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Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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martinvickers

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Netserk said:
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

What you seem to miss is that the assertion that Sky riders are doping is supported by evidence.

You however seem not to understand it, or unwilling to, and reading proof instead of evidence.

Where Hitch has put forward 'evidence', we've discussed it thoroughly - only recently another couple of rounds on the infamous Wiggins-Landis interview.

But when he states, simpliciter, that he is 'certain' and that's the end of it, Hitchens' razor applies with a vengence.

Not that he'll thank me for saying it, but Hitch is a very useful contributor, often thoughtful, who, IMO sometimes lets his bile get in the way of discussion, and far too often lets his dislike of other posters, me included, do it.

Sceptic on the other hand never brings forward anything useful. It's just troll 24/7, but without the redeeming Hog humour.

Where you come between those extremes is up to you.
 

martinvickers

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The Hitch said:
Youve never had any problems defining other peoples motives on this forum before. You did it to me just a week ago.


But when someone else does it to you, suddenly it's wrong?

Since when is 'bile' a motive, Hitch? You do know what a 'motive' is, don't you?
 
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andy1234 said:
Steve Peters is currently one of the most influential men in sport.
Of course he could have just have filled his pockets with the contents of Sky's medicine cabinet, and jumped on the train to Liverpool. ;)

Doping may well be a reason for some riders success at Sky, but Peters' influence is way more than marginal.......

Reading about Peters lately, I'm not so sure he has had much of an influence on the road as in comparison to the track. He spoke today about his role at Liverpool and that Brailsford wants him to follow suit to go full-time working with Sky.

Agree that there is something different and added about this guy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...itle-charge-reference-Victoria-Pendleton.html
 
martinvickers said:
Where Hitch has put forward 'evidence', we've discussed it thoroughly - only recently another couple of rounds on the infamous Wiggins-Landis interview.

But when he states, simpliciter, that he is 'certain' and that's the end of it, Hitchens' razor applies with a vengence.

Not that he'll thank me for saying it, but Hitch is a very useful contributor, often thoughtful, who, IMO sometimes lets his bile get in the way of discussion, and far too often lets his dislike of other posters, me included, do it.

Sceptic on the other hand never brings forward anything useful. It's just troll 24/7, but without the redeeming Hog humour.

Where you come between those extremes is up to you.
So you don't get it? Hitch's certainty *was* supported by evidence.
 

martinvickers

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Netserk said:
Like yourself :rolleyes:

If hog had derailed a thread a 10th as much as you do, he'd be banned without a warning.

Netserk, you've got yourself in trouble before. Please, don't do it again. I'm entitled to defend myself from trolling, baiting and personal attacks, which is frankly all that you and Sceptic have done the last few pages, and I will continue to do so.
 

martinvickers

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Netserk said:
No it wasn't. Just because you turn a blind eye, doesn't make things go away.

Sky for me and others removed all doubt a long long time ago. I will not say that I don't know, because I do know. I am as certain of the fact that froome and Wiggins didn't just happen to both magically transform at the same time on the same team through a series of increasingly improbable coincidences, as I am of my own name.

That is a not arguing evidence, it's a declaration of immovable faith - "I know, and I'm certain and that's that".
 
gooner said:
Reading about Peters lately, I'm not so sure he has had much of an influence on the road as in comparison to the track. He spoke today about his role at Liverpool and that Brailsford wants him to follow suit to go full-time working with Sky.

Agree that there is something different and added about this guy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...itle-charge-reference-Victoria-Pendleton.html

Getting the best out of some of the track stars, who were as one may say were 'high maintenance' was clearly hard.

By comparison the Sky team must seem like a relatively normal collection of blokes, even allowing for Wiggo.
 
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the sceptic said:
Good post.

I dont see much difference between the sky thread and the Horner threads.
Lots of people calling them dopers in both threads. Yet he has the grand total of 0 posts in the Horner thread.

Quite obvious that he has an agenda.

Now now, sceptic, that's unfair.

I have 378 posts (now 379) in this thread, and 13 in the Horner thread. I don't have an agenda that causes that, it's that that thread is way younger, I was way less interested when that thread kicked off, I couldn't give a flying one about Horner and debate is less involved because the arguments seem to be between those who think he's doping and those who think he's doping but it's ok because he's unmasking Lance/Sky/Nibali/Levi/Froome/insert boogeyman of your choice.

I had next to 0 posts in the Lance threads - I simply didn't want to get involved in the mudslinging that went on there. If I were new to the boards I wouldn't have bothered getting involved in the Sky threads, but since I've been here throughout, I can still follow what's going on.
 
Catwhoorg said:
Getting the best out of some of the track stars, who were as one may say were 'high maintenance' was clearly hard.

By comparison the Sky team must seem like a relatively normal collection of blokes, even allowing for Wiggo.

Peters' background is in treating psychopaths and the criminally insane.
A few trackies didn't tax him too much. ;)
 
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The Hitch said:
How is netserk "trolling" you? He responds to the points in your post, the way you often do to others. That is trolling now?

Martin is entitled to defend himself against trolling. It says so right there in his post.
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
Now now, sceptic, that's unfair.

I have 378 posts (now 379) in this thread, and 13 in the Horner thread. I don't have an agenda that causes that, it's that that thread is way younger, I was way less interested when that thread kicked off, I couldn't give a flying one about Horner and debate is less involved because the arguments seem to be between those who think he's doping and those who think he's doping but it's ok because he's unmasking Lance/Sky/Nibali/Levi/Froome/insert boogeyman of your choice.
that's part of the point.
those in here stressing there's no evidence against sky/froome for some reason don't bother stressing the same in the horner thread.

admittedly, horner is a massive nobrainer, but so are froome/wiggins/sky, to be honest.
(well ok, on a scale of nobrainer-hood, horner perhaps scores 10 out of 10, sky maybe score 9 out of 10)
 
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sniper said:
that's part of the point.
those in here stressing there's no evidence against sky/froome for some reason don't bother stressing the same in the horner thread.

admittedly, horner is a massive nobrainer, but so are froome/wiggins/sky, to be honest.
(well ok, on a scale of nobrainer-hood, horner perhaps scores 10 out of 10, sky maybe score 9 out of 10)

Sky 9.99 out of 10 :)
 
tellywatcher said:
My position and a question for all the fence sitters out there.

Sky - undecided whether there is team involvement in doping, not convinced they are being as transparent as they could be, which just creates suspicion

Wiggins - I actually like his personality so I hope he is clean but wouldn't fall off my chair if he wasn't , I don't find his transformation to a GC rider that unbelievable

Froome - I wish I could time travel 20 years to the future, just to know! I would fall off my chair if he turned out clean.

The question - what would it take to convince you of guilt?

For me, without a positive test, it would only be confessions from teammates or coaches, or a team employee being caught with a bag full of EPO. Analysis of performance will only ever get me 50% convinced, but an accumulation of evidence does have some merits, no?

This is a good post. Thanks.

It's an interesting question, one I've wondered about myself. I think it's impossible to say ( in that so much of how and when someone gets convinced of something is based on feeling not logic), but I think for me it really needs some credible rumours from within the team starting to bubble up through the media, or something similar. Apparently Braiosford is nicknamed Mugabe, and yet despite this you never hear bitter ex teammates telling tales. It will be very interesting what happens with JTL over the next couple of years. . .
 
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My mate knows his sister and she has said he says he was set up by Sky, presumably because he turned out to be a bit **** so they could terminate his contract.

So bitter certainly, but also maintaining his clean-ness, so unlikely to blow a whistle until he is totally bang to rights, Landis-style.
 

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