Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[acoggan]

Does Wiggins have a similar debilitating illness to Boardman.

Boardman's low testosterone problem has always reminded me of Lemond's lead poisoning/mitochondrial myopathy theory.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Boardman's low testosterone problem has always reminded me of Lemond's lead poisoning/mitochondrial myopathy theory.

Can you expand on that?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Boardman's low testosterone problem has always reminded me of Lemond's lead poisoning/mitochondrial myopathy theory.

Funny choice of word or did I read it too negatively?

There is nothing in Chris Boardmans road stage racing palmares or GT performances to suggest he could become a GC rider....

Short stage races, just like Tony Martin, Cancellara, McGee, Wiggins. Ooops, wait.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Other sources of resistance (i.e., rolling, bearing friction, drivetrain friction) increase less rapidly as a function of speed. Thus, if you simply fit a power function to the power-vs.-speed relationship, you get a "blurred" exponent of 2.6-2.8 (depending on the data set and range of speeds it entails).

Just the job. Thanks.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

All of this scientific stuff is too complicated for me. I much preferred this thread when it was all about Wiggo's hairstyle and dress sense.

 

[acoggan]

Can you expand on that?

Sure. In both cases, you have athletes casting about for an explanation as to why they can't perform at the level they used to (Lemond) and/or the level they desire (Boardman, in GTs). Also in both cases, a medical explanation is offered that is really much more of a speculative hypothesis than an established fact.

 

[acoggan]

Note the apparently rapid improvement between the 1st two measurement points. Also note that over the period which Wiggins' power data are available (i.e., from age ~25 on), Armstrong's efficiency apparently improved by only 1% (in absolute terms). So yes, if you fit a mathematical function to Armstrong's data then used it to predict how much Wiggins' efficiency might have improved from 2004 on, the resulting improvement could easily be lost in the "noise" surrounding self-reported power data.

Finally, note that there's no reason to expect every individual to follow precisely the same developmental time course, or even display precisely the same adaptations. I was simply replying to your request for speculation by proffering one of many possible explanations. Indeed, it is because we don't have a really good understanding of exactly how an elite athlete achieves that status that Coyle's paper on Armstrong was intriguing in the first place.

While I'm expanding on things: the human power-duration relationship is rather complex, and while the primary effect of endurance training is to "lift" the curve over durations longer than a few minutes, the same adaptations tend to "flatten" it as well. Morever, due to the very shallow slope of the terminal decay in power as a function of time, only a very small "lift" will markedly increase the duration that a particular power can be sustained (e.g., in my own case a 4% increase in FTP would mean that I could sustain my previous, lower power at FTP 21% longer). By improving fatigue resistance during longer races (or back-to-back days), it is possible that such a change in Wiggins' power-duration relationship (i.e., a "flattening", perhaps brought about by changes in how he trains) contributes to his improved ability to contend on GC, despite no apparent increase in his TT power measured over shorter durations.

 

[sittingbison]

Sure. In both cases, you have athletes casting about for an explanation as to why they can't perform at the level they used to (Lemond) and/or the level they desire (Boardman, in GTs). Also in both cases, a medical explanation is offered that is really much more of a speculative hypothesis than an established fact.

Aaaarrrggghhh I get it now, just like the bilharzia theory

 

[JimmyFingers]

Aaaarrrggghhh I get it now, just like the bilharzia theory

And the virus that ravaged BMC last season, Hushovd, Evans and Gilbert all seemingly succumbing, although Gilbert did rally towards the end of the season....

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Sure. In both cases, you have athletes casting about for an explanation as to why they can't perform at the level they used to (Lemond) and/or the level they desire (Boardman, in GTs). Also in both cases, a medical explanation is offered that is really much more of a speculative hypothesis than an established fact.

So, in fact, you, Andy Coggan, are saying Adrie van Diemen, a well respected man in the pro peloton, is a liar? You know, the guy who confronted Conconi on his BS?

And I can back up on this, can you?

Or are you now also a medical man, not just a scientist, you know, when it suits you?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

So, in fact, you, Andy Coggan, are saying Adrie van Diemen, a well respected man in the pro peloton, is a liar? You know, the guy who confronted Conconi on his BS?

And I can back up on this, can you?

Or are you now also a medical man, not just a scientist, you know, when it suits you?

I think in terms of Boardman, the nature of his ailment re GT performance can only be speculative.

He had an observed weakness in terms of recover and also a very real medical condition. Sufficiently real that medical specialists prescribed him steroids, but in such doses as to only restore him to "normal" levels of recovery that one would expect without his medical condition.

The theory was that so medicated, he might be able to compete more effectively in GTs, replicating some excellent 1 week stage race performances.

Obviously, as the UCI wouldn't authorise him to compete under the effects of medication, the theory could not be tested.

 

[mastersracer]

So, in fact, you, Andy Coggan, are saying Adrie van Diemen, a well respected man in the pro peloton, is a liar? You know, the guy who confronted Conconi on his BS?

And I can back up on this, can you?

Or are you now also a medical man, not just a scientist, you know, when it suits you?

and Lemond's mitochondrial myopathy theory was met with much skepticism in the medical community - there was a series of letters in the New England Journal of Medicine about it. I believe even Lemond has backed off from this and now attributes his struggles to the growing use of EPO in the peloton and chronic overtraining. Having the 'pleasure' of training with Lemond in the early 90s a few times, I think the latter is entirely plausible....

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think acoggan is suggesting that the reason Wiggins is now able to compete at the level he is, is because of the relative performance drop in the peloton, as a result of the bio passport etc.

