Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

You don't need Ferrari to dominate a sport no one cares about.

Road cycling is a whole different ballgame where all GC contenders have experienced doping doctors.

I bet Leinders + Zorzoli is what gave sky the edge. They knew they could go full mutant without risking a positive test.

 

[samhocking]

What the whole different ball game that Brailsford and BC worked out how to win in 2 years against teams we know were doped?

 

[samhocking]

By saying it's a whole different ball game I think you're actually reinforcing my arguments, because if it didn't require doping knowledge from the track where did they get all this doping knowledge from in just 2 years? I can't believe it's Leinders. I honestly cannot believe that Sky's success is down to Leinders and continues to be 2 years later.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

By saying it's a whole different ball game I think you're actually reinforcing my arguments, because if it didn't require doping knowledge from the track where did they get all this doping knowledge from in just 2 years? I can't believe it's Leinders. I honestly cannot believe that Sky's success is down to Leinders and continues to be 2 years later.

Not sure if you are trolling or not, but I'll bite.

GO look at the staff list for 2009 / 2010 and now. See all those people who got the flick? They got the flick for having doped.

Now do try to keep up.

Did you start following cycling this year or something?

There was a tonne of press about all the people being let go - including Rogers - or getting mysteriously sick and leaving etc.

GOOD GRIEF.

 

[Netserk]

By saying it's a whole different ball game I think you're actually reinforcing my arguments, because if it didn't require doping knowledge from the track where did they get all this doping knowledge from in just 2 years? I can't believe it's Leinders. I honestly cannot believe that Sky's success is down to Leinders and continues to be 2 years later.

2010: First year for Sky on the road. Crap. Hires Leinders at the end of the year.
2011: Wins Dauphine and get two on the podium in the Vuelta.
2012: UK Postal.

Funny to note the difference Leinders made...

 

[samhocking]

Also, where did Leinders learn to dope a rider to win Tour de France, because it wasn't at Rabobank winning it afaikr

 

[samhocking]

2010: First year for Sky on the road. Crap. Hires Leinders at the end of the year.
2011: Wins Dauphine and get two on the podium in the Vuelta.
2012: UK Postal.

Funny to note the difference Leinders made...

You can say the same about nearly any team and rider. That doesn't mean anything letalone prove anything.

 

[ray j willings]

That is clearly not the case.
2008 World Road Champions under Brailsford for both Men & Womens, 8 Olympic gold, 4 Silver and 2 bronze medals on track, 9 golds at World Track Championships

Leinders still at Rabobank!

What are you talking about?

Ballan was the world champion in 2008 .

Cooke was the womans champion which had nothing to do with Brailsford.

She thinks the peloton is still doping including Sky

Track is not the road. Sky won nothing of importance in until Leinder's came aboard.

 

[Netserk]

You can say the same about nearly any team and rider. That doesn't mean anything letalone prove anything.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Sky suddenly gets a lot better after they loosen up their ZTP and hire a doping doctor.

But please, since it is so easy, point out another team that got a lot better (with the same riders on the team) after hiring a doctor.

 

[samhocking]

What are you talking about?

Ballan was the world champion in 2008 .

Cooke was the womans champion which had nothing to do with Brailsford.

She thinks the peloton is still doping including Sky

Track is not the road. Sky won nothing of importance in until Leinder's came aboard.

Cav in 2011 I meant by double wins. Typing on mobile, I get lazy! It doesn't change my argument, so if nitpicking is all you got...

So Sky will not win now Leinders is banned?

 

[ebandit]

boardman

Your 'argument' falls down when we see that Boardman was named as doping with EPO in a book...and secondly, and more importantly, anyone who thinks the talent pool for track cycling is even remotely similar to road cycling, is on another planet...as evidenced by guys like Wiggins riding Grupetto.

which book was that? have details been verified? was boardmans success

not earlier than brailsford / bc performance plan?

Mark L

 

[samhocking]

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Sky suddenly gets a lot better after they loosen up their ZTP and hire a doping doctor.

But please, since it is so easy, point out another team that got a lot better (with the same riders on the team) after hiring a doctor.

So you're basically saying Leinders worked at rabobank from 1996 to 2009 and they never won Tour de France while he was there working with some extremely talented 'non-track' road riders deep in the era of doping, yet in 2 years all that knowledge of how to win the Tour worked on Wiggins? Jeez, try harder pal!

 

[Netserk]

So you're basically saying Leinders worked at rabobank from 1996 to 2009 and they never won Tour de France while he was there working with some extremely talented 'non-track' road riders deep in the era of doping, yet in 2 years all that knowledge of how to win the Tour worked on Wiggins? Jeez, try harder pal!

