Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Roderick]

No one's saying EBH is crap. We're saying he hasn't improved much since his HTC days.

If it wasn't for Gilbert, EBH won the WC last year and no one would say he didn't improve

 

[Galic Ho]

If it wasn't for Gilbert, EBH won the WC last year and no one would say he didn't improve

Yeah but EBH was also the only Sky rider who was good at the WC last year. I could take that back to the lines of conversation from October, but we've all been there before.

 

[thehog]

I thought Stannard was the Wiggins clone after looking at him during the Olympics. Junior Wiggins on paper. Then I saw the chart progression of his career. Note where he was on that. Froome level...okay a smidgen higher, but still garbage.

So when he didn't win, it was a good day. I don't like Sagan rubbing his victories in the faces of his competition but I'll take him any day over another Froome type guy. Brailsford should never have shown a journalist that chart. EVER. DUMB DUMB DUMB MOVE.

Still gotta give him credit. Finishing near the front in that weather when over half of OPQS were on a bus and Nibali couldn't get going...not for the feint of heart. Takes guts. But I am happy he didn't win. Give him time though. It'll happen. Was never going to beat Chavanel anyway despite what it may have looked like. Chavanel did most of the climb pacing...proof he is stronger.

I was looking at Stannard yesterday saying to myself "you are f**** kidding me!"

The guy is a club rider!

He did a lot of work for Sky early on and he was still there at the end.

I do take it wasn't a normal race with the cold, the restart etc. but the Top 10 sans Bonnen probably have been the way it would have ended up on a better day.

That's why I kept looking at Stannard and going WTF? He's a dom and he ride Sagan off his wheel!

Thankfully he didn't factor in the last 2km but still!....

Ian Stannard!?!?!?

 

[will10]

And yet you have EBH, or is he just an outlier? Oh wait, he's not on the programme....

It's amazing how people can look at Sky, watch them race and discern the inner workings of the team, or give prescient insights to how they are going to perform

How exactly does an arguably underperforming Hagen justify the leaps in performance of numerous Sky riders? Lovkvist was still at Sky in 2012 and did nowt, does that mean Sky must have been clean at the Tour?

 

[JimmyFingers]

How exactly does an arguably underperforming Hagen justify the leaps in performance of numerous Sky riders? Lovkvist was still at Sky in 2012 and did nowt, does that mean Sky must have been clean at the Tour?

It was mainly directed at those who have Sky on an Eastern Bloc style programme. But you can't have it both ways though: hold jumps in performance and argue they indicate doping and not expect when a rider goes in the opposite direction someone makes a similar, if opposing, point.

I personally don't think he is out of form. He hasn't done well in any bunch sprints, but I wouldn't expect him to, and he got shelled in MSR, in horrible conditions. I think it's difficult to properly gauge his form so far this season, but it is coming off a tremendous ride in the worlds, and a good, if not exceptional, season last season.

 

[Lanark]

It was mainly directed at those who have Sky on an Eastern Bloc style programme. But you can't have it both ways though: hold jumps in performance and argue they indicate doping and not expect when a rider goes in the opposite direction someone makes a similar, if opposing, point.

I personally don't think he is out of form. He hasn't done well in any bunch sprints, but I wouldn't expect him to, and he got shelled in MSR, in horrible conditions. I think it's difficult to properly gauge his form so far this season, but it is coming off a tremendous ride in the worlds, and a good, if not exceptional, season last season.

But you can, if you think that a core (Froome, Wiggins, Porte, Rogers) within the team is on an advanced program, but not necessarily the rest. This is in line with history of doping use in other teams.

Who actually thinks that everyone in Sky is doping? It seems that this 'opposing point' is more of gotcha aimed at a straw man.

 

[JimmyFingers]

No one's saying EBH is crap. We're saying he hasn't improved much since his HTC days.

So he has improved?

But I'm not sure as to what point that proves really. Seems a red herring to me.

 

[Galic Ho]

I was looking at Stannard yesterday saying to myself "you are f**** kidding me!"

The guy is a club rider!

He did a lot of work for Sky early on and he was still there at the end.

I do take it wasn't a normal race with the cold, the restart etc. but the Top 10 sans Bonnen probably have been the way it would have ended up on a better day.

That's why I kept looking at Stannard and going WTF? He's a dom and he ride Sagan off his wheel!

Thankfully he didn't factor in the last 2km but still!....

Ian Stannard!?!?!?

