Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

I think you need to make a point here, because my reference was to the constant sarcasm directed at Sky for citing warm downs as one of their marginal gains, because 'professions' all warm down, cyclists have done it for years and even kiddiewinks at school doing it, yet here is JV saying a mere 10% of the peloton does.

Unless you're looking for some misdirection to detract from this, which flies in the face of oft-employed anti-Sky mantra here.

I thought JV saying he wasn't a DS? Just team manager?

So JV sees all this stuff from his EMBA classroom?

LOL!

 

[peloton]

Kinda funny that.

Also wasn't it mr hog who was saying Froome would win everything etc etc etc, and then Froome totally blew T-A.

So Froome is this mega mega doper trouncing the rest of the (clean) peloton but....err..he hasn't actually won much yet.

My issue with Sky isn't Froome or even Wiggins.
It's how the TEAM can drop world class riders motoring up the climbs.

If it was a clean peloton, then why other teams aren't able to do that?
Riddle me that.

 

[lavieclaire]

Sky are doping. So hard to go back after you start… on the track you can contain it. Road racing you’ve got to transport the stuff. Much more chance of getting caught.

Not really.

At least 18 years of major doping by pro riders and how many busts of people caught with products? Voet. Who else?

Millar was busted at home.

 

[horsinabout]

On these types of forums back in the day, you’d have 50 Lance fans against 4 Lance is a doper guys. Now here you got 20 Sky are dopers, 10 on the fencers and Jimmy and Masterracer. No one believes their BS on being clean. Other forums are much more friendly to Sky but they’re just love fests.

Brailsfords getting annoyed but he knows social media is a groundswell. It builds. People starting reading stuff. They become educated. The learn things for themselves. He’s going to have to release something soon to show they are clean. Walsh articles won’t cut it.

He can already see CyclingNews are asking questions. They are planting seeds.

Sky are doping. So hard to go back after you start… on the track you can contain it. Road racing you’ve got to transport the stuff. Much more chance of getting caught.

So our keyboard is really our sword then?

 

[JimmyFingers]

I thought JV saying he wasn't a DS? Just team manager?

So JV sees all this stuff from his EMBA classroom?

LOL!

Yes because Vaughters never attends races

LOL!

 

[Cyivel]

I think you need to make a point here, because my reference was to the constant sarcasm directed at Sky for citing warm downs as one of their marginal gains, because 'professions' all warm down, cyclists have done it for years and even kiddiewinks at school doing it, yet here is JV saying a mere 10% of the peloton does.

Unless you're looking for some misdirection to detract from this, which flies in the face of oft-employed anti-Sky mantra here.

Good to know my P.E teacher was ahead of the curve compared to all these cycling teams, even years ago, should try and contact him and tell him to set up a cycling team he'll be winning Grand Tours in no time.

 

[thehog]

So our keyboard is really our sword then?

Of course.

No wonder China shuts off the Internet.

$1000 Sky release some form of Coyle report in the next 6 months. It will be about the big engines from Wiggins, Froome and Portre. It will have loads of data to make the Skybots go gooey eyed and leave out key information on blood parameters. It will be signed off but some sport scientist no one has ever heard of before to demonstrate how Sky train clean but train harder!

 

[lavieclaire]

My issue with Sky isn't Froome or even Wiggins.
It's how the TEAM can drop world class riders motoring up the climbs.

If it was a clean peloton, then why other teams aren't able to do that?
Riddle me that.

Several possibilities:

a) they are doping
b) they are really really good, and nobody else is doping as much as they used to

or both

I don't know which.

 

[Benotti69]

Are they? Really?

Sky dont do warms downs unless the cameras are rolling

 

[JimmyFingers]

Good to know my P.E teacher was ahead of the curve compared to all these cycling teams, even years ago, should try and contact him and tell him to set up a cycling team he'll be winning Grand Tours in no time.

I think you should. Still, from someone within the pro-peloton, we have it that only 10% of the riders do it. I suppose there's a gap between knowing that you should do it, and just jumping on a bus and having a snooze.

