Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Libertine Seguros]

I feel this thread has descended into some sort of parallel universe.

Can anyone actually remember how the Tour went in 2012?
For Sky?
For Garmin??

Maybe Sky didn't start off with a tour winning team: remember Nibali regretting now at turning them down in 09?
Its something you develop over time.
Wiggins made his choice and so did Braisford.
Turns out they were both right, but hey ho, they could have been wrong.
Big deal: get over it

Nibali wouldn't have won a GT if he went to Sky in 2009. He would have got ill at the 2010 Vuelta, rode with little support at the Giro perhaps, been beaten by Contador just as comprehensively in the 2011 Giro and ever since would have been working for Wiggins.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think it would be a struggle to do structured, progressive interval training within a chaotic environment of a race wouldn't it? Difficult to do structured work and rest periods within a fast moving peleton? Having the control to do that type of workout outside of a race is surely the best way to do your intervals. But if you do have examples of intervals you can do within a race or pros that do this type of workout while racing I would be genuinely interested to know. (might help me improve my pitiful race speed )

Have you heard of specificity? And fartlek training?

Some of the best training intervals are the ones where you don't get to recover. Coz in a race, noone is going to wait and let you recover.

And I cannot accept people are training harder than they race.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Can anyone remember how the Giro went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

Good point well made

[edit] although Sky didn't go the 2012 Giro to win it, they wanted the red jersey for Cav

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Can anyone remember how the Giro went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

Can anyone remember how the teams Anti-doping policies went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Can anyone remember how the Giro went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

Can anyone remember how the teams Anti-doping policies went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

 

[mastersracer]

I think it would be a struggle to do structured, progressive interval training within a chaotic environment of a race wouldn't it? Difficult to do structured work and rest periods within a fast moving peleton? Having the control to do that type of workout outside of a race is surely the best way to do your intervals. But if you do have examples of intervals you can do within a race or pros that do this type of workout while racing I would be genuinely interested to know. (might help me improve my pitiful race speed )

for a start, have a look at cycling pre-1999ish.

If you want to study a paper, have a look at Schumacher & Mueller on the German team pursuit world record, where training was basically endurance tempo structured training interspersed with stage racing.

 

[JimmyFingers]

And I cannot accept people are training harder than they race.

I think that's a very interesting topic. Presumably the difference between racing and training is control, and predictability. Also there is the extra factor of adrenaline, which makes the physiological conditions of training and racing very different.

I would imagine training brings greater endurance and condition, while racing garners experience, nous and a greater physical exam.

 

[MatParker117]

Can anyone remember how the Giro went in 2012?
For Sky??
For Garmin?

Sky did pick up a jersey at the giro and were unlucky not to win another.

 

[martinvickers]

thanks for that post, very useful despite you not being able to respond to the schooling you recieved. But please, do keep us informed every time you have not read something. Love the self-loving.

Sorry, and you are?

Actually, never mind. Life's too short.

[ignore]

 

[martinvickers]

So if wiggins was not part of the plan how on earth did sky hope to win the tour with a British rider by 2014?

I mean bailsford is supposed to be this intelligent top professional. Top ds in the world.

1. Says who?
2. Brailsford's not a DS at all, never mind top one in world, is he? I thought he had more CEO -ish role

Yet unless doping is involved how on earth did he expect to find a gt winner? Tdf winners are 1 in a million. What on earth made him.think he could find someone who could even finish top 20? Let alone in such a shot time limit

Well, if he get's a team into the tour at all - he shortens his odds pretty significantly - since a million people don't ride the tour each year. 1 in a million seems a bullhooey statistic. There isn't even close to 1 million pro riders in the world surely?

 

[martinvickers]

I'm with Dr Maserati on this, Im afraid Jimmy. No doubt...2010 Garmin a stronger GT team than 2010 Sky.

Not to be funny or anything - but has it ever crossed any of your minds that Garmin may well have been a better bet to win a GT than Sky in 2012 - but NOT necessarily to win it with Wiggins?

See it this way, for example - The guy's 29, and has just 'fluked' a fourth place when he was really there as a superdom for christian.

Maybe he makes the calculation that the chances of HIM winning a GC were better with Sky, even if the Garmin team were more likely to win one first - after all, the Sky team was going to be explicitly based around him, as promised by a guys he's worked with for a decade.

Look again at that Garmin team - and remember JV's irritation with his friendship with Armstrong - how long would he have stayed leader there? Personally, I would strongly argue that while Garmin were a stronger team - Wiggins' personal best chance was not necessarily there, but a quasi-national team built around him instead.

just a thought, while you all kick off.

 

[The Hitch]

]Well, if he get's a team into the tour at all - he shortens his odds pretty significantly - since a million people don't ride the tour each year. 1 in a million seems a bullhooey statistic. There isn't even close to 1 million pro riders in the world surely

1 in a million is a very common phrase. Doesnt litteraly mean 1 in a million. And even if it did, I'm talking about natural talent. 1 in a million people have the talent to win the tour even if most of them never touch a bike.

You are like the guy - babbage, who upon reading Tennyson's line "every moment dies a man every moment one is born" wrote in complaining that the world population growth rate was not 0.

 

[veganrob]

And I cannot accept people are training harder than they race.

Probably because you actually ride a bike.

