Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

to briefly summarize: you're all over the place.

Really?

The position put across was that Sky must be using illegal weight loss drugs (eg AICAR) since its not possible to lose weight without losing power. The one link thats posted is Eric Boyer - granted an experienced rider / manager - alluding to certain riders, and saying its not possible.

My position is that I dont think they are using AICAR for a number of reasons:

1. I believe they are a team that wants to race "clean" *
2. It is possible to lose weight and maintain power using cortisone. This, as we know, isnt banned OOC.
3. They are probably combining (2) with other things (Telmisartan, or similar).

* by "clean" I don't mean they haven't been chemically helped. They have always talked about pushing things to the limit / going right to wire / etc. - which means no banned substances / methods. That still leaves one hell of a grey area to work in. In the past that may have been Tramadol, Xenon, playing TUE rules to the max, who knows what else. Illegal - no, unethical - i would have thought so. Entirely consistent with Sutton's comments.

And just going back to (2) - page 60 in the CIRC report states this and that it has been used lately for a GT win with the approval of the team's management. Perhaps a team that wanted to push the limits within the rules? And also Tyler mentioned that by changing his training (under Cecco) to include more intervals he was able to increase his power, something people probably would have thought unlikely given the already highly trained state he was in. So power improvements possible by incredibly fit cyclists claimed by an experienced ex-rider. Weight loss without power loss possible using OOC cortisone claimed in an official report. All certainly as believable as Mr Boyer's claims.

So no, I dont think I am all over the place. In fact i have been completely consistent.

Anyway, of for a few days in the Alps now so you wont hear from me (wanted to let Hitch know).

(NB: Am trying to argue the point(s) in the post, and not the poster. If it appears otherwise, that is not the intent)

On #2, I am not going to do even a quick Google search. But, while someone(s) may be trying this, longer-term use of Cortisone is correlated with serious tissue/muscle loss, bone demineralisation, reduced protein synthesis, etc. issues. At least it did last time I looked.

So, it is possible that someone or some team could be using cortisone OOC, but only possible with serious risks.

And (without doing a quick Google, or forum, search), as I recall AICAR supposedly offers weight loss without that serious risk that cortisone produces.

The obvious question (i.e. Occam's Razor): Are we sure they (whoever they are) aren't using AICAR while stating that they use cortisone?

That would make more sense, and would be consistent with past behavior (altitude tents, etc.) to hide what is really going on.

On interval training (and this is what the NB above was for):

If people "probably would have thought" that interval training wouldn't benefit a highly trained athlete, and increase power (i.e. over shorter duration), then they are idiots.

That is what interval training is all about, and always has been. <insert facepalm>

It doesn't mean, however, that an athlete employing interval training can somehow avoid or offset the deteriorating impacts of longer-term cortisone use such as would be required for any meaningful weight-loss program.

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

just wait until Dawg and Richie go mutant in Catalunya. I expect some fireworks there.

You haven't seen the puny route, have you.

 

[jens_attacks]

Re: Re:

read the Dr Ferrari comments about bike weight and wheels

Despite " no-doping era" cyclists go faster than previous riders , but I remember Rominger's bike was 2-3 kgs heavier and wheels less performant than today.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=7122

So, given te mathematic 'rule' a kilo less means 20 seconds faster on a forty minute climb that would means our friend Ritchie was 40 seconds faster than one of the biggest Ferrari experiments of all time.

Sounds great.

don't believe what richie and froomey says. they are clever foxes and love to troll big time
when they come 0.3 w/kg near to that madone performance in an uphill time trial or MTF easy stage we talk.
but yeah i do luv the way they troll

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

(NB: Am trying to argue the point(s) in the post, and not the poster. If it appears otherwise, that is not the intent)

On #2, I am not going to do even a quick Google search. But, while someone(s) may be trying this, longer-term use of Cortisone is correlated with serious tissue/muscle loss, bone demineralisation, reduced protein synthesis, etc. issues. At least it did last time I looked.

So, it is possible that someone or some team could be using cortisone OOC, but only possible with serious risks.

And (without doing a quick Google, or forum, search), as I recall AICAR supposedly offers weight loss without that serious risk that cortisone produces.

The obvious question (i.e. Occam's Razor): Are we sure they (whoever they are) aren't using AICAR while stating that they use cortisone?

That would make more sense, and would be consistent with past behavior (altitude tents, etc.) to hide what is really going on.

On interval training (and this is what the NB above was for):

If people "probably would have thought" that interval training wouldn't benefit a highly trained athlete, and increase power (i.e. over shorter duration), then they are idiots.

