Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ventoux Boar]

Something Froome has always done for no benefit. So a furphy at best.

It's not impossible that he took advantage of his natural 'style', adding a breathing element, but I agree that it's a wildly speculative notion.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Sorry mate, that was not my moment of conversion by Ventoux Boar on the road to Damascus.
Your posts, while welcome, are stretching the boundaries of what I think is required to explain the dominance of one team on tours.
- Improvement in coaching etc will bring gains but at the top end level not enough to transform pack fodder to super domestique or campionissimo.
- Breathing efficiency improvement, I’m not buying that one. Has Froome even done a VO2 max test???
- Obree bike positioning, from what I understand Froome didn’t go near a wind tunnel for his TT positioning

Thanks for reply. I'm not trying to explain any team's dominance; just questioning whether their winning justifies the hyperbole.

The pack fodder to campionissimo transformation is again exaggerated, IMO, and ignores the potential of coaching and management. While I agree that Froome is unusual in many respects, I disagree that the only possible explanation for his wins is doping.

(Obree is 'just' an example of a rider achieving results in non-traditional ways, rather than any specific positioning point.)

 

[The Hitch]

No one is saying you can't say what you want, there was just simething in your comment in thisCN Article that looked like those of a clinic regular, perhaps one currently banned, of course I could be wrong

He's a sockpuppet of what? One can't just be a sockpuppet in and of itself. Can only be a sockpuppet of a user. Which user do you think he is a sockpuppet of?

 

[martinvickers]

He's a sockpuppet of what? One can't just be a sockpuppet in and of itself. Can only be a sockpuppet of a user. Which user do you think he is a sockpuppet of?

At a guess, the recently banned BroDeal springs to mind as one possiblity...

 

[Eshnar]

I'll repeat it once again.

I have to say, I'm starting to get very annoyed. Maybe we should set the sockpuppet accusations as a bannable offence?
STOP THAT. Understood?
If you want to point out something like that, either report it or PM a mod. Doing it publicly is NOT good.

 

[deeno1975]

Thanks for reply. I'm not trying to explain any team's dominance; just questioning whether their winning justifies the hyperbole.

The pack fodder to campionissimo transformation is again exaggerated, IMO, and ignores the potential of coaching and management. While I agree that Froome is unusual in many respects, I disagree that the only possible explanation for his wins is doping.

(Obree is 'just' an example of a rider achieving results in non-traditional ways, rather than any specific positioning point.)

Your inputs are welcome but my bottom line is that I want to see racing that I can believe in. Raced for years as an amateur and followed pro cycling for years. I've seen all the "super performances" of yester year built upon a foundation of deceit and chemicals. Been to France and watched Armstrong and crew take the proverbial pee pee for a decade.

Now what do I see, I see a guy on the Tour of Oman dish out a performance that is either the performance of a true great physiological champion or just another vial creation. What really alarms me is that his team in another race (Vuelta a Andalucia) destroy the field and have 5 guys left out of a dwindling bunch of 13/14 riders. So this weary cycling fan is asked to believe one more time… please enlighten me but don’t give me breathing technique, pillows, see through clothing, warm downs, pineapple juice, nutella, hocus pocus, bla bla because it just doesn't work for me. I need some convincing…

 

[lllludo]

(Obree is 'just' an example of a rider achieving results in non-traditional ways, rather than any specific positioning point.)

Although Obree had implemented many upgrades on his bike I don't think he has ever been tested for EPO. So may be he has achieved results in a traditional way for 93-94.

 

[del1962]

Your inputs are welcome but my bottom line is that I want to see racing that I can believe in. Raced for years as an amateur and followed pro cycling for years. I've seen all the "super performances" of yester year built upon a foundation of deceit and chemicals. Been to France and watched Armstrong and crew take the proverbial pee pee for a decade.

Now what do I see, I see a guy on the Tour of Oman dish out a performance that is either the performance of a true great physiological champion or just another vial creation. What really alarms me is that his team in another race (Vuelta a Andalucia) destroy the field and have 5 guys left out of a dwindling bunch of 13/14 riders. So this weary cycling fan is asked to believe one more time… please enlighten me but don’t give me breathing technique, pillows, see through clothing, warm downs, pineapple juice, nutella, hocus pocus, bla bla because it just doesn't work for me. I need some convincing…

Really, they destroyed the field, I must have watched a different race

 

[peloton]

Your inputs are welcome but my bottom line is that I want to see racing that I can believe in. Raced for years as an amateur and followed pro cycling for years. I've seen all the "super performances" of yester year built upon a foundation of deceit and chemicals. Been to France and watched Armstrong and crew take the proverbial pee pee for a decade.

