Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Netserk]

Cyclocosm rant on DB

 

[mattghg]

Cyclocosm rant on DB

Interesting advice:

You want to get the Internet fanbase off your back? Follow this one rule: ask What Would Lance Armstrong Have Done, and then do the opposite.

 

[orbeas]

Sky

Excellant advice to Sir David..

 

[martinvickers]

This does not sound too controversial.

Now here's a question for the lawyers...

If you have signed an NDA and then subsequently blab to an anti-doping agency, would you be in breach of the NDA? Blabbing to the anti-doping agencies is a good thing, but would this count for anything if the acts being highlighted to the agency weren't illegal in the UK, such as blood transfusions and EPO use. (I assume that if you blabbed about illegal activities, then you would have some sort of statutory protection.)

Any confidentiality clause is void at common law if contrary to public policy. This expands past criminal and civil wrongs to any 'iniquitous' behaviour - lion labs v Evans (1985). In addition whistleblowing legislation - employment rights act 1996 - protects any informer where this is likely to be criminal behaviour (and not just in the uk), danger to health or someone seeks to avoid legal obligations.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

A contract provision is just words, unless one of the parties tries to enforce the contract. If Sky tried to enforce an NDA to block somebody from snitching to the UCI, that (I would suspect) be a massive violation of both the UCI rules and the WADA code. Practically, such a provision might be unenforceable in the circumstances you describe, because Sky would be hindering a UCI/WADA investigation when it seeks to enforce the NDA.

As between the former employee and Sky, a deal's a deal unless some or all of the deal is illegal.

Thanks. Wherever I've worked that has had a voluntary redundancy programme with enhanced terms (over the statutory minimum) then an NDA has had to be signed. This was to prevent the flow of information to establish a "market price" for volunteering, so maybe Sky's NDAs are to assist in keeping down the cost of being generous to those who felt they couldn't sign the document.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

As between the former employee and Sky, a deal's a deal unless some or all of the deal is illegal.

Is doping a criminal offence in England?

 

[RownhamHill]

I do think there is a difference between a lie (which is intended to deceive) and a mistake (which just makes oneself look stupid).

Why would Brailsford lie about something so easily verified/disproved?

It was just a mistake (and yes, it does make him look stupid criticizing others for not doing their homework).

If this is the 40 days point, does anyone know it was actually know it was a mistake? It seems established that Leinders worked 80 days in 2011 and was contracted to work a further 80 days in 2012. But it's also pretty established that about half way through 2012 the Clinic (and others?) started asking questions about Leinders, leading to Brailsford announcing an investigation into him at about the time of the Tour de France, and then announcing he'd left the team in about October time.

So I guess the question is (and I don't know the answer, just asking the question) is how many days did Leinders actually work in 2012? Imagine if Sky had stopped him working at the time they started getting flak for it, that would have been, what, about half way through the season. In which case, you might imagine that he had only worked about half his scheduled time. . .

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Just asking them.

 

[Benotti69]

Excellant advice to Sir David..

Yes, they should print that on the back of the bus, the side of the bus and on the inside of the DS car windscreen.

 

[blackcat]

No, his biggest fan did.

_____________________

Why would Brailsford lie about something so easily verified/disproved?

if we r talking doping, the threshold required for evidence is prohibitively high.

if I withdraw then transfuse like Levi and Floyd in the privacy of my own home and own hotel room, Ash has proven that you can "deceive" the passport, if in fact the passport was intended to prevent said deception,

you will never be found out

 

[SundayRider]

The irony been that the whole UK cycling/Sky success has been built around looking into every last tiny detail in regards to performance...

 

[northstar]

If this is the 40 days point, does anyone know it was actually know it was a mistake? It seems established that Leinders worked 80 days in 2011 and was contracted to work a further 80 days in 2012. But it's also pretty established that about half way through 2012 the Clinic (and others?) started asking questions about Leinders, leading to Brailsford announcing an investigation into him at about the time of the Tour de France, and then announcing he'd left the team in about October time.

So I guess the question is (and I don't know the answer, just asking the question) is how many days did Leinders actually work in 2012? Imagine if Sky had stopped him working at the time they started getting flak for it, that would have been, what, about half way through the season. In which case, you might imagine that he had only worked about half his scheduled time. . .

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Just asking them.

As per Dr. Mas’ post (#15630), Leinders was at 8 races between March and June. That’s a combined total of 27 race days. So we know Leinders worked at least 27 days in 2012.

Brailsford said, “But hiring one doctor, who worked for 40 days, does that mean we're doping now, are we?” It’s not clear if he meant 40 days total time at Sky or 40 days work in 2012. If you add 27 known work days plus 13 training days/extra days = Leinders worked 40 days in total for 2012.

