Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

In Fairness, Benotti believes that the whole peloton is doped: no exceptions.

I heard he rides a girls bike as well with a basket on the front!

Can this get anymore childish?

 

[Benotti69]

Well you'd have to go a long way back to name anyone who you could truly claimed has won the TDF regardless of whether they had come from the grupetto. I think I could only name 3 riders I believe won the it clean in the last 25 years : LeMond, Wiggins and Froome.

So where did Wiggins like LeMond show that GT ability, the ability to race and recover enought obe competitive day after day for 3 weeks, not at 29?

Froome never showed any GT ability and Sky were about to offload him!

Interesting that you discount all the riders who showed at a young age in races like Tour d'Lavenir yet Wiggins and Froome showed nothing at a young age. Quintana won d"lavenir 4 years ago. That is showing potential.

The GT ability is a 'built in' natural ability, it cannot be trained for in order to reach the top of the podium. That is why EPO changed the rules so much that donkeys like Riis could win. Froome has donkey written all over his early career.

Wiggins too had GT donkey all over his results till the 'magic' of 2009.

I agree it doesn't look good with certain names, although from memory Leinders, Barry, and Jullich hadn't been implicated when they went to Sky. The others probably weren't a good choice for sure but that doesn't prove their is a team doping program involving new talent.

Doesn't look good? Actually it stinks of systemic doping! Implicated? Jeez, if we take the sport as whole from the perspective of the average Joe in the street the whole sport is implicated! But guys like Brailsford have been in the sport for most of their life time. Hiring Leinders, Barry and Jullich is ok because they were not 'implicated' is really a sad and sorry excuse.

There is no 'proof' yet against Sky, but there was no 'proof' against Armstrong/USPS till the reasoned decision.

Heck some fans still believe Contador didn't dope!! Double heck some think Armstrong still won those 7 tours.

 

[TheGame]

If Sky came out tomorrow and said, "Okay, Okay, Froome's vo2 Max is 82.2"

Would you believe them?

Great Question TG

 

[ruamruam]

Well you'd have to go a long way back to name anyone who you could truly claimed has won the TDF regardless of whether they had come from the grupetto. I think I could only name 3 riders I believe won the it clean in the last 25 years : LeMond, Wiggins and Froome.

I agree it doesn't look good with certain names, although from memory Leinders, Barry, and Jullich hadn't been implicated when they went to Sky. The others probably weren't a good choice for sure but that doesn't prove their is a team doping program involving new talent.

All English speaking. English speaking riders don't dope. You forgot to mention Evans, he won the Tour and he's English speaking so he couldn't have doped either.

It's time to take off the blinkers and have a look around

 

[BYOP88]

So because of that you hold them to higher standards than the rest of the peloton and are more condemning when they fail to live up to those, got it.

When Movistar, OPQS etc start with the Sky PR shtick, then I'll give those teams a hard time too until that time I'll enjoy the Sky fanboys defending their boys just like the Lance fanboys did with Lance. It is true what they say, it really does take a few years for American trends to arrive in Britain.

Oh and Jimmy for the record, I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for any cycling team/rider.

 

[Benotti69]

Technically most of those didn't have a known history when they were hired. When their history came out they were fired.

They did have a history and those in the sport knew their history. Just because it was not common knowledge doesn't mean it was not known by those in the sport.

Why do you think Steven De Jongh(ex Sky) is now working with Contador?

But you're right they did put themselves up above the rest - they still believe that but of course life is never that simple. Could you (or anyone) get away with saying that you'd only be friends with people who hadn't broken the law?

As for breaking the law, we are not held accountable for the actions of our friends. This is sport. Sky, Wiggins and Froome are asking us to believe them when we have been lied to by the sport as a whole and by Sky. That Sky are not fully transparent as they said they were going to be shows they lied.

Sky declared they were going to be different. The only difference from other teams, i can see, is that other teams have not declared they were going to be different.

If you read this thread your arguments for a clean sky have been made time and time again and have been shot down time and time again.

 

[ruamruam]

When Movistar, OPQS etc start with the Sky PR shtick, then I'll give those teams a hard time too until that time I'll enjoy the Sky fanboys defending their boys just like the Lance fanboys did with Lance. It is true what they say, it really does take a few years for American trends to arrive in Britain.

Oh and Jimmy for the record, I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for any cycling team/rider.

It is scary how similar the Lance fanboys are to the Sky ones. History repeated as farce.

 

[Justinr]

Brailsford knew exactly what Wiggins was capable off, was Wiggins not on TeamGB under Brailfords eye for years. I dont remember Brailsford (or anyone else) declaring Wiggins as a future TdF winner! Got a link.

Froome's rise screams doping to all but those blinded by nationalism.

He kind of did because he started Sky whose aim was to "create the first British winner of the Tour de France within five years". At the time Wiggins was about the only rider who would fit the bill, but I don't think he actually mentioned Wiggins name at the time - probably because he was riding for another team.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Bringing this over from the Henao thread:

Fair enough, that is a valid criticism, and the same goes for any team who's rider gets pinged after the fact. So it is the fact that's Sky's PR is exposed as being hot air that is the problem here, not the team doping?

