Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I freely admit to enjoying the sweet elixir of schadenfreude.

Where are all those Sky defenders now? Very strangely silent about this news.

I want more of those accusations of us wearing tin foil hats and more demands for plain, common sense empirical evidence.

Still yet to see evidence of wrong doing, they followed the rules set out. We have no right to the medical records of anybody. The treatment was prescribed by a doctor outside the team and the TUE's issued within the rules. It's a bit of a PR headache for Sky but the news cycle being what it is it will eventually fade into the background.

Ahh, nice. Thankyou. I was waiting for that.

Your statement is logically consistent and legally correct. I do not think this makes it true.

I think it is also incredibly reductive. Let me ask you this: if I grant you that the letter of the law was adhered to, do you agree that the spirit of the law was not?

And further: what do you make of the tremendous inconsistency - actually it's more, it's an outright contradiction - between what Sky have been telling us about their methods, and what methods they actually use?

Do you think this is an arbitrary contradiction? If so, why?

I would pose to you that the gap between the discourse of 'marginal gains' and the practice of powerful steroid use is impossible to gloss over with sweet and clever PR. That's why they've shut the hell up.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I freely admit to enjoying the sweet elixir of schadenfreude.

Where are all those Sky defenders now? Very strangely silent about this news.

I want more of those accusations of us wearing tin foil hats and more demands for plain, common sense empirical evidence.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Random Direction]

Wiggins proved himself to be an old school doper. Of course the fake uci - complicit TUE was only part of the preparation used. Any guesses as to the day he popped a blood bag? In love with Lance, so probably used similar methods and timing.

Of course B rails ford and the fat one knew - they were in on the deal to have the first Limey grand tour winner. Wonder if they or their families made betting money off it?

Similarly, and with the same conditions, Froome has been the selected winner for the past while.

Didn't Pat even say that sky was going to win in the early stages of one tour?

Follow the money. The real question is who from sky paid what to Pat to get the whole nonsense started.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Wiggins proved himself to be an old school doper. Of course the fake uci - complicit TUE was only part of the preparation used. Any guesses as to the day he popped a blood bag? In love with Lance, so probably used similar methods and timing.

Of course B rails ford and the fat one knew - they were in on the deal to have the first Limey grand tour winner. Wonder if they or their families made betting money off it?

Similarly, and with the same conditions, Froome has been the selected winner for the past while.

Didn't Pat even say that sky was going to win in the early stages of one tour?

Follow the money. The real question is who from sky paid what to Pat to get the whole nonsense started.

In 2012 he said that he was going to the Sky victory party when there were still a couple of mountain stages left.

 

[MatParker117]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/

“An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,” said Lipworth . “The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was cheating by taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone.”

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would “reduce proximal muscle mass”.

Both men, however, described injected triamcinolone as a last resort, with potential side effects including “cataracts, high blood pressure, diabetes, bone-thinning and Achilles tendon ruptures”.

“It would cure his [Wiggins’s] hay fever, no doubt about that,” Lipworth said. “But the side effects are totally unacceptable in my humble opinion. We see patients who get side effects even on the higher potency inhaled corticosteroids like fluticasone, let alone injectables, which is why it’s utterly bonkers to prescribe it.

“Maybe he had tried everything and this was a last resort. But it still seems a bit bizarre to me when there are so many alternatives which are just as effective but with less severe adverse effects.”

Wiggins, meanwhile, appears poised to prolong his road career nine days after declaring that was “certainly it for the road” after the final stage of the Tour of Britain.

 

[Random Direction]

Yes, thank you for alerting me to Sky PRs roll out of yet another 'expert' who will say that it is not performance enhancing and instead was just plain stupid. PR 101 - the public expert assertion. Well done Sky to combine it with the limited hangout and severing of Brad from the central core. Hopefully they don't make the Landis mistake and pay brave Sir Brad of Robin well. Then again Floyd has some good stuff in Leadville and the knight is known to toke a joint.

 

[meat puppet]

Mkay.

So lemme understand this: these commentators quoted above in Matparker's post are arguing that "the Sir" used stuff that actually hampered his performance because the substances "reduce muscle mass". Was it out of royal generosity towards the lesser competitors or plain ol' bone-idleness on his part I wonder. Why didn't the good staff at Sky, being super sciency and all, tell him that this is harmful?

I mean surely the contemporary GC boys would not want to reduce muscle mass. Just google pics of the Sir at the 2012 TDF or froome for that matter.

However I trust that these decorated commentators know better. So what am I missing here?

 

[buckle]

Re:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/

“An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,” said Lipworth . “The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was cheating by taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone.”

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would “reduce proximal muscle mass”.

Both men, however, described injected triamcinolone as a last resort, with potential side effects including “cataracts, high blood pressure, diabetes, bone-thinning and Achilles tendon ruptures”.

“It would cure his [Wiggins’s] hay fever, no doubt about that,” Lipworth said. “But the side effects are totally unacceptable in my humble opinion. We see patients who get side effects even on the higher potency inhaled corticosteroids like fluticasone, let alone injectables, which is why it’s utterly bonkers to prescribe it.

