Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[horsinabout]

I'm still not convinced Sky's doping the way people are claiming here simply for the reason that it would be impossible (probably literally) for them to keep it a secret. What's the point of cheating if you know for nearly certain, everything you won will get taken away eventually anyway in a couple years? Especially with the example of USPS right in front of them.

I've said this before and I haven't heard anything to change my mind. I'm not blind or naive, Sky's successes are remarkable and in cycling extraordinary performances far too often meant cheating, I can see that. But there are real problems with the Sky=Gewiss theory. I do think times have changed in some ways.

Try this...


"The causal factors that should be removed to deter fraud (as described above) are best described in the “Fraud Triangle.” This idea was first coined by Donald R. Cressey. The Fraud Triangle describes three factors that are present in every situation of fraud:"

1.Motive (or pressure) – the need for committing fraud (need for money, etc.);
2.Rationalization – the mindset of the fraudster that justifies them to commit fraud; and
3.Opportunity – the situation that enables fraud to occur (often when internal controls are weak or nonexistent).

 

[BYOP88]

Phew, Sky train is working.

 

[thehog]

Phew, Sky train is working.

They need to go faster! The faster you go the cleaner you are.

 

[mastersracer]

They need to go faster! The faster you go the cleaner you are.

maybe you should watch the race...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

maybe you should watch the race...

I did. Wiggins loosing 26 seconds to climbers on the last two K's. Great training and good for the statistics, no one will beat sky in GT's this year.

 

[mastersracer]

I did. Wiggins loosing 26 seconds to climbers on the last two K's. Great training and good for the statistics, no one will beat sky in GT's this year.

According to this thread, Sky train should have been capable of controlling the race on the final climb. Fact is, they were attacked early and often, riders went up the road, Sky fell apart, Wiggins was isolated and relied on other riders to minimize the gaps.

 

[Ferminal]

Sky would want to start doping before they think they can have two full mountain trains capable of controlling hard days.

Looking more and more like Amadio's mob with every day

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

So Sky aren't doping after all. Looks like those saying Wiggins was just winning against weak opposition last year have been proved right.

 

[the sceptic]

Walsh needs to visit Tenerife more often

 

[SundayRider]

Don't think one result either way proves/disproves much really. Its a pattern. Fact is even 5yrs ago Wiggins would be 50th on GC in this kind of race.

 

[mastersracer]

Don't think one result either way proves/disproves much really. Its a pattern. Fact is even 5yrs ago Wiggins would be 50th on GC in this kind of race.

I'm not claiming they are clean - but it would be nice if the Sky conspiracy theories had an element of falsifiability. Sky failed to control the race today - contrary to the predictions being made all season.

 

[the sceptic]

I'm not claiming they are clean - but it would be nice if the Sky conspiracy theories had an element of falsifiability. Sky failed to control the race today - contrary to the predictions being made all season.

Claiming sky is doping isnt a conspiracy theory, its common sense. One human race doesnt cancel out all the us postal-esque performances.

 

[thehog]

I'm not claiming they are clean - but it would be nice if the Sky conspiracy theories had an element of falsifiability. Sky failed to control the race today - contrary to the predictions being made all season.

It’s my view they are clean. They’re being tested once every 12 weeks with the passport. You’re not going to dope with that sort of OOC going on. I mean it’s not like you can dope in that period and get away with it.

Alas Sky will be ready come the Giro/Tour. The Dawg and Porte will take it to the next level.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'm still not convinced Sky's doping the way people are claiming here simply for the reason that it would be impossible (probably literally) for them to keep it a secret. What's the point of cheating if you know for nearly certain, everything you won will get taken away eventually anyway in a couple years? Especially with the example of USPS right in front of them.

It hasn't been "a couple of years" for Wonderboy/Wiesel/Hein's fraud. Closer to 10. It's as easy to dope in the UK as it is in the U.S. No substantial criminal law against it.

You are going to believe and there's nothing to be done about it. Just don't do a Hein and claim you "had suspicions" when the scandal goes public.

 

[spalco]

Try this...


"The causal factors that should be removed to deter fraud (as described above) are best described in the “Fraud Triangle.” This idea was first coined by Donald R. Cressey. The Fraud Triangle describes three factors that are present in every situation of fraud:"

1.Motive (or pressure) – the need for committing fraud (need for money, etc.);
2.Rationalization – the mindset of the fraudster that justifies them to commit fraud; and
3.Opportunity – the situation that enables fraud to occur (often when internal controls are weak or nonexistent).

