Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

I'm sure the Kenyan road bikes and skin suits were a similar quality for performance as Australia's, as the 20 year old Kenyan went against the Australian TT champ

Froome during his 2010 Commonwealth ride when he placed 5th. That looks like top-of-the-line Sky gear to me.

He finished 2'20" behind winner St. David of Millar, 1'20" behind a 19-year-old Luke Durbridge and six seconds behind world famous TT whizz Mitchell Hutchinson.



By the way, I intenionally misspelt Hutch's name. Did you notice? Did you care? Doubt it.

 

[sittingbison]

Dawg ITT pics fixed

cheers
bison

 

[blackcat]

he was really lean in those tt pics.

really lean.

but just lean, cyclist muscles on legs, like, proper road cyclist muscles on legs to pedal the damn bike,

and he was riding about 30thousand miles a year as a professional, so he had no bodyweight to lose. no puppy fat, just the normal cheeks of a 21yo or 25yo cyclist.

so it is something new they use, not clen, not cortisone, not hgh.

it will be a peptide that wiggins and nibali and some others, like chris horner, have used to render more tissue. #NOTNORMAL

 

[Mr.38%]

Re:

he was really lean in those tt pics.

really lean.

but just lean, cyclist muscles on legs, like, proper road cyclist muscles on legs to pedal the damn bike,

and he was riding about 30thousand miles a year as a professional, so he had no bodyweight to lose. no puppy fat, just the normal cheeks of a 21yo or 25yo cyclist.

so it is something new they use, not clen, not cortisone, not hgh.

it will be a peptide that wiggins and nibali and some others, like chris horner, have used to render more tissue. #NOTNORMAL

e x a c t l y!

 

[Lyon]

Re: Incremental gains at sky

Sustained ketosis at altitude or during periods of prolonged exercise reduces the respiratory quotient (0.7-0.66) and will therefore increase the bulk inflow of oxygen. This will increase oxygen delivery and therefore oxygen consumption and increase anaerobic threshold.

Perceived effort may also be lower enabling greater maximal effort after 4 hours of racing.

Sky sport scientists have been working on this for years.

Not reducing (absolute) oxygen consumption but that % carried within the blood.

The problem was always that even after training the body, the effect was easily lost in a stage race where after 3 days the body is requiring so much energy that direct glycolysis again becomes the main source of conversion. What have the Sky scientists come up with to overcome that ?

After trying to reinvent the wheel for a few years they concluded that drugs works.

 

[Cramps]

Re:

For me transparency is binary. You either are or you aren't.

If you are saying that you won't be satisfied until you get to see Froome's training diary and his daily intakes of every nutrient and drug then it's pointless.

A more realistic approach but much more difficult, would be to try to identify what/how information could be released that could satisfy concerns about cheating, yet still allow teams to pursue legitimate ways to improve training and performance.

Altneratively eliminate the possibility of competitive advantage through training -- eg by the cyclists live in cages and get their standardised rations through the bars.

 

[Pierrot le Fou]

In terms of transparency, Pinot released these figures from yesterday: http://www.srm.de/news/road-cycling/tour-de-france-2015-stage-17/

Difficult for Sky to claim they are being as open as any team when you compare with the PSM figures for Froome that were released.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

For me transparency is binary. You either are or you aren't.

If you are saying that you

I actually wrote what I meant. It went something like this:

The data release from Sky -- including what they fed Grappe (and who they fed it to) -- is the opposite of transparency. It makes the picture murkier, less clear.

 

[Tommy79]

Re: Re:

What facts would be needed for you to believe Sky's results are due to doping?

Please say positive tests. Please say positive tests. Please say positive tests.

It would be Armstrong all over again for real.

Obviously a positive test would do it. But more likely someone in the team or an ex team member blabbing. Or someone from from the UCI/anti doping blabbing of cover-ups, if something as trivial as a solitary TUE gets leaked how is some vast conspiracy staying quiet? Evidence against one of the other top GC guys would also shake my current belief.

