Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[xcleigh]

Michael Rogers hit PB power values... in a race.

When I say "harder" I mean "better power figures". ie using a power meter.

If you are hitting better power figures in training than racing then you had better be winning or getting some serious help with tactics.

If Bradley Wiggins is hitting physiological limits in racing but going harder in training, then his training numbers are above physiological limits.

Yes that is logical. But hitting power numbers is only one component of what could make training harder. So they may be hitting exactly the same numbers in training and racing but in training repeat over many many intervals which then effectively makes the training 'harder' than a race. They may only need to hit the same number on fewer occassions while racing as they'll be sat in the pack for a larger proportion of time. The figures don't need to be better in training to make the training harder.

 

[coinneach]

Logically, if they finish the race the way they trained, but they trained harder than the raced, then ... how does this even make sense? Are you saying noone else can match them in the race so they are cruising it?

At physiological limits?

Well, whether people can match them is actually something they can't control, all they can do is their best, which for a 3 week race means not knackering yourself on any one day. If you've done it before in training and then do it in competition, it feels easier (adrenaline??)

On 2 out of 3 grand tours last year they were well beaten; their success at Tour de France was at least as much down to the paucity of competition in '12.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

If you are hitting better power figures in training than racing then you had better be winning or getting some serious help with tactics.

Last time I checked, Wiggo won pretty much everything he entered last year. If you're not that good, then I would imagine that racing is generally harder than training, simply in trying to keep up. This is undoubtedly my experience on club runs, which are race-type simulations sometimes.

The notable exception was the Olympic RR, where (according to his recent book) he rode harder than in any other race in 2012.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Last time I checked, Wiggo won pretty much everything he entered last year. If you're not that good, then I would imagine that racing is generally harder than training, simply in trying to keep up. This is undoubtedly my experience on club runs, which are race-type simulations sometimes.

The notable exception was the Olympic RR, where (according to his recent book) he rode harder than in any other race in 2012.

Yeah I don't understand how you can write this ^^^ and then say, "they train harder than they race".

Makes no sense to me at all. Happy to agree to disagree.

 

[workingclasshero]

I recall one that I thought was a bit off, but can't remember the details.

I kinda wish we got a PM to tell us our posts have been deleted (and why)

I do occasionally look back to see if there's been a response to my post, only not to be able to find it!

i can't remember it in detail myself, so will just have to accept that there is a chance something may have been too harsh? (although i doubt it as i am in a good mood today)
i guess it would be a lot of work for them to send pm's every time they delete a post as I guess the two of us aren't the only ones it happens to.

 

[del1962]

Michael Rogers hit PB power values... in a race.

When I say "harder" I mean "better power figures". ie using a power meter.

If you are hitting better power figures in training than racing then you had better be winning or getting some serious help with tactics.

If Bradley Wiggins is hitting physiological limits in racing but going harder in training, then his training numbers are above physiological limits.

He would not be hiting his limits on a flat stage of a race.

I don't think you fully understand the benefits of controlled interval training, in fact hish intensity for short period training is some of the best possible, and this is not useful if you are racing all the time.

The times in a stage race when you hit your limits would be on a mountain top finish and during the timetrial, unless you are in a break

 

[Dear Wiggo]

On 2 out of 3 grand tours last year they were well beaten; their success at Tour de France was at least as much down to the paucity of competition in '12.

I lol for the team that can read Ivan Basso saying, "I was sitting on holding the wheel at 420 watts" and have their fans equate this to "paucity of competition".

Have to agree to disagree again.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well, whether people can match them is actually something they can't control, all they can do is their best, which for a 3 week race means not knackering yourself on any one day. If you've done it before in training and then do it in competition, it feels easier (adrenaline??)

And this is something I have said previously: Wiggins was not stressed. All these power figures bandied around as "physiologically possible without doping" do not tell the full story - coz Wiggins was never pushed. He could have gone harder, faster, stronger.

So ok, yes. Criss cross what I said above out. Start again.

Maybe Wiggins power figures were higher in training than in racing - in the mountain, etc stages. I mean. He was pedaling at 100rpm up hills left and right. That ain't normal.

Normal people don't train harder than they race, how about that? Because there's always someone stronger, or smarter, or with better support, and you have to dig damn deep to stay on top. And then those sweet, sweet power PBs kick in, from 10 seconds all the way up to 3 hours. Such a delicious sight when you upload data later. Sigh.

People who are so far above everyone else that noone can touch them - liek Brad + Sky in 2012 - yes ok, they probably do train harder than they race. Because noone is able to push them in the race. Someone attacks but they can't sustain the attack - their domestiques (ffs) are able to pull it back with apparent ease.

Brad can just muck about till Nibali is isolated, let Froome bring him back, then nail him, dropping him like week old sandwiches. Where's the stress? There isn't any.

The autobusser is now so hard core noone can touch him. And he wasn't even trying. Training was harder.

Something don't smell right again.

 

[JimmyFingers]

And this is something I have said previously: Wiggins was not stressed. All these power figures bandied around as "physiologically possible without doping" do not tell the full story - coz Wiggins was never pushed. He could have gone harder, faster, stronger.

What exactly is your source for that statement? So you're stating Wiggins never rode hard during the TdF or throughout the season? Seems a very powerful statement that would need to be backed up by more than anecdotal evidence.

 

[peterst6906]

What exactly is your source for that statement? So you're stating Wiggins never rode hard during the TdF or throughout the season? Seems a very powerful statement that would need to be backed up by more than anecdotal evidence.

