Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[SundayRider]

Comparison of Wiggins to Armstrong blood values in 09 Tour.
'Lance in 09 went from 15.5 to 16.1 HGB during the tour. Wiggins went from 14.4 to 15.2 from first to second rest day.'

 

[Graham_S]

Comparison of Wiggins to Armstrong blood values in 09 Tour.
'Lance in 09 went from 15.5 to 16.1 HGB during the tour. Wiggins went from 14.4 to 15.2 from first to second rest day.'

What does that actually mean?

 

[SundayRider]

What does that actually mean?

Hemoglobin - very unusual for it to rise after a hard weeks cycling.

 

[ebandit]

pathetic

You're right. What are the odds on Michael Phelps to win the Tour de France ?

hitch as you are well aware that is a pathetic comparison.......if phelps was to become a cyclist he would be a sprinter

wheras nothing unusual for a pursuiter to become a road cyclist or vise versa

my post was merely adding reality to a members observation that wiggo had never shown ANY ability before 09

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

What does that actually mean?

It usually means doping. But no doubt Sky will claim machine error, just like Vaughters did with Hesjedal's in the Giro he won

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hemoglobin - very unusual for it to rise after a hard weeks cycling.

Ya, that's just "science" though.

 

[SundayRider]

hitch as you are well aware that is a pathetic comparison.......if phelps was to become a cyclist he would be a sprinter

wheras nothing unusual for a pursuiter to become a road cyclist or vise versa

my post was merely adding reality to a members observation that wiggo had never shown ANY ability before 09

Mark L

IF you look at my post I actually said he had never shown any ability to be anything other than a member of the gruppetto in a grand tour.

 

[Graham_S]

It usually means doping. But no doubt Sky will claim machine error, just like Vaughters did with Hesjedal's in the Giro he won

So.... forgive me for a silly question. Why wasn't Wiggins banned?

 

[Benotti69]

So.... forgive me for a silly question. Why wasn't Wiggins banned?

Why wasn't Armstrong banned in '09?

Why did UCI try and cover up Contador's Clen positive?

Wiggin's 'never tested positive'

 

[del1962]

Comparison of Wiggins to Armstrong blood values in 09 Tour.
'Lance in 09 went from 15.5 to 16.1 HGB during the tour. Wiggins went from 14.4 to 15.2 from first to second rest day.'

I am no expert on blood values, but would the fact there where 3 mountain stages prior to the first rest day, and only one and a hilly stage between the rest days have some effect, Wiggins would between the rest days have been a protected rider so flat stages would have been relatively easy with his teammates keeping him out of the wind most of the day.

 

[The Hitch]

Think we can rule out A Schleck being clean also.

We can also rule out Wiggins being clean, I was operating under Sky's beloved Lance Armstrong logic of - never tested positive = clean.

 

[Alphabet]

So.... forgive me for a silly question. Why wasn't Wiggins banned?

Presumably because an unusual rise in haemoglobin value isn't enough on it's own to sanction somebody? At the judicial level, you naturally need a watertight case to prosecute somebody, and having just one suspicious indicator isn't going to give you that.

At the level of social media, that's enough to condemn somebody, and I for one think that to be fair enough (especially since there was no real explanation for the incident).

 

[The Hitch]

hitch as you are well aware that is a pathetic comparison.......if phelps was to become a cyclist he would be a sprinter

wheras nothing unusual for a pursuiter to become a road cyclist or vise versa

Nope, it is as unusual for a olympic pursuiter pursuiter to become the 2nd best climber in the world as it is for an olympic swimmer.

 

[The Hitch]

I am no expert on blood values, but would the fact there where 3 mountain stages prior to the first rest day, and only one and a hilly stage between the rest days have some effect, Wiggins would between the rest days have been a protected rider so flat stages would have been relatively easy with his teammates keeping him out of the wind most of the day.

lol wut, so slipstream only works if one is the designated team leader? Lol Brailsford logic right there.

Anyway Armstrong was also protected so your point is redundant.

 

[del1962]

lol wut, so slipstream only works if one is the designated team leader? Lol Brailsford logic right there.

Anyway Armstrong was also protected so your point is redundant.

How is the point redundant, where armstrong's differnces over the same period?

So are you saying Wiggins GC position after the first rest day didn't mean he would be protected?

 

[Graham_S]

Presumably because an unusual rise in haemoglobin value isn't enough on it's own to sanction somebody?).

And how "unusual" is that rise?