Sky have made a rod for their own back with their marginal gains guff. It sounds great on the back pages of the broadsheets and satisfies Mr and Mrs Bloggs sipping on their tea and eating a crumpet, but clearly the team is far from infallible. But people lining up to beat Sky with that rod for being careless doesn't make them into US Postal.

I think the 'sky are really scientific and look into every detail' myth has been busted.

The problem is that their PR and marginal gains are links in a chain.

The only explanation Sky have for their own success is their sophistication and attention to detail. This has been shown to be overexaggerated at best and lying at worst.

Where does their success come from then? No, a PR failiure doesn't make them postal, but they no longer have a legitimate explanation for their meteoric rise to the top.

 

[Benotti69]

So because of that you hold them to higher standards than the rest of the peloton and are more condemning when they fail to live up to those, got it.

Sky asked to be held to higher standards and proceeded to declare they would demonstrate those standards in a transparent manner to all shows why they are on the receiving end of so much criticism.

 

[thehog]

Great Question TG

It is a good question. But it's not a matter for belief.

Say they did and it was correlated to his actual performances the it must be valid, yes?

Say the figure is different and reverse engineering of his times, w/p.kg would show whatever is released is either in the realms of truthfulness or not.

Additionally you'd expect the lab to certify the result.

 

[thrawn]

All English speaking. English speaking riders don't dope. You forgot to mention Evans, he won the Tour and he's English speaking so he couldn't have doped either.

It's time to take off the blinkers and have a look around

Don't forget those great clean tour winners, Lance & Landis.

 

[Benotti69]

He kind of did because he started Sky whose aim was to "create the first British winner of the Tour de France within five years". At the time Wiggins was about the only rider who would fit the bill, but I don't think he actually mentioned Wiggins name at the time - probably because he was riding for another team.

That Wiggins never declared guys like Geraint Thomas and Peter Kennaugh as the guys of the future shows even Wiggins didn't believe he had natural GT ability.

You cannot 'create' a natural GT ability, so Sky declaring they were going to 'create' one points to PEDS.

Check out where Wiggins finished in GTs before he arrived at a team with huge TdF winning doping experience. 3+ hours down. Then he hooks up with ex USPS guys and bingo 4th at the TdF just behind some pretty big dopers. Walks like a duck and talks like a duck......

 

[Justinr]

They did have a history and those in the sport knew their history. Just because it was not common knowledge doesn't mean it was not known by those in the sport.

Why do you think Steven De Jongh(ex Sky) is now working with Contador?



As for breaking the law, we are not held accountable for the actions of our friends. This is sport. Sky, Wiggins and Froome are asking us to believe them when we have been lied to by the sport as a whole and by Sky. That Sky are not fully transparent as they said they were going to be shows they lied.

Sky declared they were going to be different. The only difference from other teams, i can see, is that other teams have not declared they were going to be different.

If you read this thread your arguments for a clean sky have been made time and time again and have been shot down time and time again.

The point I was making about friends was that you can hold a moral position like I mentioned and your friends can say they have done no wrong in the past but in actual fact may have done. I wouldn't blame you for taking that stand and then if you found out they had broken the law and you cut them off as a friend I wouldn't blame you for that - you would be true to your word. SKY run themselves like that. I don't believe Steven DeJongh was ever implicated until he confessed at the end of 2012.

Do they get all of their PR right? No - but you'd probably complain about that being too perfect if they did.

My view is Sky are a clean team (i.e. they don't have a doping program and they don't turn a blind eye) - if I'm proved wrong I'll give £100 to charity.

 

[the sceptic]

It is scary how similar the Lance fanboys are to the Sky ones. History repeated as farce.

Looks like the thread is about to become unreadable again. Its a shame.

 

[Benotti69]

The point I was making about friends was that you can hold a moral position like I mentioned and your friends can say they have done no wrong in the past but in actual fact may have done. I wouldn't blame you for taking that stand and then if you found out they had broken the law and you cut them off as a friend I wouldn't blame you for that - you would be true to your word. SKY run themselves like that. I don't believe Steven DeJongh was ever implicated until he confessed at the end of 2012.

If my friends broke the law and then proceeded to tell me they would never do it again, yet I hear them speeding down the road, I might start to think, who are they kidding.

Do they get all of their PR right? No - but you'd probably complain about that being too perfect if they did.

They failed on so many levels, the PR is the least of their fails.

My view is Sky are a clean team (i.e. they don't have a doping program and they don't turn a blind eye) - if I'm proved wrong I'll give £100 to charity.

One wouldn't guess from the tone and content of your posts Fine. My advice, avoid the clinic and enjoy the Sky ride while it lasts. When it breaks come back and tell us all how you were never persuaded really but wanted to wait for 'proof'.