Yeah, I wonder what Chris Froome would say to that assertion.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

What exactly is your source for that statement? So you're stating Wiggins never rode hard during the TdF or throughout the season? Seems a very powerful statement that would need to be backed up by more than anecdotal evidence.

When Froome, Nibali and the others dropped him on La Toussuire he was obviously just playing possum.

 

[JimmyFingers]

When Froome, Nibali and the others dropped him on La Toussuire he was obviously just playing possum.

Wiggins, the only TdF winner to have soft-pedaled his entire way around

 

[xcleigh]

And he wasn't even trying. Something don't smell right again.

I didn't speak to Brad actually and he didn't tell me he was only going at 50%, was so easy! But he did smell lovely, a faint aroma of rose petal.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I didn't speak to Brad actually and he didn't tell me he was only going at 50%, was so easy! But he did smell lovely, a faint aroma of rose petal.

Too late. He won everything he wanted in 2012, and was training harder than he raced. Therefore his racing was easy. QED!

 

[Ferminal]

Wiggins, like Nibali looked to be at limit on most of the climbs although maybe benefited from some Liquigas faux-tempo on the final day.

Froome we cannot say.

 

[xcleigh]

Too late. He won everything he wanted in 2012, and was training harder than he raced. Therefore his racing was easy. QED!

Racing is rarely easy but when you've done repeated efforts in training that match or exceed the effort (no I don't mean watts) you find yourself having to do in a race then the racing feels easier, because you've done it in training (and often done it repeatedly as part of a structered interval session). It's certainly what I've found when I've done it, and I'm only a Normal rider.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wiggins, like Nibali looked to be at limit on most of the climbs although maybe benefited from some Liquigas faux-tempo on the final day.

Froome we cannot say.

Are you saying he raced harder than he trained?

I think we need a poll...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Racing is rarely easy but when you've done repeated efforts in training that match or exceed the effort (no I don't mean watts) you find yourself having to do in a race then the racing feels easier, because you've done it in training (and often done it repeatedly as part of a structered interval session). It's certainly what I've found when I've done it, and I'm only a Normal rider.

If your training is harder than you racing you must be winning, or untouchable.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What exactly is your source for that statement? So you're stating Wiggins never rode hard during the TdF or throughout the season? Seems a very powerful statement that would need to be backed up by more than anecdotal evidence.

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/entert...ey-wiggins-real-tour-de-france-winner/viewall

''STAGE FOUR
Tear up the rule book
"It would be easy when we start the new season to say, 'Let's do what we did last year.' But those are the times when you have to look at what you can do better and go forward. In 2012, we didn't do what cyclists were supposed to do. We raced less, trained more, and rather than peaking for the Tour de France, I was riding at 96-97 per cent of what I was capable of for the whole season. I was able to win the Paris-Nice in March, the Tour de Romandie in April, and the Critérium du Dauphiné in June and still be on form for the Tour and the Olympics."

 

[JimmyFingers]

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/entert...ey-wiggins-real-tour-de-france-winner/viewall

''STAGE FOUR
Tear up the rule book
"It would be easy when we start the new season to say, 'Let's do what we did last year.' But those are the times when you have to look at what you can do better and go forward. In 2012, we didn't do what cyclists were supposed to do. We raced less, trained more, and rather than peaking for the Tour de France, I was riding at 96-97 per cent of what I was capable of for the whole season. I was able to win the Paris-Nice in March, the Tour de Romandie in April, and the Critérium du Dauphiné in June and still be on form for the Tour and the Olympics."

That's a red herring: he was talking where he was in terms of fitness and form. Instead of using early season racing to build form and peak for the GT, as is usual practise, he trained hard from November 11 onwards and went into the season near his peak and then maintained that form through to the Olympics. That's not saying he wasn't racing hard when he did race.

As for training vs racing, I don't know quite frankly, but as sure as hell Wiggins was frequently on the limit throughout the season and certainly during the TdF. If he hadn't had Froome and his other lieutenants he would have got mullered in the mountains once isolated.

 

[The Hitch]

Of course, Babbage was right.

The thing is, you weren't writing poetry, you were making an argument. and it's perfectly legit to point out when someones made a fallacious argument.

What was fallacious about it.? The fact that you don't understand or have never come across the term "one in a million" and can't work out its obvious meaning, is your problem not mine.
"One in a million" means - very rare, hard to find.

I honestly don't see what you find so outrageous about the fact that someone thinks tour de France winners are very rare and hard to.find.

 

[xcleigh]

If your training is harder than you racing you must be winning, or untouchable.

Why? Is my training harder than my competitors training? Just out of interest what training are they doing that means they beat me? I said MY training is harder than my racing. My competitors may be training better, smarter, more than I am. You just don't understand the concept, that's fine, I won't hold it against you.

 

[SundayRider]

If your training is harder than you racing you must be winning, or untouchable.

This, anyone who has raced any endurance events at any level will agree too.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

This, anyone who has raced any endurance events at any level will agree too.

I'd have to agree with this. Winning never hurts as much as losing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Why? Is my training harder than my competitors training? Just out of interest what training are they doing that means they beat me? I said MY training is harder than my racing. My competitors may be training better, smarter, more than I am. You just don't understand the concept, that's fine, I won't hold it against you.

Really?

If you turn up to race and pootle, and get dropped, then yes, your training will be harder than your racing. But for me that's not racing. That's a waste of time.

Racing is getting to the end and having a sprint, in the front bunch.

And I always get power PBs in racing vs training.

But if you seriously race, with all your heart, and sprint for the win at the end, and it's easier than what you do in training, then yes, you should be winning. Or it makes no sense at all.