 

[workingclasshero]

Sorry, and you are?

Actually, never mind. Life's too short.

[ignore]

the irish, such jolly people. kinell you're a poor poster mate. Why do you keep banging on about stuff you clearly don't know a thing about? Leave the Clinic to the big boys now, ok pet?

 

[martinvickers]

1 in a million is a very common phrase. Doesnt litteraly mean 1 in a million. And even if it did, I'm talking about natural talent. 1 in a million people have the talent to win the tour even if most of them never touch a bike.

You are like the guy - babbage, who upon reading Tennyson's line "every moment dies a man every moment one is born" wrote in complaining that the world population growth rate was not 0.

Of course, Babbage was right.

The thing is, you weren't writing poetry, you were making an argument. and it's perfectly legit to point out when someones made a fallacious argument.

 

[xcleigh]

Have you heard of specificity? And fartlek training?

Some of the best training intervals are the ones where you don't get to recover. Coz in a race, noone is going to wait and let you recover.

And I cannot accept people are training harder than they race.

I actually do both, but are very different in their aims in my opinion. Specific efforts with specific recoveries is not possible to do in an organic fast moving race situation. Fartlek training as you know is 'race play', specifically where you mimic racing (during training) so basically is very similar to racing.

And if you don't think you can train harder than you can race then your training obviously isn't hard enough, most of the most unpleasant times on a bike for me has been during very specific interval sessions. And it also depends on how you quantify harder.

 

[Eshnar]

workingclasshero your last post was definitely poor.
deleted.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

And I cannot accept people are training harder than they race.

This depends on the nature of the race. If you're a leader/contender doing a 1 week stage race that isn't particularly hilly (typically early season stuff) then you'll be in the bunch most of the time, coasting at 200 watts. There will be higher efforts required on the climbs and in any TTs, but these don't comprise a great proportion of the duration of a typical early season stage race. Thus, a leader/contender type would spend the week mainly pootling along at 200 watts, which isn't wasted training effort, but maybe isn't an effective use of time.

Conversely, a week-long training camp would typically involve hill climbs, intervals turbo sessions etc. involving significantly higher power outputs, even if lower mileages than the stage race.

Thus, training harder than racing is very easily come by.

I don't think anyone is implying that all training is harder than racing. Decisive TTs in major races, the final MTF in the Tour and Paris Roubaix are all examples of the type of race where you'd expect to have to ask questions of yourself. Hopefully the training will provide positive answers!

 

[kingsouth]

Its not just about training harder, but smarter. If you're training for the classics a 5 or 6 day block might of work might not be the best structure (a lot of sky/BC training is based on 3 day blocks). In a stage race you have no control over terrain or distances and the top guys may need to put in an extra hour after some stages which may not be practical with transfers. You may want to do two hilly days back to back when the race your riding has the hilly days interspersed with sprint stages.

 

[workingclasshero]

workingclasshero your last post was definitely poor.
deleted.

thought it was top notch myself, what bit didn't you like

 

[coinneach]

And I cannot accept people are training harder than they race.

Well, dear friend, I think this exactly the problem you have with Sky. They do things differently, and it seems to work.

The main benefit of training is its controllability: racing can often not be controlled...may be harder, may be easier.

If you watch the CN video interview with Kerrison, he talks about actually making the races controlled by doing them the same was they have trained for. So you arrive at the finish having done what you have trained for and set out to do. (BTW Kerrison also more or less dismisses "marginal gains")

It might not win you the race, but at least you can say you did your best.

And that type of fanatical control is absaloutly at the centre of British Cycling (for good or bad).

I know it goes against most of the training guides you have read, but can you at least accept that ever so often someone comes up with a development which challanges orthodox methods? (I'm sure fartlec was that when it first came out)

BTW I know I'll get jumped on but I do recall that phrase from Armstrong, and he did train harder than he raced (partly because it was easier for him to dope while training, and only top up during races)

 

[JimmyFingers]

Amusing given the current discussion that Sky aren't sending their classics team to either P-N ot T-A and instead are off to Mt Teide for a training camp to prepare for Milan-San Remo

I lolled

 

[Dear Wiggo]

And if you don't think you can train harder than you can race then your training obviously isn't hard enough, most of the most unpleasant times on a bike for me has been during very specific interval sessions. And it also depends on how you quantify harder.

Michael Rogers hit PB power values... in a race.

When I say "harder" I mean "better power figures". ie using a power meter.

If you are hitting better power figures in training than racing then you had better be winning or getting some serious help with tactics.

If Bradley Wiggins is hitting physiological limits in racing but going harder in training, then his training numbers are above physiological limits.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If you watch the CN video interview with Kerrison, he talks about actually making the races controlled by doing them the same was they have trained for. So you arrive at the finish having done what you have trained for and set out to do. (BTW Kerrison also more or less dismisses "marginal gains")

Logically, if they finish the race the way they trained, but they trained harder than the raced, then ... how does this even make sense? Are you saying noone else can match them in the race so they are cruising it?

At physiological limits?

 

[coinneach]

thought it was top notch myself, what bit didn't you like

I recall one that I thought was a bit off, but can't remember the details.

I kinda wish we got a PM to tell us our posts have been deleted (and why)

I do occasionally look back to see if there's been a response to my post, only not to be able to find it!