“Maybe he had tried everything and this was a last resort. But it still seems a bit bizarre to me when there are so many alternatives which are just as effective but with less severe adverse effects.”

Wiggins, meanwhile, appears poised to prolong his road career nine days after declaring that was “certainly it for the road” after the final stage of the Tour of Britain.

It's the side effects he took it for ...

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/

“An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,” said Lipworth . “The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was cheating by taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone.”

Ian Pavord, a Professor of Respiratory Medicine at the University of Oxford, said he too doubted injected triamcinolone could help athletic performance as it would “reduce proximal muscle mass”.

Both men, however, described injected triamcinolone as a last resort, with potential side effects including “cataracts, high blood pressure, diabetes, bone-thinning and Achilles tendon ruptures”.

“It would cure his [Wiggins’s] hay fever, no doubt about that,” Lipworth said. “But the side effects are totally unacceptable in my humble opinion. We see patients who get side effects even on the higher potency inhaled corticosteroids like fluticasone, let alone injectables, which is why it’s utterly bonkers to prescribe it.

“Maybe he had tried everything and this was a last resort. But it still seems a bit bizarre to me when there are so many alternatives which are just as effective but with less severe adverse effects.”

Wiggins, meanwhile, appears poised to prolong his road career nine days after declaring that was “certainly it for the road” after the final stage of the Tour of Britain.

It's the side effects he took it for ...

Risking a serious injury during key goals?

 

[sniper]

“The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was cheating by taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone.”

Imagine Wiggins doing that.
Impossibru.
He'd be caught and exposed by UCI's independent antidoping protocols and he'd now be stacking shelves in tesco.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Yes, thank you for alerting me to Sky PRs roll out of yet another 'expert' who will say that it is not performance enhancing and instead was just plain stupid. PR 101 - the public expert assertion. Well done Sky to combine it with the limited hangout and severing of Brad from the central core. Hopefully they don't make the Landis mistake and pay brave Sir Brad of Robin well. Then again Floyd has some good stuff in Leadville and the knight is known to toke a joint.

Yeah, Ian Povard, just some random expert to roll out.

 

[buckle]

Re: Re:

Yes, thank you for alerting me to Sky PRs roll out of yet another 'expert' who will say that it is not performance enhancing and instead was just plain stupid. PR 101 - the public expert assertion. Well done Sky to combine it with the limited hangout and severing of Brad from the central core. Hopefully they don't make the Landis mistake and pay brave Sir Brad of Robin well. Then again Floyd has some good stuff in Leadville and the knight is known to toke a joint.

Yeah, Ian Povard, just some random expert to roll out.

Yes Froome contacted him to conduct tests to prove his cleanliness.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Sky

3. If I travel to other areas of Europe during this time, often it’s not as bad as I suffer in the UK.

As a very bad hayfever patient I have the same experience. Keep in mind that almost nobody is allergic to all pollen, generally it's a few specific ones.

AFAIK allergy needs to be built up. So when I was in Japan during spring I was perfectly fine as the pollen there did not trigger my allergies. However, if I would stay a few months in Japan chances I would become allergic to a local pollen would be huge.

What's important here is that it's not clear which pollen he is allergic about. If it's common grass going to France would probably not really help.

Another remark AFAIK: bloom windows are just a few weeks, so if you are allergic for longer periods (say 6 weeks) it's highly likely you are allergic to several pollens. So being allergic in both May (Giro) and July(TdF) is quite a long window, but not impossible.

The major conclusion I draw from this is that once again it's 100% clear that Dave Brailsford is a liar and is a blight on this sport. Wiggins might really have allergies, but it flies straight into the face of DB's policies. This isn't the first time he has been caught lying about something that really borders on doping related circumstances (personel comes to mind). Clearly this makes anything DB says about doping circumspect.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Sky

3. If I travel to other areas of Europe during this time, often it’s not as bad as I suffer in the UK.

As a very bad hayfever patient I have the same experience. Keep in mind that almost nobody is allergic to all pollen, generally it's a few specific ones.

AFAIK allergy needs to be built up. So when I was in Japan during spring I was perfectly fine as the pollen there did not trigger my allergies. However, if I would stay a few months in Japan chances I would become allergic to a local pollen would be huge.

What's important here is that it's not clear which pollen he is allergic about. If it's common grass going to France would probably not really help.

Another remark AFAIK: bloom windows are just a few weeks, so if you are allergic for longer periods (say 6 weeks) it's highly likely you are allergic to several pollens. So being allergic in both May (Giro) and July(TdF) is quite a long window, but not impossible.

The major conclusion I draw from this is that once again it's 100% clear that Dave Brailsford is a liar and is a blight on this sport. Wiggins might really have allergies, but it flies straight into the face of DB's policies. This isn't the first time he has been caught lying about something that really borders on doping related circumstances (personel comes to mind). Clearly this makes anything DB says about doping circumspect.

