Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

both great posts which i enjoyed immeasurably, classic examples of the extremes on both sides of the argument and neither making a single word of sense.

lol

............

 

[Netserk]

Italy's greatest gt prospect in a decade

Yeah right

 

[thehog]

So sad that when people come in to sponsor and promote our sport, there are ne'er-do-wells, no hopers, losers like the poster quoted above - who all they seem to contribute to our sport is rudeness to the sponsors and their riders. You people who find it so easy to talk like this on the net should ask yourself: Could I talk like this face to face with the riders, the managers, the coaches? My guess is that you could not. Because what you say has no substance, no basis in fact and is rude - displaying a complete lack of social skills. Where are the positives? What do you do on a daily basis for our sport? Do you help kids? Do you give of your free time? Or do you just sit at home, all lonely and lost, sniping at those good people that achieve?

It's important to note that the children are our future. Let them grow, let them lead the way.

And don't be rude.

Rudeness is the scourge in cycling.

Too much rudeness. Must be stamped out by the UCI rudeness test.

It's my thought that Wiggins bike was bring rude. It deserved to be tossed to the side of the road.

He also needed to be removed after the race in a blackcar like a celebrity because of the rudeness of journalists maybe wanting to ask him a question.

 

[zigmeister]

Not the first time Di2 has let somebody down. I know, everybody is going to got nuts about the SRAM Schleck TDF incident, but hey it happens.

Wiggo was clearly p*ssed, funny how when he tossed the bike it rode itself into the rock wall and stayed up, he was mystified momentarily in the video how that happened. I thought he was nearly about to go over to the bike and pick it up and slam it on the ground for defying his anger with it.

But, mechanics are goofs also. If they didn't have enough 34-50, or whatever he was running, to outfit all bikes, what are you going to do? I guess make sure Wiggo is covered since he was the contender. Yeah, some planning and stuff was missed on that one.

Dude could barely turn the 39-28, or whatever he was running on that second bike, he was doing like 40rpm at times...ridiculous.

But, the initial bike change, and when it wasn't as steep for the next few KM, he was putting out some massive wattage, and the thing is, he doesn't even show it on his face like he is struggling. This is where the suspicion comes in.

I would expect a serious flogging of the mechanics and guys responsible for that though.

 

[JimmyFingers]

He looked bloody good all race, shame we were denied the proper showdown

 

[Galic Ho]

In amidst the white noise you make a good point. Nibali is a doper, proved ferrari client. A Ferrari client climbing specialist who was a talent from the start. And yet Wiggins,a nobody till 2009, and froome, a nobody till 2011 outclimbed him in the tour. Italy's greatest gt prospect in a decade, on a Ferrari programme, and sky at will coughs out "fully clean"riders who he can't even match.

amazing.

Fanini was saying it for years. My colourful piece was merely a by product of once again having to sift through the 300 odd posts made in a day which beat around the bush again and again.

Shorter version. Wiggins cracked and his underlying mood came to the surface. He's not a brooder. He's a temper tantrum type. I found his bike throwing to be quite entertaining. Heck, he even managed to get it to stop upright against the rock face near the road. I was impressed.

Fanini named Nibali and Pellizotti among others. People said he was full of crap or just casually ignored it. When the news leaked out that a big name from the 2009 Giro had dodgy BioPassport readings I knew it was Franco aka Sideshow Bob wannabe. Turns out Fanini was right. I believe he also named Bertagnolli and other former Liquigas riders. Time proved his words to have considerable merit and accuracy. Italian cycling is a whose who of doping in GT's. Cunego, Garzelli, Basso, Di Luca, Pellizotti, Piepoli, Ricco and finally the big name the last few years, Nibali. And Sky turn up in 2012 with not one, but two riders who would smoke any of these guys in their best form and preach that they're clean.

It's the same story told over again on this thread. Nobody defends these Italians because they and we know how the game is played. Two have quite clearly alluded to their doping past. Almost every big name Italian rider has seen Ferrari at least once. Wiggins was smoked by one the other day, in a reversal of the 2012 antics. The other, Basso, was made to look like a chump by Wiggins after he changed bikes. This is the guy who use to wheel suck Armstrong back in 2004 and 2005. The man with two of the most soul crushing Giro wins in history now consigned to a somewhat meh climber. Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

 

[Benotti69]

Paul Kimmage at the whistleblowers event last night compared his 1986 TdF with Wiggins 2006 TdF. Stark!