That’s my guess. But the longer I follow cycling, the less reading comprehension I have. The cycling journos are wearing me out. Or maybe it is all the contradicting statements made by people who should know better.

Interesting to note that up until he disappeared in late June, Leinders was at all of Wiggins’ races in 2012 with the exception of Volta ao Algarve. Leinders was the doctor at Paris-Nice, Romandie and Dauphine, all races Wiggins won.

Leinders and Wiggins were a winning combination.
.

 

[thehog]

Is doping a criminal offence in England?

Sticking a needle into a young mans arm and injecting him with synthetic red blood cells is, yes.

 

[FellOff]

Sticking a needle into a young mans arm and injecting him with synthetic red blood cells is, yes.

Which law are you referring to? I think it is a criminal offence only in Italy. In the UK and elsewhere in Europe only the supply and manufacture of performance-enhancing drugs are illegal.

 

[Catwhoorg]

That would be unlicensed medical experimentation I am sure.

 

[thehog]

Which law are you referring to? I think it is a criminal offence only in Italy. In the UK and elsewhere in Europe only the supply and manufacture of performance-enhancing drugs are illegal.

Malpractice. And the law of injecting a foreign substance into a person without their knowledge of its contents.

 

[martinvickers]

Which law are you referring to? I think it is a criminal offence only in Italy. In the UK and elsewhere in Europe only the supply and manufacture of performance-enhancing drugs are illegal.

Actually doping is not a criminal offence per se in the UK, although there a re a series of offences that could impinge on the issue.

Check here

 

[thehog]

Malpractice. And the law of injecting a foreign substance into a person without their knowledge of its contents.

Besides. No doping in the UK. They're all in Spain or somewhere inbetween.

No one is going to be getting caught. Or testing positive.

 

[Alpechraxler]

How about giving riders anti - anxiety/depressants drugs? Off course with a tue.

I doubt that you need a tue for the common antidepressants. Considering my own history with citalopram which gave me serious munchies and +10 kg i wouln't even consider them as performance enhancing.

According to a book from Bjarne Riis he used them too, gave him a positive outlook towards the race, less fear, doubts etc..

 

[northstar]

They had (and still have) four doctors, Farrell is the only full time one and did all three GT's last year, with the rest on varying contracts to suit their out of cycling practices. All info readily available on the team site.

Thanks. I checked out the website. It looks like there are currently 4 medical doctors, 1 psychiatrist, 2 physiotherapists and 1 nutritionist on staff.

2012 race guides are listed and for the most part confirm which doctor attended each race. Do you know what happened to Dr. Fabio Bartalucci? He was at February and March races and then disappeared. Did Dr. Farrell replace him?

2011 races guides are not listed. That’s too bad as there’s no way to find out Leinders’ schedule for that year now.

 

[horsinabout]

No, his biggest fan did.
I agree somewhat,

this is a man not cut out for lying, at large media scale [larger picture:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pho...-accusations-and-criticism-of-team-sky/249962 well, Picture One that is, I am quite a judge of charactar and that picture shows a very uncertain human being].

But, sir Dave should not be so stupid to do those kinda interviews. Keep the facts straight. He will leave SKY soon, he deserves a rest after 15 years of dominance.

Happier times for DB, and "then" pal NC.....who I have a feeling is in it far too deep for beans to be spilt.

 

[Robert21]

Which law are you referring to? I think it is a criminal offence only in Italy. In the UK and elsewhere in Europe only the supply and manufacture of performance-enhancing drugs are illegal.

Hasn't doping being illegal in France since the Festina scandal? Wasn't this law the main reason Armstrong and others shipped over the border into Spain in order to set up their training bases, especially around Girona? It is also the reason the French police often take an 'interest' in the Tour and other big races.

 

[Benotti69]

Hasn't doping being illegal in France since the Festina scandal? Wasn't this law the main reason Armstrong and others shipped over the border into Spain in order to set up their training bases, especially around Girona? It is also the reason the French police often take an 'interest' in the Tour and other big races.

Yes, but they all deny it. Nice and its locale was the favoured training ground for pros for years before the French made doping a criminal offence then they all fled to Spain, where we are told the training is much better

 

[del1962]

Is doping a criminal offence in England?

Police busted someone recently for providing steroids so yes.

 

[bobbins]

Police busted someone recently for providing steroids so yes.

That's supply of a controlled substance, not doping.

Doping isn't a criminal offence in the uk.

 

[martinvickers]

That's supply of a controlled substance, not doping.

Doping isn't a criminal offence in the uk.

As linked before, in particular, first nine words

and by the way, i think not having a criminal offence for doping, at least for professional athletes, is a national disgrace