Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Justico]

#1 we know, historically, that everyone is not doping. That's probably too literal anyway.

Since this is the Sky thread let's compare Froome with Valv-Piti.

Valv-Piti - Wins everything at elite development/low ranks then goes on to win highly prized elite events. This is consistent behaviour compared to 75+ years of bike racing.

Froome - Does not win everything at low ranks, yet tops stage racing fields for months at a time, then struggles in post-grand tour races. The only thing this is consistent with is some athletes who were later revealed to be oxygen vector doping.

The fact that Valverde was punished for doping should tell you a lot about how solid is your reasoning.

I have no doubt that Froome is doping somehow, but that aside i rather believe a clean dude getting gruppetto results than a consistent winner that its caught doping.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Legal systems that are fair and just (to a point) unlike pro cycling.

LOL. The joke of the day. Even the allegedly most fair and democratic countries fail in justice and fairness.
Once a prosecutor feels to open a criminal procedure your chance of getting a verdict of guilt lies between 85% (Germany, USA) and 99% (Japan). Clean acquittals are around 3% in Germany...
IOW don´t make comparisons if you don´t know what you are talking about.

My personal opinion is: I take a doped or not doped cyclist a thousand times over lawyers, business men, politicans, scientists or whatever.
In true sports, at least those at the top, came there by talent, not on other circumstances like corruption, cheating, or connections, thus the outcomes are more fair (in the matter of if the deserved one prevailed).
If your un-doped cyclist needs 41 mins up to Alpe d Huez, or 39 mins on full program isn´t a big difference when the average trained and talented cyclist needs at least 1 hour. You still have a pretty much fair competition of the best vs the best 1.000 cyclists in the world. You don´t have that in any other area of society...

 

[DirtyWorks]

The fact that Valverde was punished for doping should tell you a lot about how solid is your reasoning..

Is there some kind of fatal flaw in my reasoning? Lots elites who won the sports most prized events pre-EPO got busted for doping too. The dope didn't transform the donkey into a racehorse like EPO and whatever has been used the last couple of years.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

#1 we know, historically, that everyone is not doping. That's probably too literal anyway.

Since this is the Sky thread let's compare Froome with Valv-Piti.

Valv-Piti - Wins everything at elite development/low ranks then goes on to win highly prized elite events. This is consistent behaviour compared to 75+ years of bike racing.

Froome - Does not win everything at low ranks, yet tops stage racing fields for months at a time, then struggles in post-grand tour races. The only thing this is consistent with is some athletes who were later revealed to be oxygen vector doping.

Good that we agreed on Valv-Piti.
Now to Froome:
It would be great to get a good researched info how he grew up in Kenya, and SA. Certainly not as a pampered cyclist a la Europe or USA. Thus he couldn´t dominate youth races. And he couldn´t win big races at age 21 when his first PT pro contract came at age 23 on a 2nd tier team. So comparisons to Valv-Piti just can not be drawn. It´s impossible.
Now to the allegedly struggles after GTs. After his transformation Vuelta 2011, he finished 3rd in China before ending his season.
In 2012 he finished 2nd TdF, had very good olympics and finished 4th in Vuelta.
In 2013 he was constant from January trou July. Something never seen with riders like Jan, LA, or Lemond at least after his accident... In short; Where is Froome struggling after GTs? If he didn´t race (in official UCI races) after the 2013 TdF, you can´t blame him after a great constant season for struggling only b/c he ended it.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I don't feel I can add anything to your posts on consistency as I find them utterly ill-informed, agenda-driven and pointless.

Nice self-description of yours...
Too my posts; I am sorry you can´t read them properly. Hope lost, as I feared.
And of course no answer to my question, but distraction. Business as usual...

 

[BYOP88]

Good that we agreed on Valv-Piti.
Now to Froome:
It would be great to get a good researched info how he grew up in Kenya, and SA. Certainly not as a pampered cyclist a la Europe or USA. Thus he couldn´t dominate youth races. And he couldn´t win big races at age 21 when his first PT pro contract came at age 23 on a 2nd tier team. So comparisons to Valv-Piti just can not be drawn. It´s impossible.
Now to the allegedly struggles after GTs. After his transformation Vuelta 2011, he finished 3rd in China before ending his season.
In 2012 he finished 2nd TdF, had very good olympics and finished 4th in Vuelta.
In 2013 he was constant from January trou July. Something never seen with riders like Jan, LA, or Lemond at least after his accident... In short; Where is Froome struggling after GTs? If he didn´t race (in official UCI races) after the 2013 TdF, you can´t blame him after a great constant season for struggling only b/c he ended it.

Froome used to get spat out the peloton on the flat in South African races(No reports of badzilla at that time). Must be a sign of a future TdF winner.

I suggest those who want to make some serious money head down to South Africa and see who gets dropped on the flat, then bet huge sums of money on those riders then winning the TdF at some point in the future.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Isn´t there any links, or results of his "spat out" races. Would be nice to get light in the darkness...