Exactly. Not the type of rider I'd associate with that kind of ride. The name everyone talked up was Thomas. Not Stannard or Kennaugh. We'll be hearing from all three of them. No way in hell they should be outperforming EBH in a race like this. NOT NORMAL.

 

[SundayRider]

Was the infamous 'peformance trajectory graph' just Sky management opinion or was it formulated through power testing/results etc.?

 

[Pentacycle]

Was the infamous 'peformance trajectory graph' just Sky management opinion or was it formulated through power testing/results etc.?

↓ ↓ ↓ Fyi: ↓ ↓ ↓

 

[Galic Ho]

Was the infamous 'peformance trajectory graph' just Sky management opinion or was it formulated through power testing/results etc.?

It was based on a game of strip poker. The least clothes lost, the higher you were on the graph. Moral of the story is don't gamble against EBH!

 

[xcleigh]

I was looking at Stannard yesterday saying to myself "you are f**** kidding me!"

The guy is a club rider!

He did a lot of work for Sky early on and he was still there at the end.

I do take it wasn't a normal race with the cold, the restart etc. but the Top 10 sans Bonnen probably have been the way it would have ended up on a better day.

That's why I kept looking at Stannard and going WTF? He's a dom and he ride Sagan off his wheel!

Thankfully he didn't factor in the last 2km but still!....

Ian Stannard!?!?!?

That's so true, a club rider through and through . And he rode sagan off his wheel so much that he finished behind him at the end. It stinks I tell ye. Just out of interest how does one determine who is and is not a club rider?

 

[Galic Ho]

Stop your frustration on EBH please, he is not 'the biggest talent at Sky' as you call it. As has been pointed out over the years he can't handle the toughest spring classics. He has no endurance, and no matter how high your VO2max is you can't win classics without it.

Froome on the other hand has the talent, but didn't have a professional team around him until he was 24, while Hagen turned pro at 21 and was already close to his peak.(he's still on his 2009 level) They're quite the opposite riders in terms of their development. EBH has only progressed little(no, he's not become worse) at Sky, while Froome is finally reaching his best years at 28.

Who was the guy winning and smashing it up for Sky in 2011 at the Tour when Wiggins crashed out? Of course EBH was at his 2009 level there! Because crap riders don't ever win multiple stages at the biggest GT and single handed save Sky's whole race minus Flecha's performances.

 

[thehog]

Was the infamous 'peformance trajectory graph' just Sky management opinion or was it formulated through power testing/results etc.?

Dave Bruyneel looked at the graph and thought anyone below the line will be a star.

Anyone above may not be a bigger enough of a responder to factor.

 

[thehog]

Food poisoning.... In Tenerife!

Is that code?

“I didn't have that good a buildup,” he told Procycling.no in the team hotel after the race. “I struggled with food poisoning in Tenerife [where the Sky team prepared for the race – ed.]. Then it was fifty-fifty whether it would go well. I felt perfectly fine [beforehand], but it probably takes more energy out of you than I thought. I struggled to eat food for two days, which is at the expense of the strength. The weather did not help either.”

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...food-poisoning-in-Tenerife.aspx#ixzz2NtTEgVhu

 

[Ferminal]

Maybe he was doping pre-Sky and now he's off the sauce

That said, he's hardly gone to donkey status, has he? Yesterday's race is a outlier, given the conditions. His 2013 season has barely got going, he was superb at the Tour and third in the Worlds last year.

Stories of his demise may be a little premature

Or he has always run an independent program*. Lack of improvement = u23 and neopro results were due to dope advantage which doesn't persist at the pointy end**.

*Of marginal gains of course, Norwegians have stone grinding so don't need to dope.

**I like to think EBH is clean.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Food poisoning.... In Tenerife!

Is that code?



http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...food-poisoning-in-Tenerife.aspx#ixzz2NtTEgVhu

So, Sky were actually riding for Geraint Thomas? I really would have wanted to see that, Thomas exploding on the Poggio in Jalabert style. They really have to give that Kirienka Kamikaze steering lessons, two big falls in 2 weeks man, that is no marginal gain.

but it could be argued that the shock of going from warm conditions to the near-zero temperatures of yesterday handed Team Sky a disadvantage compared to their rivals.

Stannard not on Teide?

 

[Pentacycle]

Who was the guy winning and smashing it up for Sky in 2011 at the Tour when Wiggins crashed out? Of course EBH was at his 2009 level there! Because crap riders don't ever win multiple stages at the biggest GT and single handed save Sky's whole race minus Flecha's performances.