Kimmage finished 2+ hours down on winner LeMond in a race with 1 rest day.

Wiggins finished 3+ hours down on Landis in a race with 2 rest days.

Both races over 4000kms long.

Walsh talked to Bobby Julich and Julich said that Sky were the 'cleanest' team he ever worked with. Whatever 'cleanest' means for a guy who rode throughout the 'dark era'.

Kimmage said that Walsh being on the inside is not going to learn anything and that he should do what he did with Armstrong, talk to people on the outside.

 

[Galic Ho]

Dopers have been making a joke Joe Average sports fan for God knows how long. I simply said Wiggins and Sky were lying about him having multiple mechanical's. Ask the cyclingnews reporter...they showed them the bikes. Was there anything wrong? The report said nothing on it. Wiggins choked mentally and threw in the towel. Same crap LA did when he returned. Thought he was entitled to the win. The fall is coming. Writing is on the wall. How hard? That's the exciting part.

 

[Galic Ho]

One does not drop chains randomly. It is ones own fault.

Need a mechanic? Deflect some more oh gullible one. I'd hop on the replacement and ride. I'm not the one on the marginal gains plan and over analysing everything to justify my doping. Nor am I washing down, warming up, shaving my nuts, wearing a body suit on top of having my bike arranged specifically for every stage I ride. The gearing on the replacement wasn't absurd. But of course, Wiggins bike(s) both stopped working. What are the statistical odds of that? Better buy a lotto ticket. Be sure to run all your favourite Sky riders dates of birth.

Dropping a chain. Hilarious! You probably hated evil Alberto back in 2010 now didn't you? Poor Andy had the same problem didn't he? Accountability. Your heroes own their mistakes and their behaviour. Wiggins behaved like the git he is and showed how well he takes losing. Not so nice when the proverbial doping fan craps on you is it?

 

[roundabout]

When did Nibali go head to head with Porte?

How does turning pro at 25 relate to the actual talent level?

When did being a consistent top-20 climber in the first GT in the first year of turning pro become a sign of limited ability?

 

[Galic Ho]

You were saying a similar thing about Wiggins last Tour. How did that work out for you?

btw Do you suffer from Napoleon complex?

Uniballer is the one with the one nut. And the height complex. Ask him.

Did I say Wiggins was going to lose?

No. I said he'd set the tone for how he behaves when HE LOSES. He chucks a tantrum. Second big race of the year he's not won. In fact he's stuffed up at both. Note he isn't on the cool team with Froome dawg and Richie Rich. They won't be helping him and he lost old loyal Mick Rogers. Why? Because he is a tool. An A Grade tool in fact. Crap personality. So he gets the second rate Sky domestiques. He's vulnerable and he's shown his true measure when actually challenged.

Nibali has been sniffing him out for quite some time. The Sharks are gathering. If Wigans or Sky make another gaff during the Giro, I expect major tears. Doesn't mean he can't win. Don't be daft, of course he can. It's just not going to be all peaches and cream and sitting on the train for two weeks in the leaders jersey like it was at the Tour. That sparkling personality is ATM a liability. Make no mistake. There have been one or two riders taking their doping game up a notch. Sky fooled the peloton once...they won't get such a free reign this year. Least of all Wiggins.

Oh but you haven't been watching the races have you? My bad Pedro. My bad. Free tip. Only Porte and Froome have shown the goods this year. Wiggins has shown his temper though. You're now up to date. Enjoy the antics. They're definitely coming.

 

[Galic Ho]

When did Nibali go head to head with Porte?

How does turning pro at 25 relate to the actual talent level?

When did being a consistent top-20 climber in the first GT in the first year of turning pro become a sign of limited ability?

The logic behind your questioning is backwards and in contradictory parallel to the other questions asked.

Do yourself a favour. There are 1857 pages in this. Read them all. Your answer(s) are in there.

Thanks for asking the same mindless drivel that has kept this thread running non stop. Your questions are mandatory learning's for any cycling forum. You should know this.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Personally I have no issue saying it to your face or any cyclist who tried pushing their lies on me to my face. I actually have upper body mass and can fight. Hockey player talking. We carry weapons into battle.

I was reading his [Richie Porte's] stats on Wikipedia. He's basically my build, well lighter, but yeah, same deal.

So you are like 'little' Richie Porte but with a hockey stick. You must garner great respect where you live.