For me, Sky have clearly demonstrated there is nothing transparent about them, that they lied to fans and got a guy like Froome to perform at such a level and so skinny screams doping. When asked for his Vo2max they said never tested for it, but will release it when they do and yet still no sign of it.

Sky just reek of doping if you look at everything they have done after saying they wouldn't do it that way. And when asked they obfuscate, lie and hide.

 

[Justinr]

That Wiggins never declared guys like Geraint Thomas and Peter Kennaugh as the guys of the future shows even Wiggins didn't believe he had natural GT ability.

You cannot 'create' a natural GT ability, so Sky declaring they were going to 'create' one points to PEDS.

Check out where Wiggins finished in GTs before he arrived at a team with huge TdF winning doping experience. 3+ hours down. Then he hooks up with ex USPS guys and bingo 4th at the TdF just behind some pretty big dopers. Walks like a duck and talks like a duck......

I don't think the word 'create' here was meant like that - it was about getting a British winner since GB had never had one.

The Wiggins pre-2009 was still on/off the track so was too heavy as a GT rider and by his own admission unable to deal with the publicity after the 2008 Olympics which made spiral in to depression and drink and not train properly.

He also left Cofidis in disgust at the doping positives from that team to join Garmin - that's when he began to concentrate properly on the road. And I for one happen to believe Garmin are clean as well even if there have been ex-USP people there.

 

[thrawn]

One wouldn't guess from the tone and content of your posts Fine. My advice, avoid the clinic and enjoy the Sky ride while it lasts. When it breaks come back and tell us all how you were never persuaded really but wanted to wait for 'proof'.

Nah. More likely to come back saying that everyone does it so who cares anyway.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think the word 'create' here was meant like that - it was about getting a British winner since GB had never had one.

I thought Sky were the masters of detail. They are now not saying what they mean? Hmmmm

The Wiggins pre-2009 was still on/off the track so was too heavy as a GT rider and by his own admission unable to deal with the publicity after the 2008 Olympics which made spiral in to depression and drink and not train properly.

THis has been done to death. Plenty of riders concentrated on track and road. It is a lame excuse and not believable.

He also left Cofidis in disgust at the doping positives from that team to join Garmin - that's when he began to concentrate properly on the road. And I for one happen to believe Garmin are clean as well even if there have been ex-USP people there.

He actually joined Team High Road after Cofidis and before Garmin. Team HighRoad were what in all this, a track team? Thats a new angle!

If he was disgusted at all the positives, why join a team full of ex Armstrong teammates. In 2009 everyone had read Walsh's books about Armstrong and Wiggins ranted in 2007 about the dopers winning the TdF!!!!

Sorry not buying more easily dismissible excuses that just dont add up.

 

[Justinr]

A guy who would take the route of declaring for Britain as convenience and opportunity in my opinion would have no problem doing other things that are convenient and provide an opportunity

To be honest its probably more to do with the fact that if you have a British passport you can travel around the world fairly freely, if you have a Kenyan passport you cant and you'd likely need visas for more countries. And also the fact that Kenya don't have a road race team that would get invited to the Worlds, etc.

 

[Benotti69]

Nah. More likely to come back saying that everyone does it so who cares anyway.

Just like half the Armstrong fans. Level playing field????

 

[Netserk]

Of course you don't have a problem with the data being released, but what is the motivation for the riders or teams? When has releasing blood adat cleared anything up? Wiggins in 2009? Or Hesjedal in 2012? Did that conclusively prove anything either way? Or Horner last year? Nothing was accomplished, no whispers silenced, in fact in all three cases only made the clamour get louder. I see so many times posters here demanding teams release data to prove they are clean, yet I haven't actually seen it work that way.

(I hope) no one argues that if they release BP info 'whispers would be silenced'. It doesn't work like that. Only if the rider actually was clean. Are you surprised that a doped passport released by Horner doesn't silence the critics? Doped riders won't benefit from releasing doped data, which is why Sky won't release it. So it didn't help Wiggins in '09. Guess why?

 

[Catwhoorg]

To be honest its probably more to do with the fact that if you have a British passport you can travel around the world fairly freely, if you have a Kenyan passport you cant and you'd likely need visas for more countries. And also the fact that Kenya don't have a road race team that would get invited to the Worlds, etc.

Also Lottery funding. Not sure how much filters to road professionals, but surely would have been enough to supplement the income a little of a fairly new professional.

 

[Justinr]

He actually joined Team High Road after Cofidis and before Garmin.

You're right - I missed that one, apologies. But the fact remains that it wasn't until 2009 that he really concentrated on the road.

Anyway - thank you for your advice about avoiding the Clinic. I'm going to decline your offer.

Also - ever seen a Goose? Looks like a duck, walks like a duck - but isn't one...

 

[TailWindHome]

Wiggins 4th in 2009 where his blood levels rose in the 3rd week at the TdF

Sky had expectations all right

Allegations of doping is irrelevant to the point you originally made.