Now what do I see, I see a guy on the Tour of Oman dish out a performance that is either the performance of a true great physiological champion or just another vial creation. What really alarms me is that his team in another race (Vuelta a Andalucia) destroy the field and have 5 guys left out of a dwindling bunch of 13/14 riders. So this weary cycling fan is asked to believe one more time… please enlighten me but don’t give me breathing technique, pillows, see through clothing, warm downs, pineapple juice, nutella, hocus pocus, bla bla because it just doesn't work for me. I need some convincing…

Well said.

What bothers me most about Froome & Sky is that we never saw any glimpse of his MASSIVE talent, nothing, until Dr. Leinders was brought in.
His gigantic jump in performance in just couple of months (Tour of Austria -11 to La Vuelta) is something that was, to put it mildly, very surprising.
And I've never before seen riders being able to peak for nearly the whole season (Wiggins -12, Froome -13).
If Walsh says the Vuelta -12 podium finishers were doping because they climbed so fast, then, excuse me, what Froome is doing is beyond ridiculous.

 

[MartinGT]

Well said.

What bothers me most about Froome & Sky is that we never saw any glimpse of his MASSIVE talent, nothing, until Dr. Leinders was brought in.
His gigantic jump in performance in just couple of months (Tour of Austria -11 to La Vuelta) is something that was, to put it mildly, very surprising.
And I've never before seen riders being able to peak for nearly the whole season (Wiggins -12, Froome -13).
If Walsh says the Vuelta -12 podium finishers were doping because they climbed so fast, then, excuse me, what Froome is doing is beyond ridiculous.

Is that true?

If it is, thats pure laughable and calling the kettle black and just shows how much he is on Sky's paybook.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Your inputs are welcome but my bottom line is that I want to see racing that I can believe in. Raced for years as an amateur and followed pro cycling for years. I've seen all the "super performances" of yester year built upon a foundation of deceit and chemicals. Been to France and watched Armstrong and crew take the proverbial pee pee for a decade.

Now what do I see, I see a guy on the Tour of Oman dish out a performance that is either the performance of a true great physiological champion or just another vial creation. What really alarms me is that his team in another race (Vuelta a Andalucia) destroy the field and have 5 guys left out of a dwindling bunch of 13/14 riders. So this weary cycling fan is asked to believe one more time… please enlighten me but don’t give me breathing technique, pillows, see through clothing, warm downs, pineapple juice, nutella, hocus pocus, bla bla because it just doesn't work for me. I need some convincing…

Well, you seem to have already made up your mind, and I would broadly agree.
And if you were in France during the LA years then I assume you knew it was not real, and enjoyed the spectacle for what it is.

There will always be riders who will dope, always.(The hope is they get caught quickly)
So, what would convince you?

 

[peloton]

Is that true?

If it is, thats pure laughable and calling the kettle black and just shows how much he is on Sky's paybook.

Yeah, he said that in a forum etc. I saw (think Hitch saw it as well) a year or so ago.

Talk about trying to have it both ways...

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Although Obree had implemented many upgrades on his bike I don't think he has ever been tested for EPO. So may be he has achieved results in a traditional way for 93-94.

I suppose nobody is above suspicion...

"I still feel I was robbed of part of my career," he says. "I was signed up to ride in the Prologue of the Tour back in 1995, but it was made very obvious to me I would have to take drugs. I said no, no way, and I was sacked by my team. So there I was, 11 years later, sitting there waiting for the Tour cyclists to come by, and something welled up in me. I just disappeared."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/graeme-obree-i-was-driven-by-fear-411453.html

"But are you saying Brian Laudrup cannae play in Europe?"
***Abundant inappropriate language in link***

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah, he said that in a forum etc. I saw (think Hitch saw it as well) a year or so ago.

Talk about trying to have it both ways...

Have you a link to it? I have seen it repeated (and I read Hitchs opinion) - so, I would actually like to read or hear what Walsh said.

 

[deeno1975]

Well, you seem to have already made up your mind, and I would broadly agree.
And if you were in France during the LA years then I assume you knew it was not real, and enjoyed the spectacle for what it is.

There will always be riders who will dope, always.(The hope is they get caught quickly)
So, what would convince you?

A certain part of me believed that Armstrong et al were doing it clean but as time went on my doubts increased and then by 2003 i saw the light. His performances and those of his team mates could not be clean. Dominance in the mountains, dominance in the TT's and then a team that could sit at the front for hour after hour, day after day and still be in the mix at the end. Utter dominance and utter farce...

