Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

And what about Kwiatkowski? He went from being good in TT...to being great in everything. Mountains, cobbles, punchy hills, steep hills, sprints, short TTs, long TT's...is there anything this guy can't do?

His sudden improvement is certainly up there with Froome's transformation in 2011.

I dont believe its quite as bad as froome yet, but it certainly has me scratching my head.

 

[the sceptic]

Interesting. Got an SRM file for that?

Of course, Siutsou's career best performance remains his 2010 Tour effort before he got to Sky. He'd spend literally all day driving the peloton for Cav, making Knees and Eisel's efforts last year look tame in comparison, and next day he'd be right up there near the end of the big climbs. Today's effort certainly looked more humanly possible.

Of course it was humanly possible, it was only 6.0w/kg.

But its pretty funny when you think about it. Sky domestique can attack and stay away from a train of 6 astana riders. But when anyone tries to attack the sky train they get brought back immidiately.

 

[Miburo]

I dont believe its quite as bad as froome yet, but it certainly has me scratching my head.

What about the team he's riding in?

Still way more believable than Froome, also way younger. Already showed promise, was a same prodigy as sagan.

 

[Miburo]

didn't you learn your lesson with all those -omg, Porte is going to win by 10 minutes predictions in Pais vasco?

Didn't you learn with "Contador is going to win in pais vasco?"

Besides i wasn't talking about Porte in specific. Henao got second.

I wish he would have won, we would have that entertaining day then

 

[The Hitch]

Didn't you learn with "Contador is going to win in pais vasco?"

Besides i wasn't talking about Porte in specific. Henao got second.

I wish he would have won, we would have that entertaining day then

I said Contador would do well.

You on the other hand were ready to enter portes wikipedia page with the victory and told me to get real when i said it hadnt happened yet.

 

[martinvickers]

Of course it was humanly possible, it was only 6.0w/kg.

But its pretty funny when you think about it. Sky domestique can attack and stay away from a train of 6 astana riders. But when anyone tries to attack the sky train they get brought back immidiately.

True true, but you have to admit, skyborg aside, that Astana train was pants.

 

[DirtyWorks]

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily Team Sky domestique Kanstantin Siutsou - 6 W/kg for 36.5 minutes. Unbelievable

Pretty good. So now at Sky we have Froome, Porte, Wiggins and Siutsou performing at the maximum humanly possible, and Henao will probably soon follow. What a surprise, all in one team.

Take it with an abundance of caution though. We need some numbers to link to. More importantly, this is day 2??? of a stage race. It's possible to hit the golden ratio in this scenario.

It's when the races get into 7-10 day range and climbing at 6 W/Kg where the alarm bells should go off. I think the UCI has restrained doping enough for that alarm not to go off recently, but we'll see if that lasts into 2013 Grand Tours.

Whatever Wiggo is using, it's clear he can't do explosive anything, but can keep applying more power and yet somehow never crack. That's not the same as riding conservatively.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Take it with an abundance of caution though. We need some numbers to link to. More importantly, this is day 2??? of a stage race. It's possible to hit the golden ratio in this scenario.

It's when the races get into 7-10 day range and climbing at 6 W/Kg where the alarm bells should go off. I think the UCI has restrained doping enough for that alarm not to go off recently, but we'll see if that lasts into 2013 Grand Tours.

Whatever Wiggo is using, it's clear he can't do explosive anything, but can keep applying more power and yet somehow never crack. That's not the same as riding conservatively.

Solid, objective analysis, if you don't mind me saying

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

True true, but you have to admit, skyborg aside, that Astana train was pants.

That 'train' was pathetic in skyborg terms. They got Pirazzi and Rolland back.Whoopiedoo

 

[JimmyFingers]

Now wait for the result for FW and we'll have most likely an entertaining day in this thread.

I find this a very curious turn of phrase. You remind me of one of my dogs,always itching for the other dogs to start a fight so he can join in. In case that sounds insulting, he's a very cool dog, most of the time.

 

[keithmcmahon]

True true, but you have to admit, skyborg aside, that Astana train was pants.

I love the approach of Sky in this race. Everyone expected the SkyTrain - witness Stage 1a and today - and it is nowhere to be seen.

I am hardly surprised that Astana didn't know what to do today.

This race is less about physiology and more about psychology - put the doubt into the competitors minds.

The Wiggo SkyTrain will make its' first appearance in the Giro. For now, sow a little doubt in the opposition and give a little glory to teammates.

I am surprised that Kosta was the man for today, perhaps it will be Cataldo's turn in the final stage?

 

[D-Queued]

Take it with an abundance of caution though. We need some numbers to link to. More importantly, this is day 2??? of a stage race. It's possible to hit the golden ratio in this scenario.

It's when the races get into 7-10 day range and climbing at 6 W/Kg where the alarm bells should go off. I think the UCI has restrained doping enough for that alarm not to go off recently, but we'll see if that lasts into 2013 Grand Tours.

Whatever Wiggo is using, it's clear he can't do explosive anything, but can keep applying more power and yet somehow never crack. That's not the same as riding conservatively.

Sure.

But it is a pretty good performance for a newcomer that hasn't had time to exploit all those marginal gains.

He should be doing closer to 7 w/kg come July.

Dave.