Things that don't bother me

1. Winning
2. Using words that Armstrong used, I'm sure Armstrong has used most words over his lifetime.
3. Saying he is beating "Known dopers" when said doping was by someone rubbish doping just to get a world tour contract or by someone good who doped many years ago. The clinic assumption that every ex doper is still on the drugs is a very Daily Mail point of view. Every civilised justice system assumes people can change... should people with a record be more closely monitored? Sure. Should we assume they are still on it? No.
4. Sky's ZTP failures - nope, generally for the reasons given in 3. Is it far fetched that Leinder's would jump at the chance to work as just a race doctor? Nope.
5. Lack of transparency... it seems reasonable that training power data would contain there entire training plan and they would want to keep it secret. And then what value does race data have? Not a lot.

What would make you believe he is clean?

Edit - grammar fail on point 4.

 

[Ironhead Slim]

@Tommy79

Something, other than doping, to explain his sudden transformation.

 

[Tommy79]

Re:

@Tommy79

Something, other than doping, to explain his sudden transformation.

Have always thought he had to be very special to have got the World Tour from where he came from, the question is why he didn't crack on earlier. Someone with only the natural talent to be pack fodder wouldn't have made it.

Many reasons for this discussed in the threads, being left to his own devices training wise, illness, total lack of racecraft have been dismissed out of hand for no good reason other than they don't fit the doping dialogue. There's not one simple answer so it's easy to sneer and shoot down little things individually and ignore what they add up to.

And I haven't seen a realistic theory about how him in particular would get so good with drugs... if it's a team thing why start him then? If individual how was he protected? The secret new drug that only him and Wiggins have ever responded to is particularly laughable. How do you think it went down?

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

@Tommy79

Something, other than doping, to explain his sudden transformation.

Have always thought he had to be very special to have got the World Tour from where he came from, the question is why he didn't crack on earlier. Someone with only the natural talent to be pack fodder wouldn't have made it.

Many reasons for this discussed in the threads, being left to his own devices training wise, illness, total lack of racecraft have been dismissed out of hand for no good reason other than they don't fit the doping dialogue. There's not one simple answer so it's easy to sneer and shoot down little things individually and ignore what they add up to.

And I haven't seen a realistic theory about how him in particular would get so good with drugs... if it's a team thing why start him then? If individual how was he protected? The secret new drug that only him and Wiggins have ever responded to is particularly laughable. How do you think it went down?

...yea, because Armstrong didn't have a competitive advantage with his doping, so there is no precedent for that kind of thing...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

 

[Tommy79]

Re: Re:

@Tommy79

Something, other than doping, to explain his sudden transformation.

Have always thought he had to be very special to have got the World Tour from where he came from, the question is why he didn't crack on earlier. Someone with only the natural talent to be pack fodder wouldn't have made it.

Many reasons for this discussed in the threads, being left to his own devices training wise, illness, total lack of racecraft have been dismissed out of hand for no good reason other than they don't fit the doping dialogue. There's not one simple answer so it's easy to sneer and shoot down little things individually and ignore what they add up to.

And I haven't seen a realistic theory about how him in particular would get so good with drugs... if it's a team thing why start him then? If individual how was he protected? The secret new drug that only him and Wiggins have ever responded to is particularly laughable. How do you think it went down?

...yea, because Armstrong didn't have a competitive advantage with his doping, so there is no precedent for that kind of thing...

I have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[blackcat]

weightloss from doping

 

[wendybnt]

Re: Re:

@Tommy79

Something, other than doping, to explain his sudden transformation.

Have always thought he had to be very special to have got the World Tour from where he came from, the question is why he didn't crack on earlier. Someone with only the natural talent to be pack fodder wouldn't have made it.

Many reasons for this discussed in the threads, being left to his own devices training wise, illness, total lack of racecraft have been dismissed out of hand for no good reason other than they don't fit the doping dialogue. There's not one simple answer so it's easy to sneer and shoot down little things individually and ignore what they add up to.

And I haven't seen a realistic theory about how him in particular would get so good with drugs... if it's a team thing why start him then? If individual how was he protected? The secret new drug that only him and Wiggins have ever responded to is particularly laughable. How do you think it went down?