This is perfectly reasonable and may go some way to explaining things, however the fact that so few riders have undergone transformations of their capabilities to the same level as Wiggins (and even more so Froome) would suggest that either there are other (kosher or non-kosher) factors at play, or that apart from these select few improvers (most of whom happen to ride for the same team) everybody else in the péloton was doping and everybody else stopped at the same time, which seems unfeasible to me, especially as there wasn't a gradual upswing in general results, rather a sudden shift, like pressing the "climber" button. Chris Froome's mountain riding changed not as a gradual shift as the péloton got cleaner, not as a slow improvement through the ranks as more and more riders who had been doping ceased to do so and dropped behind the more talented Froome, but instead, more in the same way as when Sonic the Hedgehog jumped on a TV that contained speed-sneakers.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

All of this scientific stuff is too complicated for me. I much preferred this thread when it was all about Wiggo's hairstyle and dress sense.

Can you expand on that?

 

[Benotti69]

Seen a picture of Joe Dombrowski.

gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/joe-dombrowski-of-the-usa-and-sky-procycling-arrives-for-news-photo/161321913

He looks like he just came from Belsen!!!!!!!!

 

[acoggan]

I think in terms of Boardman, the nature of his ailment re GT performance can only be speculative.

He had an observed weakness in terms of recover and also a very real medical condition. Sufficiently real that medical specialists prescribed him steroids, but in such doses as to only restore him to "normal" levels of recovery that one would expect without his medical condition.

The theory was that so medicated, he might be able to compete more effectively in GTs, replicating some excellent 1 week stage race performances.

Obviously, as the UCI wouldn't authorise him to compete under the effects of medication, the theory could not be tested.

You also have to ask, what makes Boardman's apparent situation different from anyone else's, such that you'd consider it a disease rather than normal physiology?

 

[acoggan]

So, in fact, you, Andy Coggan, are saying Adrie van Diemen, a well respected man in the pro peloton, is a liar? You know, the guy who confronted Conconi on his BS?

And I can back up on this, can you?

Or are you now also a medical man, not just a scientist, you know, when it suits you?

Not knowing what van Diemen might have said/written, I can't say. What can be said is that Lemond's mitochondrial myopathy theory is/was just that: a theory (and a poorly-supported one at that).

 

[xcleigh]

Seen a picture of Joe Dombrowski.

gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/joe-dombrowski-of-the-usa-and-sky-procycling-arrives-for-news-photo/161321913

He looks like he just came from Belsen!!!!!!!!

I have to say looks pretty fit and healthy to me. Same body type as me and I've been pretty much 60kgs, skinny as a rake since I was 16. Two decades later I'm still skinny as a rake and 60kgs. I expect Joe Dombrowski is much the same. Pesky genes

 

[acoggan]

and Lemond's mitochondrial myopathy theory was met with much skepticism in the medical community - there was a series of letters in the New England Journal of Medicine about it.

Thanks for the reminder:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199601253340415

 

[acoggan]

Aaaarrrggghhh I get it now, just like the bilharzia theory

Ha! I hadn't thought of that parallel.

 

[DirtyWorks]

however the fact that so few riders have undergone transformations of their capabilities to the same level as Wiggins (and even more so Froome) would suggest that either there are other (kosher or non-kosher) factors at play,

Everything you need to know is right here:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...irst-nine-of-Armstrongs-38-blood-results.aspx

Suspicious results weren't routed out of the APMU.

On paper, the bio-passport would work if WADA had authority to target athletes and open cases. But, they don't. Until there is an anti-doping system that actually catches dopers, much of this discussion is moot.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Indeed, it is because we don't have a really good understanding of exactly how an elite athlete achieves that status that Coyle's paper on Armstrong was intriguing in the first place.

Coyle's Armstrong work has to be thrown out.

Armstrong is representative of dopers, that's all. Depending on where Wonderboy was on a doping cycle, the results would vary. Nevermind the unavoidable fact he was doping for his entire cycling career.

It is impossible to replicate/infer/refer to Wonderboy data to a non-doping athlete population. That work still hasn't been sufficiently discredited.

 

[andy1234]

You also have to ask, what makes Boardman's apparent situation different from anyone else's, such that you'd consider it a disease rather than normal physiology?

Normal physiology is based on typical biological measurements. In Boardmans case, measurement of testosterone levels.
Levels considerably below normal would be considered a disease for anyone, athlete or otherwise.

The underlying testosterone deficiency, was discovered when he was diagnosed with osteopenia, as it can be an underlying cause of the condition in men.

His retirement was accelerated by the need for treatment, which was not permitted by the UCI, when a TUE was requested.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Does anyone know why Edvald Boasson Hagen won't be joining the other Sky boys in Tenerife?*

*That's if we're to believe Sky's site which has him down as riding Paris-Nice instead.

I'll remind readers that EBH scored a ''0'' on the UCI's suspicion rating index and is widely recognised as a very (naturally) gifted athlete.

Agreed on Eddie.

It seems that the Sky site has been changed, Boswell is doing P-N, and Eddie is going to Tenerife, after all.

So, either...

a. That nasty Mr Brailsford has converted Eddie to the dark side.
b. Leinders/Kerrison/Ferrari/whoever it is these days who injects drugs into the veins of young men, will only be getting the syringes out when Eddie's tucked up in bed.
c. Brailsford has realised that the Clinic 12 are onto him and has quickly changed his plans, and bought Eddie a ticket to Mt. Teide, and now has to work out what the hell he's going to do when he gets there with the other boys.
d. There's actually nothing dodgy going on in Tenerife.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think it's more that Brailsford has, two decades on, finally figured out the secret to taking funk to a whole new level.

The secret is to make the rhythm the bass, and the bass into the treble.