 

[martinvickers]

That 'train' was pathetic in skyborg terms. They got Pirazzi and Rolland back.Whoopiedoo

Don't misunderstand me, the Astana team was clearly quite strong - I was actually just thinking more organisationally - Nibali seemed to 'drop' them just as they would have been useful, and they fell off in lumps. It was the 'trian' bit was pants, if you get my meaning...

 

[zlev11]

yeah, Astana with their Giro A-team couldn't even bring back Konstantsin Siutsou without blowing completely to pieces. Rolland and Pirazzi looked like they were about to fall over trying to hang on. the Giro is going to be a travesty.

 

[Ferminal]

IIRC one of the best since Rodriguez Allevard 2011, everyone was quick that day (even Wiggins) so maybe not the best comparison. Tivo this year and Joux Plane are about the same level imo. Going back further Contador in P-N 2009 is probably the best comparison.

Edit: Everyone was fast here too I guess, Astana you take as a given but Pirazzi (+Locatelli!?) was impressive.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Siutsou and them pretty much attacked from the bottom of the climb, though, making his time all the more impressive. Also considering the times he attacked and all the pulling he did ...and then his solo? Much more impressive than any other guy yesterday, IMO. Very little drafting for him, either, compared to Santambrogio and the other ~ 5.95 w/kg guys.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This race is less about physiology and more about psychology - put the doubt into the competitors minds.

I don't know. Guys are accelerating like crazy, he's accelerating too, but just a little and yet, always bringing back the attack repeatedly. That's an **ENORMOUS** power advantage.

Other riders can't do it. It's not that they won't it's that they can't. What Wiggo did was not normal.

We're supposed to believe it was just lying in wait for the right marginal gains and such. That wasn't marginal gains.

On top of all of that, only half the Giro squad is there.

 

[Gregga]

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily Team Sky domestique Kanstantin Siutsou - 6 W/kg for 36.5 minutes. Unbelievable

Remember, Siutsu suspicion index was 8
(M.Rogers was only 7... zero tolerance policy)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Found an interesting parallel.

Sky fans talk about the peloton being weak - particularly in 2012 when Wiggins himself dominated so much of the multi-stage racing. Weak fields and ideal for the rider courses (100km TTing in 2012 TdF) are touted as a large part of the reason for his dominance.

In the summer of 1998, as baseball was still struggling to regain popularity lost during the contentious 1994 players’ strike that caused the World Series to be canceled, a race to break the home-run record transfixed the nation. Over the next three seasons, baseball players across the country hit home runs at unprecedented rates. Although sportswriters pointed to suspicions of "juiced" baseballs and small parks being responsible, there were whispers that illegal performance-enhancing drugs were being used. But home runs were big business, and baseball carried on with a weak performance-drug testing regime.

juiced baseballs <--> weak (easy to hit out of the park) peloton
small parks <--> ideal courses / race make up

Nationalistic wins are big business. Something something UCI are in charge of something something testing.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Sky fans talk about the peloton being weak - particularly in 2012 when Wiggins himself dominated so much of the multi-stage racing. Weak fields and ideal for the rider courses (100km TTing in 2012 TdF) are touted as a large part of the reason for his dominance.

Putting aside the issue of whether weak fields and favourable courses were the main reasons for Wiggo's dominance, it is very hard to argue that the fields he faced weren't weak or that the amount of TTs in the Tour route didn't work to his advantage.

In the Tour, there was a spectacular absence of credible GT contenders. Evans was so much off the pace that he was beaten by his team mate, Valverde never mounted a challenge (either due to early time losses after a crash or to save himself for the Vuelta) and Nibali was stuffed by the amount of TT miles. Andy S and Berto were absent, and the other credible GT contenders were all crocked from the Giro.

So, whilst these factors may be minor relative to doping, there's not much mileage in trying to claim that the opposition was strong and the course didn't favour Wiggo.

(The 1 week races he won all followed the same template: mark rivals in the road stages and gain a small advantage in the TT.)

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Remember, Siutsu suspicion index was 8
(M.Rogers was only 7... zero tolerance policy)

Siutsou's recent transformation makes last year's Rogers look clean, IMO. I mean, Rogers didn't improve much on his best ever performances at the time. The new Siutsou, on the other hand, makes the old doped to the eyeballs Siutsou look like a complete amateur.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

<completely missing the point>

I think you missed the point. Which was very simply: interesting parallels between Sky's pro peloton domination and a doping fiasco, in the BALCO era of MLB.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I think you missed the point. Which was very simply: interesting parallels between Sky's pro peloton domination and a doping fiasco, in the BALCO era of MLB.

Interesting parallel, but just another variant on the theme of "To be successful at elite sport you've probably got to dope". No-one ever explains that their current levels of success are due to doping, so alternative theories will always emerge. The trick is to know the genuine theories from the "cover stories" and your link to Balco Baseball doesn't get us any further down this road re Wiggo.

Are we agreed that Wiggo's opposition was weak last year and the courses - in particularly the Tour - were more suited to him than his rivals? If it helps, I'll reconcede that these points on their own don't prove that he was clean last year.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'd rather wait till the 2013 Giro, and see what happens there.

 

[martinvickers]

Siutsou's recent transformation makes last year's Rogers look clean, IMO. I mean, Rogers didn't improve much on his best ever performances at the time. The new Siutsou, on the other hand, makes the old doped to the eyeballs Siutsou look like a complete amateur.

It was one stage. One stage.

What else has he done recently to tip off your radar?