Even if everybody is doped, somebody will still win. Does that help explain it?

Quite what is going on nobody knows. Contador is a shadow of his former self, and Froome doesn't look as strong as Contador used to when he was a Fuentes client. The current Froome would have been minced by a pre-ban Contador.....but now he da man.

 

[Tommy79]

Re:

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

How does a cheat ride?

I expect athletes to get quicker over time as sports science improves, and yes overtake times set by dopers. Just as swimmers have beaten times set using now banned swimsuits.

I know some here believe we live in a utopia where everything about the human body is known, there are no more gains to be found and presumably there is no more disease. A generation ago you had cyclists starving themselves on rest days.

 

[wendybnt]

Re:

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

Better not tell Nibali or Contador that Froome's single Vuelta stage win, and single GT win makes him the most most dominant GT rider of this generation

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

How does a cheat ride?

I expect athletes to get quicker over time as sports science improves, and yes overtake times set by dopers. Just as swimmers have beaten times set using now banned swimsuits.

I know some here believe we live in a utopia where everything about the human body is known, there are no more gains to be found and presumably there is no more disease. A generation ago you had cyclists starving themselves on rest days.

Deductive fallacy and non-sequitur, are we playing logic bingo?

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

How does a cheat ride?

He described it in the previous paragraph, no?

I expect athletes to get quicker over time as sports science improves, and yes overtake times set by dopers. Just as swimmers have beaten times set using now banned swimsuits.

So in about 3-5 years, the human body advanced around 15%, such that a clean rider can equal the best times of the best dopers from a few years previous, and can beat all comers, including whomever is currently doping. Makes sense.

I know some here believe we live in a utopia where everything about the human body is known, there are no more gains to be found and presumably there is no more disease.

And yet no one has claimed anything of the sort. If you have to make things up for your argument to work, you have no argument.

 

[Tommy79]

Re: Re:

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

How does a cheat ride?

I expect athletes to get quicker over time as sports science improves, and yes overtake times set by dopers. Just as swimmers have beaten times set using now banned swimsuits.

I know some here believe we live in a utopia where everything about the human body is known, there are no more gains to be found and presumably there is no more disease. A generation ago you had cyclists starving themselves on rest days.

Deductive fallacy and non-sequitur, are we playing logic bingo?

Ahhh, smug superiority with no content, that's put me back in my box and no mistake!

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Froome, prior to becoming the most dominant GT rider of this generation, won the Atomic Jock Race, and came in 5th in the Commonwealth TT...but that's all because of p!ss poor training, and Badzilla and stuff...which explains why Sky won't release his data prior to the 2011 Vuelta...because they just needed to train him better to get that result.

When a rider rides like a cheat, has a MASSIVE (unexpected) rise in performance, and beats the times of known cheats (who were oxygen vector doping), you'll have to excuse us if we're skeptical...

How does a cheat ride?

I expect athletes to get quicker over time as sports science improves, and yes overtake times set by dopers. Just as swimmers have beaten times set using now banned swimsuits.

I know some here believe we live in a utopia where everything about the human body is known, there are no more gains to be found and presumably there is no more disease. A generation ago you had cyclists starving themselves on rest days.

Deductive fallacy and non-sequitur, are we playing logic bingo?

Ahhh, smug superiority with no content, that's put me back in my box and no mistake!

As long as I don't have to pay any postage!

Deductive fallacy:

Swimmers are beating times set in illegal suits, therefore training must be improving. No, correlation does not equal causation. It's perfectly possible doping practices are improving and in fact is highly likely. Either way, there is no evidence. You might as well say that there has been a black pudding shortage and that's affecting swimmers.

Non-sequitur:

Making up an argument you think applies to posters in the clinic and applying it with a broad brush in an attempt to enforce your own position.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Black Pudding shortage ?

Say it ain't so

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Black Pudding shortage ?

Say it ain't so

The economy problems have hit Bury market hard...

 

[BYOP88]

Re:

Black Pudding shortage ?

Say it ain't so

Must be linked to this Greece/EU thing.