EBH has a lot of talent, but it's taking him quite long to reach his predicted level as top classics rider. He's always been a good uphill sprinter, thus he won the Lisieux stage against Goss and Thor(?) iirc. That breakaway stage was impressive, but against what competition? TGBM and Hivert were the only riders a bit close, but they weren't having the form of their life either. In 2009 the guy already won Gent-Wevelgem, and a Giro stage(both with an impressive performance) before totally dominating in Poland, ENECO and Britain.

The only progress he made at Sky was losing some weight, but it made him terrible on cobbles, and only good for riding 50kms on the front in the Tour. His sprint became worse as well. Marginal gains vs. marginal losses...

 

[The Hitch]

Beat mollema and hivert solo despite the fact that he had been in the breakaway the day before and only lost out to a double team.

 

[Netserk]

It was mainly directed at those who have Sky on an Eastern Bloc style programme. But you can't have it both ways though: hold jumps in performance and argue they indicate doping and not expect when a rider goes in the opposite direction someone makes a similar, if opposing, point.

Do we agree that a team can have a team-wide doping program and a few clean riders? Or does the whole team have to dope before it is a team-wide thing? In that case, does that mean that there wasn't team-wide doping programs on Festina and Cofidis?

Or is it possible that there is a team-wide doping program on Sky that a lot of the riders use, but EBH doesn't? Is that a possibility?

 

[Ferminal]

That a rider (EBH) can be clean on a doped team is no more/less valid than a rider being doped (Rogers) on a clean team.

 

[MartinGT]

Food poisoning.... In Tenerife!

Is that code?



http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...food-poisoning-in-Tenerife.aspx#ixzz2NtTEgVhu

Oh dear, now where have I heard this before?

 

[Galic Ho]

EBH has a lot of talent, but it's taking him quite long to reach his predicted level as top classics rider. He's always been a good uphill sprinter, thus he won the Lisieux stage against Goss and Thor(?) iirc. That breakaway stage was impressive, but against what competition? TGBM and Hivert were the only riders a bit close, but they weren't having the form of their life either. In 2009 the guy already won Gent-Wevelgem, and a Giro stage(both with an impressive performance) before totally dominating in Poland, ENECO and Britain.

The only progress he made at Sky was losing some weight, but it made him terrible on cobbles, and only good for riding 50kms on the front in the Tour. His sprint became worse as well. Marginal gains vs. marginal losses...

He did have a good year in 2009. But GT wise, IMO he got more of a go in 2011. But then again, HTC were all in it for the win for Cav. So, apples and oranges. Can't compare. But it is fair to say he's plateaued. Just like Lovkvist did. And given what may or may not have been shown to a journalist by Brailsford, it should be taken into consideration.

Regarding that article to him being sick. I buy that. If he had food poisoning, then it's not something one can just shrug off. Takes at least a week plus to get over fully. Add in the weather, it's a miracle he made it as far as he did. Though Stannard performance doesn't really shock me given the way Sky as a whole have been racing. They've certainly got the bit between their teeth as a team.

 

[mikehammer67]

Tenerife is clearly a saddle sore free zone. You know. When the riders are training harder than they race, they don't get sick, or saddle sores. It's only in races or something where they need a doctor.

Let me say what I really mean: if you tell the truth, you NEVER have to remember what you said in the past. Ever. Just remember and retell what actually happened.

If it sounds like BS ("something about the gears and rolling resistance or something", "we do training camps without doctors, we try to eliminate all the distractions"), it probably is.

it seems to be spin

-maybe sending out the message that there's nothing dodgy happening on tenerife

i'm not well informed but,

would it be wise to set up a camp without a team doctor in-situ?
(considering one of their riders just had food poisoning on tenerife)



was leinders on tenerife?

presumably not, or at least he shouldn't have been

 

[JimmyFingers]

I was looking at Stannard yesterday saying to myself "you are f**** kidding me!"

The guy is a club rider!

He did a lot of work for Sky early on and he was still there at the end.

I do take it wasn't a normal race with the cold, the restart etc. but the Top 10 sans Bonnen probably have been the way it would have ended up on a better day.

That's why I kept looking at Stannard and going WTF? He's a dom and he ride Sagan off his wheel!

Thankfully he didn't factor in the last 2km but still!....

Ian Stannard!?!?!?

Hog in Sky rider doping shocker