That is what interval training is all about, and always has been. <insert facepalm>

It doesn't mean, however, that an athlete employing interval training can somehow avoid or offset the deteriorating impacts of longer-term cortisone use such as would be required for any meaningful weight-loss program.

Dave.

So, last reply before i have to head off.

Firstly, great post - engaging the argument, or as some would put it : playing the ball, rather than resorting other things.

You're definitely right on the cortisone side effects - well known. I guess it may partly explain why Sky riders seem to fall to pieces after a couple of years. I'll take what you say about AICAR as right - I haven't had time to look, not sure if its been around long enough for people to assess / understand the longer term risks.

As for whether they could be using AICAR but saying Cortisone. Of course that is entirely possible, but, in my view, carries some risks :

1. A new test appears that is implemented with little fanfare.
2. A leak from within the team / ex-team. What if one of the ZTP casualties went postal (pardon the expression) and started blurting it all out?
3. Someone gets careless with a syringe / packaging.
4. Retrospective testing is implemented whilst DB, or whoever, is still there covering the banned period.

All of those carry a risk of being popped and the house of cards falling down. OOC cortisone doesn't - with a decent doctor and some internal testing it would be easy to be 'ill' or have a complaint that required a TUE just in case. Combine that with other things (both grey and not so grey) and you could have a 'legal' program.

Interesting to note that one of the longer term side effects is high blood pressure. And what do we treat high blood pressure with? Telmisartan ...


As for the interval stuff - I think the point you're making is that it wouldn't be enough to compensate for the cortisone deterioration. But that deterioration is longer term is it not? Not in the 12 month build up to a GT. Again maybe helps explain the breakdown of riders after a few years.

 

[Bronstein]

Re: Re:

You're definitely right on the cortisone side effects - well known. I guess it may partly explain why Sky riders seem to fall to pieces after a couple of years.

Which Sky riders have fallen to pieces after a couple of years?

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Wiggo weight loss us taken from his 06 and 07 tours when he dedicated his entire years to doing well at the tour and didn't ride a single track event for 2 years. So no he wasn't an overweight track rider. Point dismissed.

He was world champion in 2007?

I know he was. He also did give up track for 2 years around the 2006 Tour de France, something doping apologists hate to see brought up because it destroys the original weak wiggo defense of - he became good in 2009 because he finally stopped being a track rider, not that that would be a half decent explanation anyway.

No he didn't he competed in several World Cup races.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

You're definitely right on the cortisone side effects - well known. I guess it may partly explain why Sky riders seem to fall to pieces after a couple of years.

Which Sky riders have fallen to pieces after a couple of years?

that's one thing.
more generally, the cortisone account does nothing to explain Sky's performances.
cortisone abuse has been rampant at least from the late 90s onwards.(*)
the cortisone also does nothing to explain peripheral phenomena such as Froome's dodgy Bilharzia account, or Sky's reluctance to provide Froome's pre-2011 BP data. That clearly points towards (usual disclaimer: doesn't prove) illegal manipulation of blood.
And a whole bunch of other stuff that just doesn't fit the cortisone account.

(*I remember reading that in 1999 (or 2000, not sure), anonymous testresults of the Giro showed 80 riders were on cortisone, a large amount with TUEs, and some without. I'll try to find a link to that, I might be wrong)

 

[sniper]

Re: Sky

link accompanying my previous post: http://www.sportpro.it/old_site/doping/ ... aleOLD.htm

Un appuntamento quasi clandestino: martedì 27 giugno, Hotel Astoria, Gallarate, un passo dalla Malpensa. I medici di molte squadre professioniste entrano furtivi uno ad uno, ad orari diversi. È una processione: dalle nove del mattino fino al primo pomeriggio. Tranne quelli della Mapei, ci sono tutti o quasi i sanitari delle squadre maggiori. Oggetto: ufficialmente controllo e chiarimenti richiesti dal dottor Zorzoli, rappresentante della commissione medica dell’Uci, riguardo il libretto medico dei corridori testati all’ultimo Giro d’Italia. Cosa è successo? Semplice: al Giro, nel rispetto di una nuova normativa, ai corridori sono stati fatti test anche per individuare i corticosteroidi, che, come noto, sono sostanze soggette per regolamento a restrizione d’uso. Sostanze l’uso terapeutico delle quali richiede – secondo le norme - una denuncia preventiva. Si sia controllati o no nei test antidoping, si ha l’obbligo di denunciare e scrivere sul libretto sanitario dell’atleta l’uso e la tipologia delle sostanze adoperate. Il bilancio dell’operazione-Giro è stato per certi versi choccante: nei test di almeno un’ottantina di corridori si sono trovate tracce importanti dell’uso di questi corticosteroidi e, a quanto riferiscono alcune voci, per almeno una ventina di essi la necessaria denuncia preventiva non c’era. Fatto che la dice lunga sulla presunta "inversione di tendenza" di certo ciclismo.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I am still confused why you post foreign content, going to the extent of highlighting it, when <1% of posters here can understand any of it.

