Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[roundabout]

To be fair, this is an English language forum.

Of course an English team, who even has a 'speak English' rule, is going to garner more attention here.

Couple that with anglo fans who are easily achieving levels of blind support that have only been seen by one other team/rider, and the number of posts is pretty understandable.

What's the post count on Armstrong threads? Does it matter? The point is we're speaking in English on an English language forum in a thread that is titled "Sky", an English team.

Start another contentious thread that can dissect the minutae of "foreign" teams, and fill it full of thousands of posts regarding that team, if it'll make you feel better...

You make a good point about the language bias. My threads on Hoste and Van Dijk barely add up to 10 posts together. And yet despite the relative obviousness of those cases, there are some interesting implications, but no takers.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You make a good point about the language bias. My threads on Hoste and Van Dijk barely add up to 10 posts together. And yet despite the relative obviousness of those cases, there are some interesting implications, but no takers.

Now imagine you are posting this is in a Dutch or Belgian forum.

How would you feel if Dutch or Belgian posters started accusing you of anti-Dutch / anti-Belgian sentiment, because you are calling out riders from those nationalities?

When you point out you are Dutch or Belgian yourself, the response could quite easily be you are full of "self loathing".

Welcome to the Sky thread(s).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

@22, I am guessing the following things are important for recovery:

* family
* familiar surroundings
* girlfriend / partner close by
* familiar food
* access to coach and medical staff
* avoiding bilharzia


http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17576_9048967,00.html

Swift based himself in Cape Town for much of November to step up his recovery following shoulder surgery in September, and will join up with his team-mates in Mallorca during the first week of December.

His trip to the Southern Hemisphere however, was not memorable solely for his improved condition, but for a friendship he struck up with one of Africa’s brightest cycling talents.

Ahhhh. We're expanding cycling into Africa, so sending one of our riders across scores brownie points with the UCI mandate. Gotcha.

 

[The Hitch]

You make a good point about the language bias. My threads on Hoste and Van Dijk barely add up to 10 posts together. And yet despite the relative obviousness of those cases, there are some interesting implications, but no takers.

How many minutes did those 2 guys win by in their TDF victories?

 

[The Hitch]

Lets bare in mind that while there are more posts against Sky in the clinic than against any other team, there are also probably 100 times more articles in the media about how grateful all cycling fans should be to Brailsford Wiggins and Froome for making cycling clean than there are similar articles for any other rider or team and there are probably a thousand times more tweets about how great it is that Sky won clean including from high profile "journos" than for any other rider.

It works both ways. Its not just that there are a lot of people posting they are doping. There are also a lot of people especially in high up positions who feel the constant need to tell the world that Sky are clean

 

[CycloAndy]

Lets bare in mind that while there are more posts against Sky in the clinic than against any other team, there are also probably 100 times more articles in the media about how grateful all cycling fans should be to Brailsford Wiggins and Froome for making cycling clean than there are similar articles for any other rider or team and there are probably a thousand times more tweets about how great it is that Sky won clean including from high profile "journos" than for any other rider.

It works both ways. Its not just that there are a lot of people posting they are doping. There are also a lot of people especially in high up positions who feel the constant need to tell the world that Sky are clean

The points about the English speaking bias and the success bias are fair points. I thought the English speaking bias would also manifest as a Sky supporter bias within the forum which I'm not certain is true (although admittedly this may be because of the relatively recent formation of the squad and the fact that Murdoch is a horrendous blight on society!).

On to a related issue, why if people acknowledge the other teams dope aswell do people think that Sky are more successful? More doping (per rider), more riders doping or better doping? Or even equal doping combined with better training/riders?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The points about the English speaking bias and the success bias are fair points. I thought the English speaking bias would also manifest as a Sky supporter bias within the forum which I'm not certain is true (although admittedly this may be because of the relatively recent formation of the squad and the fact that Murdoch is a horrendous blight on society!).

On to a related issue, why if people acknowledge the other teams dope aswell do people think that Sky are more successful? More doping (per rider), more riders doping or better doping? Or even equal doping combined with better training/riders?

You may be a bit mistaken that all posters in the Clinic are Anglo.

We may be posting in English, but that doesn't mean we are English/Irish/Aussie/American/Scottish/Canadian/Kiwi etc etc.

Just like Sky, CN has a rule for posting. English only.

 

[Ferminal]

Because even Contador's biggest fans *ahem* have accepted he's a dirty cheater.

As long as he doesn't test positive again or something like that there is nothing to discuss anymore.

For team sky there obviously is.

Surely you have grounds to defend him given his depreciating abilities, and the "clean era" we are now in?

 

[DirtyWorks]

On to a related issue, why if people acknowledge the other teams dope aswell do people think that Sky are more successful? More doping (per rider), more riders doping or better doping? Or even equal doping combined with better training/riders?

"better training" only lasts a season at best before whatever method is discovered is known by most in the elite end of the racing.

UCI and ASO helping any way they can is at least as powerful as better doping. We know that's happened already, so it is not controversial to suggest a grand tour podium is rigged at some events.

 

[RownhamHill]

Surely you have grounds to defend him given his depreciating abilities, and the "clean era" we are now in?

I'll defend Contador, and I've never accepted he's a dirty cheater - at least not in 2010 when he got popped (I'll draw a veil over 07. . .). Reading the CAS verdict was so eye-opening - the idea that he'd gone to the trouble of spinning the blood out, taking two transfusions over a couple of days, but had been stupid enough to get the plasma donated from someone who themselves was on a fairly serious Clen regime (or whatever the exact details of the WADA theory were) just seems, well, implausible. (Which is incidentally what CAS thought of the theory too.)

Would be great to find out exactly what was going on with that - my money has always been on Lance somehow!