 

[SundayRider]

And how "unusual" is that rise?

Unusual enough that he has never posted his blood values since then

 

[The Hitch]

How is the point redundant, where armstrong's differnces over the same period?

So are you saying Wiggins GC position after the first rest day didn't mean he would be protected?

You clearly don't understand cycling. Being "protected" is not some magical spell that automatically saves people 30% energy.

On a flat stages 90% of the peloton spends the whole day behind someone else, and often soft pedalling and having chats.

Unless you are A) in the breakaway B) getting bottles or C) pulling at the front you spend the whole day in shelter. It doesn't make 1 difference if you are "protected" or not. Contador and others who really are protected sometimes don't even sit anywhere near their teammates on a flat stage. They ride around talking to eachother. Wiggins spent much of the tour side by side having long chats with his hero Lance.

Everyone is protected on a flat stage numbnuts. It doesn't make a difference where you are on gc.

Maybe an image like this will help you understand why.

According to you only someone who has been told they are the designated team leader, will save energy in that picture.

According to me everyone will. Why? Because they are sat in slipstream.

 

[del1962]

Unusual enough that he has never posted his blood values since then

Does that mean anything though?

Clean or not clean, if he got grief fairly or unfairly he is less likely to publish them again

 

[del1962]

You clearly don't understand cycling. Being "protected" is not some magical spell that automatically saves people 30% energy.

On a flat stages 90% of the peloton spends the whole day behind someone else, and often soft pedalling and having chats.

Unless you are A) in the breakaway B) getting bottles or C) pulling at the front you spend the whole day in shelter. It doesn't make 1 difference if you are "protected" or not. Contador and others who really are protected sometimes don't even sit anywhere near their teammates on a flat stage. They ride around talking to eachother. Wiggins spent much of the tour side by side having long chats with his hero Lance.

Everyone is protected on a flat stage numbnuts. It doesn't make a difference where you are on gc.

Maybe an image like this will help you understand why.

According to you only someone who has been told they are the designated team leader, will save energy in that picture.

According to me everyone will. Why? Because they are sat in slipstream.

Thanks for the condescending tone, but none of that in anyway invalidates the point about being pre-demoninantly flat stages between the rest days, compared to 3 mountain stages prior to the first rest day.

 

[red_flanders]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. A lot there to digest. Everything I had previously read suggested cyclists were left to themselves for too much of their training.

It would be great if you could address some of the responses when you've digested it. You put a lot of reasons why you think they're clean out there in your first post. It would be polite to address the responses.

 

[Red Lobster]

Yep, certainly a big tick in favour of Wiggo being clean.

Er, how so?

 

[ebandit]

best

Nope, it is as unusual for a olympic pursuiter pursuiter to become the 2nd best climber in the world as it is for an olympic swimmer.

ha ha! wiggo coped with the climbs he were never the 2nd best or even near

as usual you twist things to try and appear clever

Mark L

 

[ebandit]

ha ha

IF you look at my post I actually said he had never shown any ability to be anything other than a member of the gruppetto in a grand tour.

ha ha ! being multi olympic gold medallist does suggest capacity to improve in other areas of cycling

Mark L

 

[The Hitch]

ha ha! wiggo coped with the climbs he were never the 2nd best or even near

as usual you twist things to try and appear clever

Mark L

My bad, you're right, nowhere near

Final mountain stage of Tour de France

ESP VALVERDE BELMONTE Alejandro MOV 4h12'11" 80
2. GBR FROOME Chris SKY 19" 50
3. GBR WIGGINS Bradley SKY 19" 35
4. FRA PINOT Thibaut FDJ 22" 25
5. FRA ROLLAND Pierre EUC 26" 15
6. BEL VAN DEN BROECK Jurgen LTB 26" 10
7. ITA NIBALI Vincenzo LIQ 37" 5
8. USA VAN GARDEREN Tejay BMC 54" 3
9. USA HORNER Chris RNT 01'02" 2
10. IRL MARTIN Daniel GRS 01'11" 1
11. GER KLÖDEN Andreas RNT 01'14" 0
12. IRL ROCHE Nicolas ALM 01'30" 0
13. BEL VANENDERT Jelle LTB 01'39" 0
14. AUS PORTE Richie SKY 01'46" 0
15. RUS MENCHOV Denis KAT 01'55" 0
16. FRA KERN Christophe EUC 02'10" 0
17. SLO BRAJKOVIC Janez AST 02'10" 0
18. AUS EVANS Cadel BMC 02'10"