Did any of your PE lessons involve hard racing over 200k long btw?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Sky dont do warms downs unless the cameras are rolling

I don't get out of bed unless the cameras are rolling

 

[Cyivel]

I think you should. Still, from someone within the pro-peloton, we have it that only 10% of the riders do it. I suppose there's a gap between knowing that you should do it, and just jumping on a bus and having a snooze.

Did any of your PE lessons involve hard racing over 200k long btw?

I'm going to say yes.

He was a sadistic ******* as well as a pioneer.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

....or, if we assume he isn't doping his riders it looks like justifiable anger.

Take your pick.

Justifiable anger it would perhaps be, but it would also then call into question the wisdom of stating it as he did, with numerous factual inaccuracies or exaggerations, because that makes him sound more dishonest. It's like my mother when I was a child. "I'll be off the computer in around half an hour". After 32 minutes it was "you've been on there nearly an hour!" - the blatant exaggeration to make a point.

The 80's comparisons are naive. Cycling, like many other sports, increasingly draws from a larger pool of riders due to its internationalization. The result is less variance in the performance of riders. The attacks in the 80s and before were in part due to the fact that a small pool of riders (team leaders) were significantly better than the rest of riders and incentive structures were different before contracts were tied to rider point systems. Team leaders could win GC jerseys and points jerseys (last done by Hinault - Merckx won all 3 jerseys in a single tour). The irony is that if a rider today dominated a race the way team leaders used to this forum would go apoplectic.

Of course. Because as you say, the difference between the best and worst riders in the péloton is much smaller now, so if you could dominate like the best riders did then, you'll look ridiculous.

69Kilos according to various websites but I'm 99% sure he said in the book 68Kg.

You're using Bradley Wiggins himself as a source? I thought that he had been totally discredited as a source by now owing to the fact that his story stayed as straight as a circle.

Btw, I remeber Hogg saying he had some clear info about Sky doping few months ago and the info was going to go out into the open soon afterwards.

Well, did it ? :lol: ....

Notwithstanding that this is Hog so it's inevitably nonsense, what kind of idiot, if they actually had clear info about Sky doping, would be blurting it out on a message forum without being able to back it up through the appropriate channels? I mean, I could say "I winged my way into a Team Sky hotel last July and the riders were shooting up in the corridors" on here... but who would believe that? Even if I hadn't just pulled that notion out of thin air just now and had actually been there... with nothing further, then the only thing it would serve is the endless he-said-she-said of the Clinic's treatment of such matters. I recall once somebody made some tenuous link of Valverde to Humanplasma. Nothing came of it, because it was likely total drivel. But several posters immediately bought it, because Valverde = dope = stories about Valverde doping must be true. But why would Valverde need to go all the way to Vienna to dope, especially bearing in mind he'd stick out like a sore thumb when all his training partners are in Spain and he had hardly raced in Germany/Austria/Italy in years? But it's only the conspiracy theorists who would buy it, and even if I knew what I'd seen and was telling the truth, without going through the appropriate channels I'd just be a lone nut on a forum. And worse, if I did go through the appropriate channels and then blurted it out on a forum while it was still going through the typical administrative and legal challenges for investigations of this type, I'd prejudice the investigation.

Was Brailsford the head of track, when Hayles(not sure if it was him, but pretty sure it happened in the era of clean cycling(2006)) joined the over 50 club?

To be fair though, like many other riders who have a certificate stating they have naturally high hematocrit, Hayles has spent many generations at altitude. He's from Portsmouth, a city which is a whole seven metres above sea level.

Masters Racer - read Wiggins book and other interviews. He actually states his power and weight and do the maths yourself.

Again... Wiggins... can't use his statements as evidence of anything other than what an opportunistic stretcher of the truth he is.

so fast bringing that from another thread yet no comments on froome never being to a wind tunnel . . .

If Marc Madiot had only taught his riders to warm down just think... with the advantages of wind tunnels AND warming down, FDJ would be sticking 5 guys in the top 10 by now!