 

[sniper]

Lets bare in mind that while there are more posts against Sky in the clinic than against any other team, there are also probably 100 times more articles in the media about how grateful all cycling fans should be to Brailsford Wiggins and Froome for making cycling clean than there are similar articles for any other rider or team and there are probably a thousand times more tweets about how great it is that Sky won clean including from high profile "journos" than for any other rider.

It works both ways. Its not just that there are a lot of people posting they are doping. There are also a lot of people especially in high up positions who feel the constant need to tell the world that Sky are clean

yes.
let's take Leinders.
It became such a huge story mainly also because Sky/brailsford had put themselves on the high horse stating they wouldn't hire previous cycling docs.

 

[JimmyFingers]

So now the debate on this thread is now debating why this thread is so long, and people are talking about Sky, to rationalise why they talk about Sky so much?

Loving the irony. What can we talk about next to string it out over the winter?

 

[ebandit]

?

Loving the irony

don't forget the outrage of brits...........that's always repeating itself

brits hate doubters pointing the finger at team sky............the fact that as

team sky is british so a greater proportion of fans are british is ignored

I'm british and will be outraged if there is something greater than suspicion

Mark L

 

[LaFlorecita]

Surely you have grounds to defend him given his depreciating abilities, and the "clean era" we are now in?

Don't get me started

 

[red_flanders]

Pretty good summary of the team last year: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2013-report-card-team-sky

...

It’s of course unfair to be too critical of a team that won the Tour de France for a second consecutive year – the first squad to do so since US Postal or Telekom depending on your interpretation of the record books – but Chris Froome was a near unbeatable force in multi-day events, collecting stage race titles from the start of the season, all the way through to his Tour win in July.

In fact Froome won every stage race he started leading up to the Tour 2013, bar Tirreno-Adriatico, with wins in Oman, Criterium International, Romandie, and the Dauphine, all before the team’s marquee outing in July.

Careful the company you keep...

 

[DirtyWorks]

... and people are talking about Sky, to rationalise why they talk about Sky so much?

Except it's not "people." It's press and the content is more like propaganda, than anything else and like the Armstrong era, widespread.

 

[DirtyWorks]

team sky is british so a greater proportion of fans are british is ignored

Regarding "fans" the UCI has their dedicated core customers they can rely on for viewing broadcasts. I'd call those fans.

What IMHO, you are talking about is viewers. It includes the recreational riders who will pay to do the Sky charity/fun ride, buy the Sky kit. Bigger still, the ones ASO/UCI really want are the ones that will tune into their events. Maybe even go see it as many did in 2013 in London.

The goal is UCI/ASO can sell events to a Tourism board and they can't do that with fans. They can do it and have done it with viewers.

 

[CycloAndy]

don't forget the outrage of brits...........that's always repeating itself

brits hate doubters pointing the finger at team sky............the fact that as

team sky is british so a greater proportion of fans are british is ignored

I'm british and will be outraged if there is something greater than suspicion

Mark L

I like to see your scepticism. As an Englishman living in Belfast I'm well aware of the downsides of one-eyed British nationalism and unquestioned loyalty. I treat everything with scepticism, my point was more that they seem to get a disproportionate amount of criticism/scepticism relative to other teams (often from supporters of riders who deserve equal scepticism), not that they get too much criticism/scepticism per se.

 

[DirtyWorks]

... my point was more that they seem to get a disproportionate amount of criticism/scepticism relative to other teams..

At least with Wiggins you could believe the guy had some TT strength/talent. Only later to be transformed into a hill climbing grand tour destroyer finishing right behind a bunch of dopers doping and then himself gets on the podium raised quite a few doubts.

Per red_flanders post, Sky/Froome win something every stage race for the better part of 6 months then cap it off with total destruction of the TdF field with *zero* lower-ranked results suggesting he's come by this power as a genetic gift raises quite a few doubts.

Not done yet: Wiggins, Froome, and now Porte showing as much power as Froome in the most perfect procession of grand tour winners never seen before in the history of trade team grand tour racing should raise a few doubts.

Still not done: The fact the money made by the UCI during the Olympics with Wiggo and Co slaying fields followed by ASO getting quite a bit of money from British Tourism AND a brand new ASO-owned World Tour race in Britain. That is the luckiest series of payouts since a 7x winner of the TdF.

It goes on and on like that with Sky. One incredible, impossible, win right after another from an organization and a sports federation that can't stop showing how poorly run they really are.

Perfectly normal. Cleanest peloton ever. Never tested positive.

 

[RownhamHill]

AND a brand new ASO-owned World Tour race in Britain.

Oooh, I'd missed this - what is the new British WT race?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Oooh, I'd missed this - what is the new British WT race?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/welcome2yorkshire-plan-for-three-day-worldtour-race-in-2015

 

[Alphabet]

23 thousand posts in 18 months in this thread alone is probably more than all posts on Contador during nearly 5 years of this forum

There are more posters now than ever before.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Senza titolo

(Queen+Brad)

 

[RownhamHill]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/welcome2yorkshire-plan-for-three-day-worldtour-race-in-2015

Oh.

So rather than an actual new WT race, we're talking about an aspiration for a prospective race that could never happen, and might not be WT if it does.

That was disappointing.

 

[oldcrank]

Not done yet: Wiggins, Froome, and now Porte showing as much power as Froome in the most perfect procession of grand tour winners never seen before in the history of trade team grand tour racing should raise a few doubts.

I think you will find the Renault-Elf-Gitane "procession of grand tour winners"
is much more impressive than the two that Team SKY/21st CENTURY FOX/
PINARELLO/RAPHA have won, but perhaps your knowledge of the "history of
trade team grand tour racing" does not extend that far back, my friend.