I agree with this, but pointing this out is dodging my point. I have absolutely no doubt if Sky are doping, that the controls are no issue for them. But whistleblowers? That's a whole different story.

 

[spalco]

It hasn't been "a couple of years" for Wonderboy/Wiesel/Hein's fraud. Closer to 10. It's as easy to dope in the UK as it is in the U.S. No substantial criminal law against it.

You are going to believe and there's nothing to be done about it. Just don't be surprised or disappointed when this scandal eventually goes public.

But even the most hardcore cynic would have to admit Omerta isn't now what it was then in cycling, no?

I would not be especially surprised if I read "doping scandal at team sky" in the headlines one morning though. In a twisted way that would even prove me right, since I maintain, that if there's a teamwide doping program at Sky they are ****ing stupid and will not get away with it, no matter how miraculous and undectable the stuff is whatever they are using.
Would Brailsford be that careless? I don't think so, but time will tell.

It's not even that I "believe"; I'm just a little more sceptical about these Sky doping theories, than I am about Team Sky itself.

 

[mastersracer]

Claiming sky is doping isnt a conspiracy theory, its common sense. One human race doesnt cancel out all the us postal-esque performances.

it is when you claim (all in this thread):

- they have a team-wide program run by Leinders and now someone else
- they are the only team using a secret, not yet approved undetectable EPO drug
- they have bought off the most respected anti-doping journalist, who is now in charge of team propaganda
-none of the riders have real talent.

 

[BYOP88]

According to this thread, Sky train should have been capable of controlling the race on the final climb. Fact is, they were attacked early and often, riders went up the road, Sky fell apart, Wiggins was isolated and relied on other riders to minimize the gaps.

It's all part of Dave Brailsford's plan. The team was taking too much flak from their performances in P-N and T-A, so Brad will have to lose this race to make it look like they're human and struggling. In six weeks time, these guys will be flying and will pull back a similar break with ease.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I did. Wiggins loosing 26 seconds to climbers on the last two K's. Great training and good for the statistics, no one will beat sky in GT's this year.

Exactly, these races are not important anyway

 

[LaFlorecita]

It's all part of Dave Brailsford's plan. The team was taking too much flak from their performances in P-N and T-A, so Brad will have to lose this race to make it look like they're human and struggling. In six weeks time, these guys will be flying and will pull back a similar break with ease.

Yup in Il Giro and TDF sky will be unbeatable even by the best climbers in the world

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

According to this thread, Sky train should have been capable of controlling the race on the final climb. Fact is, they were attacked early and often, riders went up the road, Sky fell apart, Wiggins was isolated and relied on other riders to minimize the gaps.

So, you are that one lucky mtf that had footage of the peloton after Quintana - such a great TT'er that is, ergo, no threat ever, just like Joaquim Rodriguez - accelerated at 2.5K to go?

Twentysix seconds lost in 2500 metres. Speaking of Richie Porte: woopee doooo man!

SKY/Wigans/Froome are ready to rock and roll baby. No apologist is going to take that away.

Missed ur comments yesterday to be frank, but hey, that would not suit, Ed?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yup in Il Giro and TDF sky will be unbeatable even by the best climbers in the world

If Sky beat the best climbers, it will be due to making bigger gains in TTs than losses made in the hills. Hardly a big surprise if it happens. Plenty of GT have been won by TTers who minimise losses in the hills.

Logically, Sky cannot beat the best climbers at climbing.

 

[thehog]

it is when you claim (all in this thread):

- they have a team-wide program run by Leinders and now someone else
- they are the only team using a secret, not yet approved undetectable EPO drug
- they have bought off the most respected anti-doping journalist, who is now in charge of team propaganda
-none of the riders have real talent.

I thought when Wiggins pushed Valverde on the decent was a good marginal gain.

 

[The Hitch]

If Sky beat the best climbers, it will be due to making bigger gains in TTs than losses made in the hills. Hardly a big surprise if it happens. Plenty of GT have been won by TTers who minimise losses in the hills.

Logically, Sky cannot beat the best climbers at climbing.

Wiggins and Froome were the 2 best climbers in the Tour last year.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Wiggins and Froome were the 2 best climbers in the Tour last year.

That they were. And obviously they didn't beat the best climbers, as you can't beat yourself up a hill.