(seriously on the wind tunnel though, we had a guy on the forum who worked at a wind tunnel where Liberty Seguros Continental and Palmeiras Resort - I think - had done testing. These are small Portuguese Continental teams. If they can afford wind tunnel testing it's pretty much hilarious if Sky don't use it, unless they have something which does more or less the same but with a more technological look, mood lighting and a Brian Eno album on loop to simulate the feel of doing a time trial AND being on the Team Sky bus at the same time)

 

[mastersracer]

Twelve years ago it was 7w/k, now it is 6w/k.

I am glad to have withnessed the 5.8w/k generation.
I will stay polite but you really have zero knowledge on statistics/race influence.
Ever saw the numbers of Indurain 1991/1992? His w/k were far down on LeMonds. Why? Maybe because InduEPO crushed everyone in the TT before the mountains?

funny getting 'history' lessons from some of you. I was at the 1991 Tour de France. Indurain did not 'crush' everyone in the ITT before the mountains. Greg was less than 10 seconds slower than Indurain in that time trial and was leading the race after it (and had a 2 minute margin over Indurain).

That Tour was decided on stage 13, a brutal 7 hour stage over Pourtalet, Aubisque, Tourmalet, Aspin, to Val Louron. Then there was another brutal 7.5 mountain stage in the alps. Some riders were just better at 'recovery.'

 

[lavieclaire]

Notwithstanding that this is Hog so it's inevitably nonsense,

Ah..ok. I get the picture.

 

[thehog]

Good to know my P.E teacher was ahead of the curve compared to all these cycling teams, even years ago, should try and contact him and tell him to set up a cycling team he'll be winning Grand Tours in no time.

My good friend Kevin Livingstone.

Telling us about warming down in 2008... http://www.livestrong.com/video/3800-cool-down-after-cycling/

But its very new.

Not seen it before.

No one does it.

 

[lavieclaire]

No one does it.

Not quite no-one, but only about 10% according to Jonathan Vaugters (assuming it is the real Vaughters) on the JV thread

 

[JimmyFingers]

My good friend Kevin Livingstone.

Telling us about warming down in 2008... http://www.livestrong.com/video/3800-cool-down-after-cycling/

But its very new.

Not seen it before.

No one does it.

10% of the peloton apparently. In 2013

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I really don't have the personal resources to argue with the stumps anymore, so here's a post I made elsewhere:


Originally Posted by JMBeaushrimp View Post
I'm a bit confused as to how the Sky fanboys can be so indignant that people dare suggest something is up with Sky.

Think on this, Skybots: For the last 30 years EVERY team that has rocked out with a dominating train up the climbs, EVERY team that has presented a squad that is stronger than the peloton, and EVERY team that has had riders that made massive improvements in climbing and TTing has been implicated in a doping debacle.

EVERY team...


The Grand and Beautiful Sir David has had his moment to explain, and we have to take that as it is. He is a Knight, after all...

But... And it's a big but, he COULD quash this in its tracks.

Release the data. That is all. Have your team doc post hc and hmg data.

Not power data, not FTP, not VAM, nor anything that you may think is "advantageous" to your opponents, or anything the pseudo-scientists think matters.

Just the blood.

That's already being tracked by our overseers, right? The biopass, and all.

I would love someone holding a UK license to take this up, as it's not going to gain as much momentum as I could lend to it (being a cranky foreigner and all).

Very simple. Release the data. Blood data will not effect tactics, so let's nip that lie in the bud...

 

[JimmyFingers]

I'm going to say yes.

He was a sadistic ******* as well as a pioneer.

Your PE lessons were very different to mine. We occasionally jumped over a pommel horse, climbed some wall bars and the odd rope and then played rounders

 

[thehog]

10% of the peloton apparently. In 2013

Got it Jimmy. 10%.

I’ll show you videos of Ag2R, Saur Sojasun, Quick-Step, Garmin all warming down.

I’m assuming that’s more than the 90% that don’t?

You will believe anything, won’t you?

Go back and ask your new friend JV about warming down.

Whilst there ask him about this: (and don't get too star struck when asking him!) - The guy who didn't see any doping now sees no one warming down

"I was this skinny guy," he said this week. "I didn't want to end up being the girlfriend of some gendarme," he told Cyclingnews.