Hockey player talking. We carry weapons into battle.

Now this made me chuckle.

Like I said...Napoleon complex.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I know how to ride a bike little girl. One does not drop chains randomly. It is ones own fault.

*cough**cough**cough**cough**cough**cough**cough**cough**cough*

Uh huh.

 

[Galic Ho]

Paul Kimmage at the whistleblowers event last night compared his 1986 TdF with Wiggins 2006 TdF. Stark!

Kimmage finished 2+ hours down on winner LeMond in a race with 1 rest day.

Wiggins finished 3+ hours down on Landis in a race with 2 rest days.

Both races over 4000kms long.

Walsh talked to Bobby Julich and Julich said that Sky were the 'cleanest' team he ever worked with. Whatever 'cleanest' means for a guy who rode throughout the 'dark era'.

Kimmage said that Walsh being on the inside is not going to learn anything and that he should do what he did with Armstrong, talk to people on the outside.

They should be talking to the guys who rode for Sky, did well and are now crap.

Also asking Julich some darn hard questions. If many others can talk, why can't he? Yates deserves some attention as well.

Either way we should sit back and enjoy it. Sky's biggest fault in their grand plan is internal errors and personalities. It's not external. Riders not getting along (we've already seen that), promises that cannot be met (too many Roosters theory) and random s****s (mechanical issues) all play a part.

Sure Wiggins had three uber strong domestiques to drop everyone bar Nibali at last years Tour on every mountain stage, but he won't have that at the Giro. And let's not forget, the Giro is harder than the Tour and one of the favourites is an Italian, who has podiumed there before. What is Wiggins best at the Giro? Nowhere near close. There is a lot of implied shadiness there that is unspoken. Do we hear anyone defending Nibali or saying he is clean? It's the same theme again...some people don't like the function of the Clinic. If they didn't defend Sky to the death, then this thread would not exist. Nobody defends the Italians. Nobody. It's accepted how they roll and they roll juiced. We warned on this thread that going ballistic doping wise simply to WIN was dumb and would be met in force. Well it looks like Nibali has taken his game up a notch and he has home turf advantage. Vincenzo does not need to beat Wiggins...it's the other way around this time.

And yes everyone should be hoping Wiggins stuffs up. It means he rides the Tour EXPECTING to win. I've been saying this since last October FFS. Having him and Froome at one anothers throats will be exceptionally entertaining. Oh but, the fans want peace! Newsflash...they hate one another! Ask their missus'es.

 

[ianfra]

Oh yes! You are so right. And I forgot that 2 + 2 = 5. Silly me

 

[Galic Ho]

So you are like 'little' Richie Porte but with a hockey stick. You must garner great respect where you live.


Now this made me chuckle.

Like I said...Napoleon complex.

No champ. The hockey stick reference is not to threaten. It's to remind. Remind you that I played a sport where you get hit every single game. It's about how we can take a hit. About mental toughness. The exact thing your boy didn't reveal when he threw in the towel. I know it's hard for you Pedro, but you'll forget about this next week. Wiggins had a bad day, okay.

You should play hockey. Very similar to downhill mountain biking. It's for the crazies. Well not entirely. But as I said. It's not about fighting. It's about being able to take a hit. And yes, people do deliberately hit you and aim for you. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of it.

As for Porte. I've said before, he is practically my build and height. I even look a little like him in facial structure, skin tone of course is different. Or did you miss my joking in his thread about how I should have gone to Europe in my early 20s and taken up pro cycling? I guess you didn't see that. Oh well, your loss not mine. Is that your gripe this time? That I'm not duly picking on the Aussie boy as well? Because I have a long history of taking the mickey out of Mick Rogers. I think that has bought me some allotted freebies to exclude the Aussie on Sky just this once.

 

[Galic Ho]

It really was pure accident and some darn manufacturing fault that a bike that retails for more than $10K drops a chain.

I cannot remember the last time I dropped a chain. Then again I know how to shift and to boot I am not riding expensive or even semi epensive gear. Heck it's not even really well maintained and I do not drop chains or have shifting issues. Maybe they can blame this one on Tim Kerrison. Knows how to use swimming techniques to get blokes to ride faster but he never learnt how to shift and he confused Wiggins in there somewhere. Man, where is Julich when you need him? Oh my bad...I forgot, he left because Sky are super duper amazingly clean and they didn't need his pro expertise anymore..