What would start to convince me is less of what I saw in the early 2000's, instead I see a guy who should no promise what so ever dominate every tt and mountain stages he enters and his team applying the same tactics as US Postal. Only this time it is suppose to be clean. More human and believable performances.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

 

[MartinGT]

A certain part of me believed that Armstrong et al were doing it clean but as time went on my doubts increased and then by 2003 i saw the light. His performances and those of his team mates could not be clean. Dominance in the mountains, dominance in the TT's and then a team that could sit at the front for hour after hour, day after day and still be in the mix at the end. Utter dominance and utter farce...

What would start to convince me is less of what I saw in the early 2000's, instead I see a guy who should no promise what so ever dominate every tt and mountain stages he enters and his team applying the same tactics as US Postal. Only this time it is suppose to be clean. More human and believable performances.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Aye but Sky fans do say he showed promise and his time up A3D and Ventoux all had tailwinds etc.

Come on, its all beet juice and cooling down!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A certain part of me believed that Armstrong et al were doing it clean but as time went on my doubts increased and then by 2003 i saw the light. His performances and those of his team mates could not be clean. Dominance in the mountains, dominance in the TT's and then a team that could sit at the front for hour after hour, day after day and still be in the mix at the end. Utter dominance and utter farce...

What would start to convince me is less of what I saw in the early 2000's, instead I see a guy who should no promise what so ever dominate every tt and mountain stages he enters and his team applying the same tactics as US Postal. Only this time it is suppose to be clean. More human and believable performances.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

It was supposed to be clean then too (you even acknowledge you fell for it) - and I agree with your conclusions, so whats to discuss or what would you expect on a forum?

 

[Ventoux Boar]

What would start to convince me is less of what I saw in the early 2000's, instead I see a guy who should no promise what so ever dominate every tt and mountain stages he enters and his team applying the same tactics as US Postal. Only this time it is suppose to be clean. More human and believable performances.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

I understand your point of view completely. But even if the Postal analogy works in its defensive sense to cover Wiggins' lack of a kick in 2012, it simply wasn't the case in 2013 where Froome attacked from distance on both MTF wins. (Both his MTF gubbings from Quintana also came from distance). I thought they looked like two completely different races and tactical scenarios.

 

[The Hitch]

Have you a link to it? I have seen it repeated (and I read Hitchs opinion) - so, I would actually like to read or hear what Walsh said.

It was a live stream. I don't think it was ever uploaded afterwards, not to youtube anyway. I don't know who broadcast it either since I only found out it was happening, during the talk, when someone either here or on velorooms posted a link to the live stream.

Edit: it may have been this. (no video though)

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/david_walsh/article1171764.ece

Fits the date (between USADA and Oprah) and the format.


Edit: checking the hashtag #WalshLive on twitter, it may (have) be(en) available for Times subscribers to rewatch afterwards.

 

[peloton]

Have you a link to it? I have seen it repeated (and I read Hitchs opinion) - so, I would actually like to read or hear what Walsh said.

Sorry mate, no link. It was an interview related to his book iirc, I watched it online, maybe Hitch can find a link to it

 

[DirtyWorks]

A certain part of me believed that Armstrong et al were doing it clean but as time went on my doubts increased and then by 2003 i saw the light.

Chris Carmichael was doping Armstrong as a developing rider in the 90's with a lawsuit about it about 2001. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/ An honest question, did you not see this story at the time? I mean that, it's an honest question.

Don't get your hopes up that elite cycling is any better now. We just don't know the specifics of the sporting fraud at work at the moment.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Aye but Sky fans do say he showed promise and his time up A3D and Ventoux all had tailwinds etc.

Come on, its all beet juice and cooling down!

They did - and by in large they are correct on those issues (not sure of Ax3).

What does that show? Nothing.
Remember the more people who think the Fromme came from nowhere, or is doing something outrageous, then the easier it should be to show what it is that Sky (or Fromme) are doing differently are better in a doping context then other teams.
Thats when the detractors go quiet.

 

[The Hitch]

Sorry mate, no link. It was an interview related to his book iirc, I watched it online, maybe Hitch can find a link to it

I think I have (see above)

 

[roundabout]

Wait, to be a fully fledged "detractor" one needs to know exactly how Froome is doping better than the rest?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It was a live stream. I don't think it was ever uploaded afterwards, not to youtube anyway. I don't know who broadcast it either since I only found out it was happening, during the talk, when someone either here or on velorooms posted a link to the live stream.

Edit: it may have been this. (no video though)

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/david_walsh/article1171764.ece

Fits the date (between USADA and Oprah) and the format.


Edit: checking the hashtag #WalshLive on twitter, it may (have) be(en) available for Times subscribers to rewatch afterwards.

Thanks.
I found an article that goes through the key points there and aligns with what you remember at the time.

3) The Spanish malaise. Spain is allegedly ‘the most corrupt’ cycling nation and probably has the most laxed attitude towards doping.

So it was about Spain not the podium of the Vuelta.