"I was thinking back (to that time) and I remember I could feel that we (USPS) were going to be real contenders for the Tour. So I called Johan (Bruyneel) and asked him if there was anything I should be worried about. He assured me and said, 'we're not going to be doing any of that (doping)'. Basically, he said there was none of that (in the team). There would be nothing to worry about."

Still, it was Vaughters himself who received a fright at the pre-Tour medical tests, as his hematocrit posted a 51 percent reading, above the UCI's limit of 50 percent, but still under his special dispensation of 52 percent. (Frequent testing had shown that Vaughters - like many good climbers - have naturally high hematocrit levels and they are granted dispensation from doctors.)

"I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)."


But as far as Vaughters could see in the USPS team, "there was no first-hand evidence of anything (doping-related). I didn't see any evidence of EPO or anything like that. But that said, I wasn't there for the second and third weeks of the Tour," he said. (US Postal lost Jonathan Vaughters after he was caught up in the second fall over the Gois on stage 2. He was part of Armstrong's plan for the mountains.)

 

[JimmyFingers]

Very simple. Release the data. Blood data will not effect tactics, so let's nip that lie in the bud...

Release it to who, to you? And what will you do with it? What will the clinic do with it?

I've heard calls of this nature and I don't get it: what will it accomplish? Will one by one the forums and twitter feeds fall silent, then gradually the applause will start slowly and build to a huge crescendo?

Who here is qualified to assess that data? Imagine the bedroom scientists all doing their flawed calculations and coming up with wildly divergent conclusions. Imagine the all the arguments. It would be chaos, a glorious chaos probably but I doubt it would accomplish much.

I don't think it would solve anything. THE blood data is being analysed by people that know what they are doing, but the governing body who controls the process is corrupt. Remove them, get testing we can trust and maybe the chat rooms will fall silent. Until that happens we are in this revolving door of theory and counter-theory.

Enjoy the ride

 

[thehog]

Release it to who, to you? And what will you do with it? What will the clinic do with it?

I've heard calls of this nature and I don't get it: what will it accomplish? Will one by one the forums and twitter feeds fall silent, then gradually the applause will start slowly and build to a huge crescendo?

Who here is qualified to assess that data? Imagine the bedroom scientists all doing their flawed calculations and coming up with wildly divergent conclusions. Imagine the all the arguments. It would be chaos, a glorious chaos probably but I doubt it would accomplish much.

I don't think it would solve anything. THE blood data is being analysed by people that know what they are doing, but the governing body who controls the process is corrupt. Remove them, get testing we can trust and maybe the chat rooms will fall silent. Until that happens we are in this revolving door of theory and counter-theory.

Enjoy the ride

Your friend doesn't agree with you:

Wiggins calls for biological passport data to be made public

“I think they should make these things public,” he said.

“The whole blood passport should be on [the] internet, every rider in the peloton. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be. It’s got to that stage now where if there’s nothing to hide why aren’t they up there? You can pull up in any walk of life, company accounts, people’s tax and that’s public knowledge, so I don’t see why the blood passport shouldn’t be public knowledge. It will silence people or challenge certain things but I don’t see what harm it would do. It would give you credibility in the public’s eyes … but I don’t think everyone would agree to it, maybe for moral reasons or people thinking that it might be an invasion of privacy.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wiggins-calls-for-biological-passport-data-to-be-made-public

 

[JimmyFingers]

Got it Jimmy. 10%.

I’ll show you videos of Ag2R, Saur Sojasun, Quick-Step, Garmin all warming down.

I’m assuming that’s more than the 90% that don’t?

You will believe anything, won’t you?

Go back and ask your new friend JV about warming down.

Whilst there ask him about this: (and don't get too star struck when asking him!) - The guy who didn't see any doping now sees no one warming down

Ooh really? That sounds like excellent night-time viewing. So videos of four teams. After every race they take part in? Every rider? What percentage of the world and pro-conti teams do four make up exactly?

Seriously can't wait for the videos

 

[JimmyFingers]

Your friend doesn't agree with you:

Good old Wiggo, always embarrassing me in public.

Still don't think it will prove anything either way. Change the UCI, get WADA to do the testing and control the BP. Do you disagree?