 

[ianfra]

OK. I've said it before and I've said it again. What I can't stand is you guys making an assumption then posting it as fact. I've been in this sport all my life, as a rider, as a journalist, an organiser and as a coach. I know my onions and I don't need to raise my fists. I use my brain. And don't even accuse me of closing my eyes to the reality of the peloton in years gone by: As a trainee journalist all those years ago, my essay and research was about drugs in sport - and I have been putting the finger on Lance Armstrong for many years. If you speak from a basis of facts, proof and knowledge then I'll listen -but everything I've heard so far does not add up to anything more than a lack of reasoning.

 

[ianfra]

No it really was pure accident and some darn manufacturing fault that a bike that retails for more than $10K drops a chain.

I cannot remember the last time I dropped a chain. Then again I know how to shift. Maybe they can blame this one on Tim Kerrison. Knows how to use swimming techniques to get blokes to ride faster but he never learnt how to shift and he confused Wiggins in there somewhere. Man, where is Julich when you need him? Oh my bad...I forgot, he left because Sky are super duper amazingly clean and they didn't need his pro expertise anymore..

Here is a post (above) from a thoroughly nasty piece of work.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

When did Nibali go head to head with Porte?

2010 Giro. 2012 Tour.

How does turning pro at 25 relate to the actual talent level?

It doesn't, but typically super talents are recognised early. I know Richie came from tri, but so did Armstrong and he was already a World Champion on the road long before 25. People who turn pro late and hit the top very quickly are of concern, but no more than any other rider who makes huge and sudden strides.

When did being a consistent top-20 climber in the first GT in the first year of turning pro become a sign of limited ability?

When did I say it was a sign of limited ability? It was a sign of not being as good a climber as Nibali, who is older than him by a monolithic two months.

But even so: Nibali is a guy who has shown top tier talent from a very early age. As a 21-year-old he was 2nd in Coppi e Bartali, 3rd in a mountain stage and 2nd in the long ITT in the Österreich-Rundfahrt, won Plouay, podiumed Eneco and top 10ed Poland. By the time Richie turned pro Nibali had finished top 20 in 3 GTs and top 10 in another. Nibali is a guy who has been connected to the most notorious doping doctor in the sport. And can we really use the "oh yea but everyone was doping then and isn't doping now" argument that keeps being trotted out tiresomely to explain why Wiggins and Froome made such preposterous leaps in performance, when Nibali is riding as strongly as he ever has (including when he won a GT) and has moved to the notoriously clean Astana squad?

So why do Sky have guys (plural) who can beat him clean? The guy is a major talent, and is likely doping, yet these guys who were nobodies until a couple of years ago have just unlocked the secret of better training? That these clean guys who were being stomped all over and could barely make the top 100 of a GT a few years ago suddenly, in the course of a few months, were able to, without recourse to any substance abuse, unlock something that made far greater performance enhancements than the most successful doping doctor has managed to find in a career spanning 32 years? If that's the case, they're total geniuses, to a man, because they've confounded the combined intellects and abilities of an entire globe's worth of sports scientists, doping doctors and management teams, and all without taking a single shortcut while they've been taking every single shortcut available.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

No champ. The hockey stick reference is not to threaten. It's to remind. Remind you that I played a sport where you get hit every single game. It's about how we can take a hit. About mental toughness. The exact thing your boy didn't reveal when he threw in the towel. I know it's hard for you Pedro, but you'll forget about this next week. Wiggins had a bad day, okay.

Are you sure you are not the only person getting hit in the game? I am guessing your 'team mates' also hit you, no?

You should play hockey. Very similar to downhill mountain biking. It's for the crazies. Well not entirely. But as I said. It's not about fighting. It's about being able to take a hit. And yes, people do deliberately hit you and aim for you. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of it.

I played Hockey for my university (in goal so didn't need to worry so much about getting hit). I also used to train in kali (escrima).

As for Porte. I've said before, he is practically my build and height. I even look a little like him in facial structure, skin tone of course is different. Or did you miss my joking in his thread about how I should have gone to Europe in my early 20s and taken up pro cycling? I guess you didn't see that. Oh well, your loss not mine. Is that your gripe this time? That I'm not duly picking on the Aussie boy as well? Because I have a long history of taking the mickey out of Mick Rogers. I think that has bought me some allotted freebies to exclude the Aussie on Sky just this once.