You know that´s what I complain when talking of 99% spam, and 1% info. Instead of posting the same photo 100 times, those posers could come up with hard facts instead of opinions, insults, baseless allegations and abstruse theories...

 

[BYOP88]

Isn´t there any links, or results of his "spat out" races. Would be nice to get light in the darkness...

Looking for the piece regarding Froome being dropped on the flat.

You know that´s what I complain when talking of 99% spam, and 1% info. Instead of posting the same photo 100 times, those posers could come up with hard facts instead of opinions, insults, baseless allegations and abstruse theories...

I promise to live up to your standard of posting. I mean all the facts you post regarding Horner etc. Good job you don't live in a glass house.

 

[the sceptic]

Isn´t there any links, or results of his "spat out" races. Would be nice to get light in the darkness...

You know that´s what I complain when talking of 99% spam, and 1% info. Instead of posting the same photo 100 times, those posers could come up with hard facts instead of opinions, insults, baseless allegations and abstruse theories...

http://www.cyclingsa.com/Article.aspx?uid=1672

“It’s hard to believe now, but Chris initially struggled to finish in the main peloton in the South African races, which are mostly short (around 100km) and flat. Our first goal, when I started coaching him, was to ensure he finished in the main pack. Our next goal, because Chris is so light and not a great sprinter, was to make him a super-domestique,” recalled Nilsen.

Sounds like a future grand tour winner

 

[BYOP88]

http://www.cyclingsa.com/Article.aspx?uid=1672


Sounds like a future grand tour winner

Thanks for finding/posting that, the sceptic.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Looking for the piece regarding Froome being dropped on the flat.

Thanks

I promise to live up to your standard of posting. I mean all the facts you post regarding Horner etc. Good job you don't live in a glass house.

I compared and posted numbers, repeated what JV said about his BP, reminded people of what they should see in cyclists riding on one leg away from young talented riders, showed the facts that he was a no show in his first europe stint, reminded them of the omerta keeping Hincy incident, the absurd interviews showing his pro doping stance, how his PR stint left the anti-doping agency behind as fools, yet he was the one to blame, etc... No theories. Where I failed is on his BP. But I am not presumptuous to talk about things I don´t fully crasp. I leave that to others. If they tell me his BP looks dodgy at least, I take that in the bigger picture and come to the conclusion: A full doped grandpa on a bike...

 

[the sceptic]

Thanks for finding/posting that, the sceptic.

np. Its just too funny that Froome, the amazing talent, the chosen one, the next Lemond, etc couldnt keep up on the flat in local South African races. Sky fans itt, how do you explain this?

Sky science really is amazing.

 

[BYOP88]

I compared and posted numbers, repeated what JV said about his BP, reminded people of what they should see in cyclists riding on one leg away from young talented riders, showed the facts that he was a no show in his first europe stint, reminded them of the omerta keeping Hincy incident, the absurd interviews showing his pro doping stance, etc... No theories. Where I failed is on his BP. But I am not presumptuous to talk about things I don´t fully crasp. I leave that to others. If they tell me his BP looks dodgy at least, I take that in the bigger picture and come to the conclusion: A full doped grandpa on a bike...

But haven't recent events(Henao/altitude natives/altitude training) shown that the BP is nothing more than a PR stunt from the UCI?

So are these young talented riders he's riding away from clean?

Couldn't Horner's first spell in Europe be compared to Froome's first 3 years in Europe too? I mean Froome sucked just as much until his August 2011 'rebirth'.

Interviews with pro-doping stance?!?!?!?!

I'll just say for the record, I'm not a fan of Horner. I can't stand the guy for many reasons.

 

[SeriousSam]

It really is incredible. That Froome's career turned out the way it has must be one of the least probable events in sports history. Imaging asking Paddy powers to give you odds that Christopher Froome will annihilate everyone up Ventoux in 2013 a few years ago.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

http://www.cyclingsa.com/Article.aspx?uid=1672


Sounds like a future grand tour winner

Was it his first rides in a peloton? Did he know how to ride in slipstream, or was he a bloody beginner in the spoken about races? Questions remain, but at least a beginning...
As I read the full article, it comes up more positive than negative. Whatever, readers should read the full article instead of only concentrating on sceptics cherry picking quote...

Anyway, thanks, at least you contributed...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

But haven't recent events(Henao/altitude natives/altitude training) shown that the BP is nothing more than a PR stunt from the UCI?

I think it (the BP) worked for circa four seasons, when I read the "sportsscientists" articles. BTW, I strongly recommend. Great explanations with underlying facts and numbers. Now it seems some people have figured out how to beat it, speak stay within the limits. Never did I thought a old man would, metaphorically speaking, spat into the face of any anti doping success so fast and with such great impact.
It might be over now. That´s why I started the "future GT winner (joke) thread" here, in competition to the serious one in the RR section. We might be heading back to the old days. It will be an interesting TdF. Everything possible: Unexpected winner like the Vuelta 2013 (someone who has the guts to go all-in), big scandal like in 2006/07/08, or normal results b/c riders fear the french police. It will be enteraining in every aspect.

