Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Don't be late Pedro]

or

If Sky are and dominating they all must be clean?

Hallelujah! Cycling is 100% clean!

or

Sky are and everyone else is still doping.

I can only conclude that English is not your first language because you constantly reply to a post and then answer a different question.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

And, he was the only rider suffering from it. Guess Eddy only ate the bad chicken.

Good point. Did Walsh mention any diarrea?

And if multiple riders were ill there is no chance you would have concluded that it was doping gone wrong, right?

 

[The Hitch]

Neither Froome or Wiggins are part of the group he is referring to though. Seems irrelevant to the discussion here.

that is a valid rebuttal.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This video is interesting: http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/countdown-to-the-classics/

1. If I wanted to convey team spirit, I would have interviewed the group as a team, not 2 riders from the group individually
2. Geraint comes across as repetitive - but that's the editor's muck up
3. Eddy comes across as entirely uncomfortable. And given his food poisoning, the words he speaks in the interview seem scripted to the nth degree. Could be a case of timing though, granted. ie he got food poisoning post-interview.
4. Neither rider seems happy, relaxed, or full of team spirit, mentioning anyone else or anything. Seems very individualistic. Even if the interviewer is asking pointed questions, I dunno. I've seen much better "team spirit" interviews before. Even when congratulating an actor for a good performance in a movie they invariably mention the director or something. Very subjective, I realise, but still. Just. Dunno. Not reinforcing the Knaven "great team spirit" vibe I would have expected to see, given it's the reason they are going to outclass the peloton.

 

[JimmyFingers]

And if we take that and look back at the sport and that nothing has changed, Sky are exactly like every other big rich team that came and went before.

Except you are qualifying that by 'every other rich team' now, rather than like other teams.

But on that note La Vie Claire was a big rich team, no?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

that is a valid rebuttal.

Pretty sure Wiggo IS in that group - ie has been training with the classics team up until the Volta Catalunya.

 

[thehog]

This video is interesting: http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/countdown-to-the-classics/

1. If I wanted to convey team spirit, I would have interviewed the group as a team, not 2 individuals from the group
2. Geraint comes across as repetitive - but that's the editor's muck up
3. Eddy comes across as entirely uncomfortable. And given his food poisoning, the words he speaks in the interview seem scripted to the nth degree. Could be a case of timing though, granted. ie he got food poisoning post-interview.
4. Neither rider seems happy, relaxed, or full of team spirit, mentioning anyone else or anything. Seems very individualistic. Even if the interviewer is asking pointed questions, I dunno. I've seen much better "team spirit" interviews before. Even when congratulating an actor for a good performance in a movie they invariably mention the director or something. Very subjective, I realise, but still. Just. Dunno. Not reinforcing the Knaven "great team spirit" vibe I would have expected to see.

Loads of team spirit in road side hotel as they all get transfused.

 

[Benotti69]

So explain me this. If Sky are doping why have other teams not followed suit? After all people have posted that their are all kinds of undetectable EPO like drugs out there. Why is no one else at the same level as a team?

Who says the other teams are not doping?

They all seem to be employing doping doctors, like sky.

My guess is that Sky are at a different level, like USPS, because of their 'special' relationship with the UCI/ASO just like USPS.

Nothing in the sport has changed. Nothing. The blood tests are way down. So where is the disincentive not to dope. My guess is UCI uses the BP to 'control' which teams can do more 'training' and 'team spirit' then others.

I have no evidence for this. But I have no evidence that the sport is clean either.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Who says the other teams are not doping?

They all seem to be employing doping doctors, like sky.

My guess is that Sky are at a different level, like USPS, because of their 'special' relationship with the UCI/ASO just like USPS.

Nothing in the sport has changed. Nothing. The blood tests are way down. So where is the disincentive not to dope. My guess is UCI uses the BP to 'control' which teams can do more 'training' and 'team spirit' then others.

I have no evidence for this. But I have no evidence that the sport is clean either.

When I said followed suit I meant find something stronger/more effective rather than start doping.

Only Armstrong had a relationship with the UCI as far as I am aware no the USPS team? And that hold was possibly related to them not alerting him to the possibility of cancer due to high testosterone (I think RR hinted at this I could be wrong).

If that was the case why would Sky have some riders on higher levels of the suspicion index?

So are you are saying the BP is effective but just being abused by the UCI?