Since you missed it in my last post I will type it again in a larger size so you can see it (and respond to it?):

You can say the same about nearly any team and rider. That doesn't mean anything letalone prove anything.

But please, since it is so easy, point out another team that got a lot better (with the same riders on the team) after hiring a doctor.

 

[TailWindHome]

(with the same riders on the team)

Except this part isn't true.

Assuming Leinders was hired in August 2010 - the following riders were recruited after this date

2011
Alex Dowsett
Rigoberto Urán
Xabier Zandio
Jeremy Hunt
Davide Appollonio
Michael Rogers
Christian Knees

2012
Salvatore Puccio
Sergio Henao
Luke Rowe
Richie Porte
Danny Pate
Kanstantsin Sivtsov
Mark Cavendish
Bernhard Eisel

 

[samhocking]

I can't believe you justified replying to point out the flaws in Netserk's argument. I can only assume he was hoping I would say Postal lol.

 

[Netserk]

Except this part isn't true.

Assuming Leinders was hired in August 2010 - the following riders were recruited after this date

2011
Alex Dowsett
Rigoberto Urán
Xabier Zandio
Jeremy Hunt
Davide Appollonio
Michael Rogers
Christian Knees

2012
Salvatore Puccio
Sergio Henao
Luke Rowe
Richie Porte
Danny Pate
Kanstantsin Sivtsov
Mark Cavendish
Bernhard Eisel

And which riders improved a lot from '10 to '11?

Or are you telling me that it was Rogers and Uran who in 2011 won Dauphine and were the two riders to podium the Vuelta?

 

[Netserk]

I can't believe you justified replying to point out the flaws in Netserk's argument. I can only assume he was hoping I would say Postal lol.

I don't have any hope that you will name any specific team. Any will do. Just name a team, a year and a doctor that matches.

 

[samhocking]

I don't have any hope that you will name any specific team. Any will do. Just name a team, a year and a doctor that matches.

How can I answer when every team changes riders once a year? I guess my local cycling club hasn't changed or had any new riders register this year and one is a doctor? Is that good enough?

 

[Netserk]

How can I answer when every team changes riders once a year? I guess my local cycling club hasn't changed or had any new riders register this year and one is a doctor? Is that good enough?

Name one team that hired one doctor, which received far better results the following year, primarily with riders who already were there the year before (to make sure that it was the doctor who was the difference in results and not the hiring of a star rider)

Remember your post I am responding to

 

[samhocking]

So are you saying the (with the same riders on the team) bit so consciously emphasised in brackets and then highlighted even more in bold is not meant to be there now so I can answer? Ooohh, I like the moving goalposts questions!

 

[Netserk]

So are you saying the (with the same riders on the team) bit so consciously emphasised in brackets and then highlighted even more in bold is not meant to be there now so I can answer? Ooohh, I like the moving goalposts questions!

No, it is meant to be there, but it's not my fault that you misunderstood its meaning. BTW I didn't bold it (I also don't get why you think it's an emphasis to put something in parentheses, when the opposite is what is normally the case). I explained to you what I meant by it.

Now that is out of the way, you can answer the question and thereby prove that you want to have a genuine conversation.

 

[samhocking]

OK
When Team GB formed Sky Track Cycling in 2007 with Dr Steve Peters. Phenomenal successes in that pro team in 2008 & 2009 compared to 2007 without him.

 

[Netserk]

OK
When Team GB formed Sky Track Cycling in 2007 with Dr Steve Peters. Phenomenal successes in that pro team in 2008 & 2009 compared to 2007 without him.

This is in the road section, about a road team. I thought that much was obvious.

When you said that the same could be said of any team, I thought you'd be able to actually name at least just one (that like Sky also was a pro road team). I think it's quite telling if that is the closest you can get.

 

[samhocking]

OK, to be serious, I was not actually relating a team's success to a Dr arriving or departing in a team anyway when I was saying Sky & Team GB/British Cycling are the same thing and success came under Brailsford while Leinders was still at Rabobank. When an Olymypic & World track squad go from 0 to winning nearly every event at Olympic & world level against traditional cycling nations with more than just one velodrome to train on, this should raise eyebrows too. However apparently this kind of success is to be expected as the talent pool is small, even though a rider in this pool of nobodys won wherever Brailsford was including Tour de France twice?

My point is the consistent variable in Sky/Team GB success is NOT Leinders, it's Brailsford and what other Dr Ferrari?

 

[Netserk]

Huh?

Does that mean that you do find it unique and not something that happens on any team as you previously wrote?

Or is a track team not the closest to have the same thing happening, but you just chose to not give a comparable (to Sky) example? Surely that should be very easy to do when it happens on any team, right?