So are these young talented riders he's riding away from clean?

No doubt about it some were, and certainly most of them were cleaner/cleanish. There is no way, never, never, never, that a old man would ride away on one leg from those gifted athlets if they were on the same all-or-nothing-full-scale-doping-program. If they were, CH would have finished in the middle of the pack (or worse).

Couldn't Horner's first spell in Europe be compared to Froome's first 3 years in Europe too? I mean Froome sucked just as much until his August 2011 'rebirth'.

No. Simply b/c Froome brings his best results when you expect it (age 26-29). At this age CH was nothing, unable to follow the clean riders of the peloton (yes there were a few).

Interviews with pro-doping stance?!?!?!?!

When he talked about LA, doping is only when you have a positive, he never saw something in his career, etc... The usual omerta speech.

 

[panache]

Was it his first rides in a peloton? Did he know how to ride in slipstream, or was he a bloody beginner in the spoken about races? Questions remain, but at least a beginning...
As I read the full article, it comes up more positive than negative. Whatever, readers should read the full article instead of only concentrating on sceptics cherry picking quote...

Anyway, thanks, at least you contributed...

To use this reasoning you need to believe two things...

1. All of these reasons about being a beginner, badzilla, and bad roads in Kenya are not exaggerated and were a massive hinderance to his development.

2. He is the most talented gt rider ever.

 

[the sceptic]

another one for skyfans.

If badzilla really is such a major obstacle, then how could he win a grand tour with it?

 

[BYOP88]

No. Simply b/c Froome brings his best results when you expect it (age 26-29). At this age CH was nothing, unable to follow the clean riders of the peloton (yes there were a few).

So we should be suspicious of riders who achieve their best results at a younger or older age than the 26-29 years peak? Dammit!!!!!! I guess Sir Bradley Wiggans must be a doper like Horner.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

To use this reasoning you need to believe two things...

1. All of these reasons about being a beginner and badzilla, and bad roads in Kenya are not exaggerated and were a massive hinder acne to his development.

2. He is the most talented gt rider ever.

I believe much of his coming out of nowhere has to do with his african roots. I don´t know how long he did ride in Kenya. I never saw people on bikes that come close to minimal standards for road racing as we know it. And the streets are, to say it mildly, not in good or safe condition for cars, let alone cyclists. How the structure of youth racing in SA is, I don´t know. Certainly not as developed as in Europe or USA. He certainly was at big disatvantage when his european counterparts already started winning with the help of proper training, good infrastructure, and perfect equipment.

That doesn´t mean that he is not doping. We simply don´t know. It just means it´s not as unlikely as people think to burst onto the scene, given the circumstances. I said this two years ago, I repeat it now again.

 

[BYOP88]

I believe much of his coming out of nowhere has to do with his african roots. I don´t know how long he did ride in Kenya. I never saw people on bikes that come close to minimal standards for road racing as we know it. And the streets are, to say it mildly, not in good or safe condition for cars, let alone cyclists. How the structure of youth racing in SA is, I don´t know. Certainly not as developed as in Europe or USA. He certainly was at big disatvantage when his european counterparts already started winning with the help of proper training, good infrastructure, and perfect equipment.

That doesn´t mean that he is not doping. We simply don´t know. It just means it´s not as unlikely as people think to burst onto the scene, given the circumstances. I said this two years ago, I repeat it now again.

It's pretty good. I'll check with my South African friend and I'll post her answer.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I guess Sir Bradley Wiggans must be a doper like Horner.

I was always suspicious of Wiggings transfo at the trademark clean team. I still am BTW. I thought you know that...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So we should be suspicious of riders who achieve their best results at a younger or older age than the 26-29 years peak?

Not so fast. You can get washed out earlier than age 26-29 (it happens very often). But peaking after that with sudden jumps in performance after many so-so years in the pro scence, is highly suspicious... But to peak after age 38 is grotesque. Abnormal, Alien-like, BS...

 

[BYOP88]

Not so fast. You can get washed out earlier than age 26-29 (it happens very often). But peaking after that with sudden jumps in performance after many so-so years in the pro scence, is highly suspicious... But to peak after age 38 is grotesque. Abnormal, Alien-like, BS...

I'm with you on that, I do not believe in Horner for a second.

I was always suspicious of Wiggings transfo at the trademark clean team. I still am BTW. I thought you know that...

I might have known it, not 100% sure.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Just a few days ago I pretty much made it clear (again) that I do not believe in Wiggins. Anyway, my mistake. I should not assume that you want to sift trou all this inflated thread...