 

[JimmyFingers]

This video is interesting: http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/countdown-to-the-classics/

1. If I wanted to convey team spirit, I would have interviewed the group as a team, not 2 riders from the group individually
2. Geraint comes across as repetitive - but that's the editor's muck up
3. Eddy comes across as entirely uncomfortable. And given his food poisoning, the words he speaks in the interview seem scripted to the nth degree. Could be a case of timing though, granted. ie he got food poisoning post-interview.
4. Neither rider seems happy, relaxed, or full of team spirit, mentioning anyone else or anything. Seems very individualistic. Even if the interviewer is asking pointed questions, I dunno. I've seen much better "team spirit" interviews before. Even when congratulating an actor for a good performance in a movie they invariably mention the director or something. Very subjective, I realise, but still. Just. Dunno. Not reinforcing the Knaven "great team spirit" vibe I would have expected to see, given it's the reason they are going to outclass the peloton.

Riiight, a televised interview with 2 riders is demonstrative of a lack of team spirit within Sky. What exactly are you trying to prove here? That members of Team Sky all hate each other? Or just that Knaven lied about it?

I don't get the relevance at all. He's said what coaches say all the time. Yes I'm sure there are riders that aren't bessie mates but that doesn't necessarily effect team spirit. And in what way does in impact on analysising Sky's results? Oh look they did well in Paris-Nice, everyone must have been getting on, but in T-A they lost so they must have been having arguments?

It's a professional sports team. Professional stands for something i.e. you choose your friends but you don't choose who you work with, at least not to the same degree. But being professional means you get on with it. I don't get on with everyone I work with, but I don't let it effect my work.

Total red herring

 

[xcleigh]

Who says the other teams are not doping?

They all seem to be employing doping doctors, like sky.

My guess is that Sky are at a different level, like USPS, because of their 'special' relationship with the UCI/ASO just like USPS.

Nothing in the sport has changed. Nothing. The blood tests are way down. So where is the disincentive not to dope. My guess is UCI uses the BP to 'control' which teams can do more 'training' and 'team spirit' then others.

I have no evidence for this. But I have no evidence that the sport is clean either.

It's alright Benotti, you don't need evidence, this a forum don't you know, not a court of law. Carry on.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Didn't Contador select the wrong gearing as well? There could have been many others that were not reported as well.

They made bad decisions and lost out because of it in the Vuelta 11. Not making Froome the protected rider was probably another.

Berto usually gets his gearing right to the extent it's possible. The marketing guff on the SRM website recounts how Berto got his mechanic to build him a special rear sprocket - going down to a 32 - for use with a compact up front for an especially steep Giro stage in 2008. From this act came the Weekend Warrior's friend - SRAM Apex!

The problem with very steep gradients (ie pushing 30%) is that in order to keep the cadence at a comfortable level, the resulting VAM - even on a 34*32 - is well over 2000, which is not easy to maintain for very long, whoever you are and whatever is flowing through your veins.

Thus, a few hundred metres of 25% / 30% gradients either requires some serious top-end (which GT contenders are unlikely to have worked on so early in the season) or "weight-lifting" at an unusually low cadence. This weight-lifting requires specific efforts in training or an atypical type of rider.

So, on the steeper gradients, even the pros will find it hard (without specific preparation in training) not to be overgeared, even with the lowest gears that can be fitted.

 

[mikehammer67]

Sigh.... Quoting from the first page's subtitle in all caps, just like the document.

"IN THE MATTER OF PROCEEDINGS BROUGHT UNDER THE ANTI-DOPING RULES OF BRITISH CYCLING FEDERATION...."

BC is the lead, UKAD follows. You don't even have to read past page one of the posted link to understand that.

Maybe you've bought the story the IOC/UCI keeps telling about how powerful the bio-passport really is and so on. That would lead you to believe all kinds of falsehoods based on those sort-of-true-if-I-don't-read-the-standards-but-really-not-actually-true-at-all claims. You wouldn't be the first person mislead.

Don't take my word for it. Go to WADA's site and read the standards. Read UKAD's standards practices. And then, go read the UCI's anti-doping rules. I think you'll come to the same conclusion.

Back to my original point of BC and Sky being intertwined such that the notion that BC will actually enforce some anti-doping rules on Sky would be naive. Not that the UCI would give them the opportunity anyway.

maybe brailsford should be looking in the mirror
when he expresses disappointment with ooc testing on tenerife

or maybe he's not really disappointed

 

[thehog]

Berto usually gets his gearing right to the extent it's possible. The marketing guff on the SRM website recounts how Berto got his mechanic to build him a special rear sprocket - going down to a 32 - for use with a compact up front for an especially steep Giro stage in 2008. From this act came the Weekend Warrior's friend - SRAM Apex!

