Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ray j willings]

Re: Sky

Spud throws out the line and some of you bite.
Sky boy fans really are desperate to defend Sky.
Unless anyone has a video of Brailsford injecting Frooome etc with a bottle clearly marked " illegal drugs" and witnessed by Richard Dawkins then they "sky" will forever be "what's right" about pro cycling and everyone else is cheating. Its a weird sort of blind patriotism. My friends suffer from it. When Contador drops Froome out come the Contador is a doping cheat etc etc. When Froome wins its all about marginal gains and hard training You can find a lot of these fans at the BR pro forum apart from the odd one or 2, anyone anti Sky ends up with a ban

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

It is entirely consistent with DB being shifty about things, and also not being transparent. After all, do you really expect him to come out and say "we're jacking the guys up on cortisone to lose weight"?

So DB is shifty in a sport that is a cesspit. And some want us to believe that Sky being shifty is not ethical but not illegal. Yet they wont release Froome's Vo2max or they tell us he has never being tested!

A shifty team in cycling is not a clean team. They proved that by hiring Leinders. Telling Leinders to develop a clean program that can beat doped programs of Ferrari, Ibauguren and the likes of Fuentes! Do peope really think that Leinders who is known for doping riders was able to find a program in a few months that turned Froome from nowhere to podium. PULEEEEAAAASSSSE. Take your head out of your behind.

FFS. What utter utter utter stupidity that people really want to believe their so called 'heroes' can do it clean. Go find some real heroes in life to believe in, not available in professional sport.

So the usual shout shout shout response rather than wanting to discuss.

So Vickerish......

So called 'grey' areas that become black areas in doping are not acceptable as 'grey' areas because they Performance enhance. Trying to split hairs to land on the side 'legal' is pathetic.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Col de la Madone

Richie Porte 29:40
Chris Froome 30:09
Tom Danielson 30:24
Lance Armstrong 30:45
Tony Rominger 31:30
Tyler Hamilton 32:32
Sky = Doping.

I suspect the times posted by the known dopers are unlikely to be heavily doped times as heavy doping would be specifically during the race.

Ugh. By what logic do you think riders train half-power all year then dope themselves senseless in a race.

No logic at all.

Good grief.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

who's paying you? hope he pays well.

so Tyler used EPO...
still didn't come close to Froome's clean time up the Madone.
ow, and Tyler as a matter of fact doped with cortisone (wasn't just using it OOC). Broke the rules.
still didn't loose 7kg like Wiggins did in 09.

Tyler did tell us, in the same 'how to dope' book, that Ferrari typically dismissed him as a contender because he was always 'too fat'.

IOW - maybe he should have tried AICAR and/or used cortisone as a weight loss aid.

Dave.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

It is entirely consistent with DB being shifty about things, and also not being transparent. After all, do you really expect him to come out and say "we're jacking the guys up on cortisone to lose weight"?

So DB is shifty in a sport that is a cesspit. And some want us to believe that Sky being shifty is not ethical but not illegal. Yet they wont release Froome's Vo2max or they tell us he has never being tested!

A shifty team in cycling is not a clean team. They proved that by hiring Leinders. Telling Leinders to develop a clean program that can beat doped programs of Ferrari, Ibauguren and the likes of Fuentes! Do peope really think that Leinders who is known for doping riders was able to find a program in a few months that turned Froome from nowhere to podium. PULEEEEAAAASSSSE. Take your head out of your behind.

FFS. What utter utter utter stupidity that people really want to believe their so called 'heroes' can do it clean. Go find some real heroes in life to believe in, not available in professional sport.

So the usual shout shout shout response rather than wanting to discuss.

So Vickerish......

So called 'grey' areas that become black areas in doping are not acceptable as 'grey' areas because they Performance enhance. Trying to split hairs to land on the side 'legal' is pathetic.

And there we go - the Sockpuppet accusation, so predictable.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

...

who's paying you? hope he pays well.

so Tyler used EPO...
still didn't come close to Froome's clean time up the Madone.
ow, and Tyler as a matter of fact doped with cortisone (wasn't just using it OOC). Broke the rules.
still didn't loose 7kg like Wiggins did in 09.

Tyler did tell us, in the same 'how to dope' book, that Ferrari typically dismissed him as a contender because he was always 'too fat'.

IOW - maybe he should have tried AICAR and/or used cortisone as a weight loss aid.

Dave.

Initially he did, but later he was impressed with his numbers. Dont remember AICAR or even Cortisone being mentioned in between. I do remember that he said he had no fat on his backside it hurt to sit down, and that his wife said she coukd see his organs through his skin.

