

Not that it really matter's but if we are comparing the cycling career's of Bralisford and Kimmage, then clearly Kimmage is several rungs above Bralisford and even Shane Sutton for that matter.

Definition of elite? This is obviously subjective, but in my view, this would be a team that - on targeted major races - is expected to be competing for the overall title or aiming for a significant number of stage wins, not hoping for a lucky break. I guess this is quite a narrow definition, but pro sport is not school sports day, so accolades have to be earned!

Re Kimmage vs Brailsford as riders, this is an obvious "no brainer" and unfortunate proof that being good at sport isn't necessarily going to make you happy.