The problem with very steep gradients (ie pushing 30%) is that in order to keep the cadence at a comfortable level, the resulting VAM - even on a 34*32 - is well over 2000, which is not easy to maintain for very long, whoever you are and whatever is flowing through your veins.

Thus, a few hundred metres of 25% / 30% gradients either requires some serious top-end (which GT contenders are unlikely to have worked on so early in the season) or "weight-lifting" at an unusually low cadence. This weight-lifting requires specific efforts in training or an atypical type of rider.

So, on the steeper gradients, even the pros will find it hard (without specific preparation in training) not to be overgeared, even with the lowest gears that can be fitted.

The issue on this particular stage was the wet road. Most thought they could climb out of the saddle but the back wheel would slip thus loss of power.

Contador had the right gearing its just that he couldn't use it as planned.

These roads had not been used before.

Froome is tactically blind. He was behind on the final climb and should have had himself or at least one team member marking Nibali. Schoolboy error.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

This video is interesting: http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/countdown-to-the-classics/

1. If I wanted to convey team spirit, I would have interviewed the group as a team, not 2 riders from the group individually
2. Geraint comes across as repetitive - but that's the editor's muck up
3. Eddy comes across as entirely uncomfortable. And given his food poisoning, the words he speaks in the interview seem scripted to the nth degree. Could be a case of timing though, granted. ie he got food poisoning post-interview.
4. Neither rider seems happy, relaxed, or full of team spirit, mentioning anyone else or anything. Seems very individualistic. Even if the interviewer is asking pointed questions, I dunno. I've seen much better "team spirit" interviews before. Even when congratulating an actor for a good performance in a movie they invariably mention the director or something. Very subjective, I realise, but still. Just. Dunno. Not reinforcing the Knaven "great team spirit" vibe I would have expected to see, given it's the reason they are going to outclass the peloton.

This is a good post. If they were bonding then were are the hookers and the coke? Perhaps EBH is just having a bad comedown.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It's a professional sports team. Professional stands for something i.e. you choose your friends but you don't choose who you work with, at least not to the same degree. But being professional means you get on with it. I don't get on with everyone I work with, but I don't let it effect my work.

My experience of "team spirit" in sport comes from rowing, where teamwork is essential. If one guy isn't pulling, or is rowing out of time, then the crew is stuffed.

However whilst teamwork is essential, there are many ways to achieve it. A crew may be motivated to contribute to the common good because they are all best mates. Conversely, some crew members may dislike others to the extent that they frequently come to blows out of the boat, but channel that energy into attempting "prove" they are better than the other guy and rowing themselves into oblivion by way of confirmation.

As long as everyone is motivated to to their best for the team - and big bonuses to domestiques if their leader wins is an exceptionally good form of motivation! - and any personal grievances are left in the hotel bedroom, then it doesn't matter if an entire cycling team can't stand the sight of each other.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Contador had the right gearing its just that he couldn't use it as planned.

So Wiggins actually had the right gearing on Angliru. Just he couldn't use it as planned?

 

[thehog]

The issue on this particular stage was the wet road. Most thought they could climb out of the saddle but the back wheel would slip thus loss of power.

Contador had the right gearing its just that he couldn't use it as planned.

These roads had not been used before.

Froome is tactically blind. He was behind on the final climb and should have had himself or at least one team member marking Nibali. Schoolboy error.

Further to this; this is where Sky's power tactics go a awry.

We saw the same at MSR. They all powered to the front then crashed.

They have no way of dealing with the unexpected. Like Nibali's attack.

They are much better in the dry.

Doping makes you stronger not smarter.

Nibs also got in their heads with his "SRM" comment. Sky became defensive. They're embarrassed about their methods...

Smart move from the Shark.

Intelligence beats doping (probably, sometimes).

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The issue on this particular stage was the wet road. Most thought they could climb out of the saddle but the back wheel would slip thus loss of power.

That certainly wouldn't help! The choice in such circumstances is wheel-spinning (if standing), wheelies (if seated) or walking (if sensible).

 

[Benotti69]

When I said followed suit I meant find something stronger/more effective rather than start doping.