 

[DA_Man]

Re: Re:

[...]his wife said she coukd see his organs through his skin.

I bet she did.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Clearly I don't have a copy of his contract, but I do know something about employment law. I would assume he would have to be in breach of contract or guilty of gross misconduct for his contract to be terminated, and there would need to be a process of investigatory meetings, disciplinary meetings and possibly employment tribunals if he contests the termination. You can also manage people out of jobs i.e. give them various warnings/performance reviews/targets until they either quit or you have good reason to fire them

Of course you are assuming that the employment contract is based upon some type of english employment law.

And here is another area where your argument falls apart as you say yourself that you haven't seen the contract and so can't assume anything.
It could be an "At will" contract which would give either side the ability to terminate for any reason at a weeks notice.

You are trying to make arguments about something you know nothing about obviously - it is an international team with a large corporation backing it and it will do as it pleases when it pleases because it knows it's lawyers are better and more expensive than anyone else and will win.

I have worked for these type of organisations my whole career 25 years of it and they are all the same.

Equally in these organisations the only currency is success and you do whatever it takes to get it.

Any thought that the SKY brand would not employ whatever methods needed to get the job done whether legal or not are rather naive, this is the same corporate entity that owned the News of the World - remember the newspaper that was apparently willing to tap into dead peoples phones for a news story!!!!
Yeah that makes me think of a really up standing and wonderful organisation.

beat me to it. Good post.
you'd think that "I would assume he would have to be in breach of contract " would be enough...

and now it's "all gone quiet over there"...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

...

who's paying you? hope he pays well.

so Tyler used EPO...
still didn't come close to Froome's clean time up the Madone.
ow, and Tyler as a matter of fact doped with cortisone (wasn't just using it OOC). Broke the rules.
still didn't loose 7kg like Wiggins did in 09.

Tyler did tell us, in the same 'how to dope' book, that Ferrari typically dismissed him as a contender because he was always 'too fat'.

IOW - maybe he should have tried AICAR and/or used cortisone as a weight loss aid.

Dave.

Initially he did, but later he was impressed with his numbers. Dont remember AICAR or even Cortisone being mentioned in between. I do remember that he said he had no fat on his backside it hurt to sit down, and that his wife said she coukd see his organs through his skin.

No, just a sh!tload of microdosing EPO and testosteron.

What exactly is your point?

Do you really think those times of those dopers can be beaten by clean athletes now?

And, to the point of whether those dopers were on top form for those Madonde climbs we still have this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U&t=612

''Why would I be using something when training?'

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Initially he did, but later he was impressed with his numbers. Dont remember AICAR or even Cortisone being mentioned in between. I do remember that he said he had no fat on his backside it hurt to sit down, and that his wife said she coukd see his organs through his skin.

No, just a sh!tload of microdosing EPO and testosteron.

And, IMO, even more importantly, the training and doping direction of a medical professional with more experience and success with cyclists than any other doping doctor on the planet.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

And, to the point of whether those dopers were on top form for those Madonde climbs we still have this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U&t=612

''Why would I be using something when training?'

thanks for that link!
truly epic, astonishing stuff.
the training argument is hilarious, as good as an admission.
the 'never tested positive' argument is also there.
and Mueller Wohlfahrt gets honorable mention.

lovely how the cheats change their rethorics as they go along.
incredible how these guys are trained professional liars.

good to see the old Walsh. Much respect for how calm and cool he remains in the debate.
He was really good.
A real pity he went senile. Understandable though if you see the amount of flack he's getting there for talking common sense. Those self-righteous people in the audience lashing out at Walsh... wow...

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

who's paying you? hope he pays well.

so Tyler used EPO...
still didn't come close to Froome's clean time up the Madone.
ow, and Tyler as a matter of fact doped with cortisone (wasn't just using it OOC). Broke the rules.
still didn't loose 7kg like Wiggins did in 09.

Firstly, no-one is paying me.
Secondly, Tyler doing IC cortisone is irrelevant. If not, please show why.
Thirdly, For the weight loss - Tyler probably wasn't as over-heavy as Wiggins as he had not been a track rider.
Fourthly, the Madone times are all BS as we don't know who started / finished where - they were all self reported. Basically worthless as a comparison.

Wiggo weight loss us taken from his 06 and 07 tours when he dedicated his entire years to doing well at the tour and didn't ride a single track event for 2 years. So no he wasn't an overweight track rider. Point dismissed.

2 where to start madone isn't some supersecret. It's well known in the peloton. Riders wouldn't be boasting about their times if they had no clue where to start. You come off like a poor lawyer trying to find any tiny alternative no matter how improbable to counter common sense.