Hey, pick on who you want, Short-round. Why should I be offended?

 

[xcleigh]

One does not drop chains randomly. It is ones own fault.

Need a mechanic? Deflect some more oh gullible one. I'd hop on the replacement and ride. I'm not the one on the marginal gains plan and over analysing everything to justify my doping. Nor am I washing down, warming up, shaving my nuts, wearing a body suit on top of having my bike arranged specifically for every stage I ride. The gearing on the replacement wasn't absurd. But of course, Wiggins bike(s) both stopped working. What are the statistical odds of that? Better buy a lotto ticket. Be sure to run all your favourite Sky riders dates of birth.

Dropping a chain. Hilarious! You probably hated evil Alberto back in 2010 now didn't you? Poor Andy had the same problem didn't he? Accountability. Your heroes own their mistakes and their behaviour. Wiggins behaved like the git he is and showed how well he takes losing. Not so nice when the proverbial doping fan craps on you is it?

"One does not drop chains randomly" classic! Garlic, I think when I've dropped a chain it's been pretty random, I certainly didn't plan it.

Alberto? Andy? nope never hated, never loved, I'm a fan of the sport of cycling, I have no emotional investment in any pro cyclist.

And you really think I think Italians are evil, please, are you 5? Doping is done by all nationalities and character types in case you were wondering.

"Not so nice when the proverbial doping fan craps on you is it?" Don't know, I have no idea what you're talking about?

As for an internship, nah why would I want to work for SKY?

 

[roundabout]

2010 Giro. 2012 Tour.


It doesn't, but typically super talents are recognised early. I know Richie came from tri, but so did Armstrong and he was already a World Champion on the road long before 25. People who turn pro late and hit the top very quickly are of concern, but no more than any other rider who makes huge and sudden strides.


When did I say it was a sign of limited ability? It was a sign of not being as good a climber as Nibali, who is older than him by a monolithic two months.

But even so: Nibali is a guy who has shown top tier talent from a very early age. As a 21-year-old he was 2nd in Coppi e Bartali, 3rd in a mountain stage and 2nd in the long ITT in the Österreich-Rundfahrt, won Plouay, podiumed Eneco and top 10ed Poland. By the time Richie turned pro Nibali had finished top 20 in 3 GTs and top 10 in another. Nibali is a guy who has been connected to the most notorious doping doctor in the sport. And can we really use the "oh yea but everyone was doping then and isn't doping now" argument that keeps being trotted out tiresomely to explain why Wiggins and Froome made such preposterous leaps in performance, when Nibali is riding as strongly as he ever has (including when he won a GT) and has moved to the notoriously clean Astana squad?

So why do Sky have guys (plural) who can beat him clean? The guy is a major talent, and is likely doping, yet these guys who were nobodies until a couple of years ago have just unlocked the secret of better training? That these clean guys who were being stomped all over and could barely make the top 100 of a GT a few years ago suddenly, in the course of a few months, were able to, without recourse to any substance abuse, unlock something that made far greater performance enhancements than the most successful doping doctor has managed to find in a career spanning 32 years? If that's the case, they're total geniuses, to a man, because they've confounded the combined intellects and abilities of an entire globe's worth of sports scientists, doping doctors and management teams, and all without taking a single shortcut while they've been taking every single shortcut available.

2010 was a guy riding his first GT versus a guy who had been pro for longer than Porte had been focusing on the road.

It's only logical that one of them would have a lot more room for improvement than the other.

In 2012 one of them was a helper. And Nibali will probably still beat Porte ceteris parebus in just about any GT.

They do? Peraud was known as a talent for years before he turned pro. Ultimately it's individual circumstances that decide.

Nobody is doubting that Nibali was much better than Porte in 2010. The question is what is the point of comparisons between a rider who had been a pro for 5 years and the guy who raced small amateur races in Italy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No it really was pure accident and some darn manufacturing fault that a bike that retails for more than $10K drops a chain.

I cannot remember the last time I dropped a chain. Then again I know how to shift and to boot I am not riding expensive or even semi epensive gear. Heck it's not even really well maintained and I do not drop chains or have shifting issues.

I take it you don't have Di2 then? Kinda weird of you to say it's Wiggins' own fault for dropping a chain when it's a Di2 bike. I don't think he dropped a chain either, but regardless.

No idea about Di2, blames rider when it doesn't work = unfortunate.