 

[sniper]

provided you read what i post from time to time, you'll know that i mostly take quotes through g-translate myself before posting, especially when they're central to my argument.
i made an exception here, for three reasons: (a) the quote wasn't central to my argument, (b) i'm about to go eat, (c) there's a website that 99% of the posters know how to use: https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

provided you read what i post from time to time, you'll know that i mostly take quotes through g-translate myself before posting, especially when they're central to my argument.
i made an exception here, for three reasons: (a) the quote wasn't central to my argument, (b) i'm about to go eat, (c) there's a website that 99% of the posters know how to use: https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/

Sure, but posting readable content is more important than eating, surely

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

I am still confused why you post foreign content, going to the extent of highlighting it, when <1% of posters here can understand any of it.

In the good old days of Public Strategies interns <1% of the native English speaking posters could understand what was being posted.

We've come a long way baby.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Sure, but posting readable content is more important than eating, surely

ow i agree, but my wife doesn't

Anyway, my Italian sucks hard, and the g-translate isn't helpful here.
What I gather from my lousy italian combined with a bad g-translate is:
in the Giro of 2000 UCI did (anonymous?) tests on all (?) riders, I think urine tests, and I think specific cortisone testing. In any case, the part in boldface details that in the samples of 80 riders cortisone was found, and 20 of those riders did not have a TUE for it.
Perhaps somebody with Italian in his skillset can fill in any details i got wrong or left out.

 

[Benotti69]

Nico Roche admits using Tramadol 'once', but then goes to say it is not on the list.

So it appears it is ok for Roche to use stuff as long as it is not on the list. Heck anti doping is apparently 10 years behind so that leaves a huge plethora of substances that have not made the list, yet!

 

[Franklin]

If they win or not due to tactics.. Sky and Quickstep are urinating over the competition in Milan san Remo.

Hilarious really. Their collectives are just hammering everyone.

 

[the sceptic]

Thank god sky didn't win that.

 

[doperhopper]

and Astana so scared now to dope full genius that Nibs was dropped by none else than Greipy Gorilla

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

and Astana so scared now to dope full genius that Nibs was dropped by none else than Greipy Gorilla

but nibs never has a year round peak. Last year he was rubbish until the National Road Race, for instance. He'll be good in time for the Tour

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

and Astana so scared now to dope full genius that Nibs was dropped by none else than Greipy Gorilla

but nibs never has a year round peak. Last year he was rubbish until the National Road Race, for instance. He'll be good in time for the Tour

Never?

 

[TailWindHome]

Re:

Nico Roche admits using Tramadol 'once', but then goes to say it is not on the list.

So it appears it is ok for Roche to use stuff as long as it is not on the list. Heck anti doping is apparently 10 years behind so that leaves a huge plethora of substances that have not made the list, yet!

How else are you going to define cheating?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Barry said he used Tramadol during the first year at Sky, (2010) and Sky agreed that it was used initially, but hasn't been since that first year.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

Sure, but posting readable content is more important than eating, surely

ow i agree, but my wife doesn't

Anyway, my Italian sucks hard, and the g-translate isn't helpful here.
What I gather from my lousy italian combined with a bad g-translate is:
in the Giro of 2000 UCI did (anonymous?) tests on all (?) riders, I think urine tests, and I think specific cortisone testing. In any case, the part in boldface details that in the samples of 80 riders cortisone was found, and 20 of those riders did not have a TUE for it.
Perhaps somebody with Italian in his skillset can fill in any details i got wrong or left out.

Yeah, I'm going to summarize again. RCS is all about burying positives. Another example, Zomnegan promised CERA tests and that never happened. Since Zomnegan himself promised the tests, I take that to mean RCS is the anti-doping authority for the Giro.

Since this is cycling, we can assume the worst.

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Nico Roche admits using Tramadol 'once', but then goes to say it is not on the list.

Is Tramadol on the prohibited list?


Posted from my iPhone.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Nico Roche admits using Tramadol 'once', but then goes to say it is not on the list.

Is Tramadol on the prohibited list?


Posted from my iPhone.

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com ... ist-en.pdf

 

[TheSpud]

I can't get that on my phone where I am. Is that the prohibited list?