So what, the only known map of where to start madone together with everyone in the world who knew the startpoint was taken out onto an island and killed to make sure the secret NEVER gets found out. Do you even think some of these things through

It's not like there isn't plenty of staff and rider overlap between Armstrong, others who used madone, and Sky.

Ps it's funny how every single time sky get caught lying or being suspicious you ALWAYS manage to invent some alternative that paints sky in a positive light and "choose to believe" the alternative, no matter how improbable or unthought through it is.

 

[McLovin]

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

 

[deeno1975]

Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Wiggo weight loss us taken from his 06 and 07 tours when he dedicated his entire years to doing well at the tour and didn't ride a single track event for 2 years. So no he wasn't an overweight track rider. Point dismissed.

When was he nicknamed Twiggo? 2009 wasnt it - the summer after the 2008 Olympics where he was doing what? Riding track ...

So what, the only known map of where to start madone together with everyone in the world who knew the startpoint was taken out onto an island and killed to make sure the secret NEVER gets found out. Do you even think some of these things through

What are you on about ...

 

[McLovin]

Re: Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

Look

 

[TailWindHome]

Re: Re:

Wiggo weight loss us taken from his 06 and 07 tours when he dedicated his entire years to doing well at the tour and didn't ride a single track event for 2 years. So no he wasn't an overweight track rider. Point dismissed.

He was world champion in 2007?

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

Look

You cant see the black socks he used to wear to wind up the french ...

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

Look

But only for the chainring, not the rear. Always been puzzled by that. Looks like Ulrich has the same too.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Wiggo weight loss us taken from his 06 and 07 tours when he dedicated his entire years to doing well at the tour and didn't ride a single track event for 2 years. So no he wasn't an overweight track rider. Point dismissed.

He was world champion in 2007?

Indeed he was. Maybe thats Hitch's point dismissed??

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

Ugh. By what logic do you think riders train half-power all year then dope themselves senseless in a race.

No logic at all.

Good grief.

If a rider has a limited number of blood bags why would he waste those in training? Drugs which have short term benefit would be used during races like cortisone/amphetamines. Long term use would cause number of problems. Nobody trains at half power & I donot think doping can give more than 20% increase in power.

 

[coinneach]

Re: Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

Look

But only for the chainring, not the rear. Always been puzzled by that. Looks like Ulrich has the same too.

It was to save weight.....they didn't have such super lightweight bikes as they have now.....that's why they can go uphill faster now than in Armstrongs day

 

[Gregga]

Re: Re:

2 where to start madone isn't some supersecret. It's well known in the peloton. Riders wouldn't be boasting about their times if they had no clue where to start. You come off like a poor lawyer trying to find any tiny alternative no matter how improbable to counter common sense.

So what, the only known map of where to start madone together with everyone in the world who knew the startpoint was taken out onto an island and killed to make sure the secret NEVER gets found out.

Starting point of Madone is not a secret, even Ferrari explained it http://53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=7122

This article quoted by Cyclingtips says exactly the same "you will come to the tiny village of 'le castagnins' , start the stopwatch from the hairpin over the small bridge" http://www.cycle2max.com/bike-hill-climb/THE-Madone-(col-de-la-Madone).aspx?id=454

Cyclingtips "We’ve done a bit of asking around and it would seem that the local pros start their watches in the tiny village of Le Castagnins on the D22. There are a couple of bus stops there that the pros apparently use as a landmark with the climbing starting at a bridge before the first switchback a few hundred metres later."

Finish is at the col sign at the summit...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Ugh. By what logic do you think riders train half-power all year then dope themselves senseless in a race.

No logic at all.

Good grief.

If a rider has a limited number of blood bags why would he waste those in training? Drugs which have short term benefit would be used during races like cortisone/amphetamines. Long term use would cause number of problems. Nobody trains at half power & I donot think doping can give more than 20% increase in power.

If you had have said blood doping, your response here would make sense.

Instead, you change it - most people* equate doping with EPO, test, HgH, etc.

None of which you mentioned.

Do you know anything of the doping protocols as outlined in any of the biographies by riders?

Here's what I was responding to:

I suspect the times posted by the known dopers are unlikely to be heavily doped times as heavy doping would be specifically during the race.

You clearly think doping = blood doping only. Trust me, it isn't.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

Look

But only for the chainring, not the rear. Always been puzzled by that. Looks like Ulrich has the same too.

It was to save weight.....they didn't have such super lightweight bikes as they have now.....that's why they can go uphill faster now than in Armstrongs day

The new guys have aero wheels.

They need them.

They are going way faster.

Dave.