Only Armstrong had a relationship with the UCI as far as I am aware no the USPS team? And that hold was possibly related to them not alerting him to the possibility of cancer due to high testosterone (I think RR hinted at this I could be wrong).

Weisel, Stapleton and Armstrong, all owners of Tailwind, ie USPS had a relationship with UCI.

Why not Sky?

Sky have been silent of the total mismanagement of the sport by the UCI.

If that was the case why would Sky have some riders on higher levels of the suspicion index?

So are you are saying the BP is effective but just being abused by the UCI?

No what I am suggesting is that UCI can name anyone they want as doping by using the BP and can 'control' teams to an extent. Similar to what has been alleged that Armstrong had people target tested by Verbruggen and Verbruggen has boasted of being able to make a rider test positive.

Again this is my opinion.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Nibs also got in their heads with his "SRM" comment. Sky became defensive. They're embarrassed about their methods...

Do you think Sky's embarrassment will extend as far as ditching the SRMs? Or is it more likely that they will use them, red-faces and all, in their major races this year?

 

[mattghg]

My experience of "team spirit" in sport comes from rowing, where teamwork is essential. If one guy isn't pulling, or is rowing out of time, then the crew is stuffed.

However whilst teamwork is essential, there are many ways to achieve it. A crew may be motivated to contribute to the common good because they are all best mates. Conversely, some crew members may dislike others to the extent that they frequently come to blows out of the boat, but channel that energy into attempting "prove" they are better than the other guy and rowing themselves into oblivion by way of confirmation.

As long as everyone is motivated to to their best for the team - and big bonuses to domestiques if their leader wins is an exceptionally good form of motivation! - and any personal grievances are left in the hotel bedroom, then it doesn't matter if an entire cycling team can't stand the sight of each other.

Good post.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

My experience of "team spirit" in sport comes from rowing, where teamwork is essential. If one guy isn't pulling, or is rowing out of time, then the crew is stuffed.

However whilst teamwork is essential, there are many ways to achieve it. A crew may be motivated to contribute to the common good because they are all best mates. Conversely, some crew members may dislike others to the extent that they frequently come to blows out of the boat, but channel that energy into attempting "prove" they are better than the other guy and rowing themselves into oblivion by way of confirmation.

As long as everyone is motivated to to their best for the team - and big bonuses to domestiques if their leader wins is an exceptionally good form of motivation! - and any personal grievances are left in the hotel bedroom, then it doesn't matter if an entire cycling team can't stand the sight of each other.

Are you then saying this "team spirit" that differentiates the Sky classics team from every other classics team is so much better that they perform better is simply what you have outlined above? Because it doesn't sound all that special to me. In fact it sounds very run of the mill team spirit-wise.

Knaven is saying it sets them apart. You've described what I could find in an U13 girl's soccer team.

 

[thehog]

Do you think Sky's embarrassment will extend as far as ditching the SRMs? Or is it more likely that they will use them, red-faces and all, in their major races this year?

Not at all.

They'll keep at it.

It works. They win a lot of races.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This video is interesting: http://www.headsetpress.co.uk/countdown-to-the-classics/

1. If I wanted to convey team spirit, I would have interviewed the group as a team, not 2 riders from the group individually
2. Geraint comes across as repetitive - but that's the editor's muck up
3. Eddy comes across as entirely uncomfortable. And given his food poisoning, the words he speaks in the interview seem scripted to the nth degree. Could be a case of timing though, granted. ie he got food poisoning post-interview.
4. Neither rider seems happy, relaxed, or full of team spirit, mentioning anyone else or anything. Seems very individualistic. Even if the interviewer is asking pointed questions, I dunno. I've seen much better "team spirit" interviews before. Even when congratulating an actor for a good performance in a movie they invariably mention the director or something. Very subjective, I realise, but still. Just. Dunno. Not reinforcing the Knaven "great team spirit" vibe I would have expected to see, given it's the reason they are going to outclass the peloton.

It is a fluff video.

Funniest thing is they keep repeating there are now cobblestones there, duh.
Another funny thing is Kerrison last year told SKY were going to Teide to acclimate for high altitude racing in the Tour. Last time I checked there are no high altitudes between Flanders or Roubaix.

And if multiple riders were ill there is no chance you would have concluded that it was doping gone wrong, right?

That could be an explanation, but by all means, do keep on topic. Food poisoning very often comes in multiple numbers.