Like I say, I have had allergies for 20+ years at the same time each year. People I know who don't suffer from hayfever only get the odd sneeze on an extremely high pollen day but this might be 1 or 2 days a year.

For a genuine case of annual hayfever I would expect to see a Pro Rider getting a TUE at the same point each year over a number of years - not just 1 or 2 years. I would also expect medication to begin with mild prescription and get stronger according to how bad the allergy is. My doctor certainly wouldn't put me on horse drugs unless every other milder medication tried over previous years had been attempted and failed.

As for Brailsford he is 'marginal gains, extreme attention to detail' when its suits his agenda and 'whoops how did that happen' when it doesn't. Kinda like how a lot of politicians and CEO's of large corporations distance themselves from culpability when *** hits the fan.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Sky

For a genuine case of annual hayfever I would expect to see a Pro Rider getting a TUE at the same point each year over a number of years - not just 1 or 2 years.

I agree with your gradual medication argument instead of starting to use the nuclear option. However, some serious illness could cause someone to become allergic overnight (it happened to me). Again, it's rare and even though in my case it was extremely bad, they sure as hell didn't start to inject me with steroids. Do I think this is likely the case with Wiggins? Not really, but it's not unheard of.

Also the timing of the start of the pollen window really can shift a few weeks earlier or later over the years in my experience, perhaps past 3 weeks (for example a Giro). That said, the gap between Giro and TdF is really unlikely. It's hard to imagine having to go nuclear at different periods of different years as you would be targeting different pollen. Even with a shift of a few weeks, it's extremely strange that you wont need at least mild medication in other years considering the same pollen strands would be around every year.

As a hayfever patient who has been driven to sheer despair (people with bad hayfever understand that this is no exaggeration) I do admit that if I would get the option to go nuclear I would immediately take it, so I'm willing to toy with the thought WIggins meant well.

It's really not consequential.. the problem is the TUE itself with the accompanying lies, being justified or not changes little.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Sky

For a genuine case of annual hayfever I would expect to see a Pro Rider getting a TUE at the same point each year over a number of years - not just 1 or 2 years.

I agree with your gradual medication argument instead of starting to use the nuclear option. However, some serious illness could cause someone to become allergic overnight (it happened to me). Again, it's rare and even though in my case it was extremely bad, they sure as hell didn't start to inject me with steroids. Do I think this is likely the case with Wiggins? Not really, but it's not unheard of.

Also the timing of the start of the pollen window really can shift a few weeks earlier or later over the years in my experience, perhaps past 3 weeks (for example a Giro). That said, the gap between Giro and TdF is really unlikely. It's hard to imagine having to go nuclear at different periods of different years as you would be targeting different pollen. Even with a shift of a few weeks, it's extremely strange that you wont need at least mild medication in other years considering the same pollen strands would be around every year.

As a hayfever patient who has been driven to sheer despair (people with bad hayfever understand that this is no exaggeration) I do admit that if I would get the option to go nuclear I would immediately take it, so I'm willing to toy with the thought WIggins meant well.

It's really not consequential.. the problem is the TUE itself with the accompanying lies, being justified or not changes little.

Wiggins did shift his priorities to Track Cycling which is an indoor, winter sport.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Sky

It's really not consequential.. the problem is the TUE itself with the accompanying lies, being justified or not changes little

I agree.

Brailsfords problem is this - he is all about controlled situations and known variables and in his world that is what he can deal with. Marry this with the Murdoch media empire and you can see how this 'illusion of control' stacks up.

However not in a million years did he see this leak coming and for once he cant control or manage it. The only way he can do so is by throwing Wiggins under a bus which Wiggins wont allow without some collateral damage in return. So DB is in a double bind.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Sky

3. If I travel to other areas of Europe during this time, often it’s not as bad as I suffer in the UK.

As a very bad hayfever patient I have the same experience. Keep in mind that almost nobody is allergic to all pollen, generally it's a few specific ones.

AFAIK allergy needs to be built up. So when I was in Japan during spring I was perfectly fine as the pollen there did not trigger my allergies. However, if I would stay a few months in Japan chances I would become allergic to a local pollen would be huge.

What's important here is that it's not clear which pollen he is allergic about. If it's common grass going to France would probably not really help.

Another remark AFAIK: bloom windows are just a few weeks, so if you are allergic for longer periods (say 6 weeks) it's highly likely you are allergic to several pollens. So being allergic in both May (Giro) and July(TdF) is quite a long window, but not impossible.

The major conclusion I draw from this is that once again it's 100% clear that Dave Brailsford is a liar and is a blight on this sport. Wiggins might really have allergies, but it flies straight into the face of DB's policies. This isn't the first time he has been caught lying about something that really borders on doping related circumstances (personel comes to mind). Clearly this makes anything DB says about doping circumspect.

Like I say, I have had allergies for 20+ years at the same time each year. People I know who don't suffer from hayfever only get the odd sneeze on an extremely high pollen day but this might be 1 or 2 days a year.

For a genuine case of annual hayfever I would expect to see a Pro Rider getting a TUE at the same point each year over a number of years - not just 1 or 2 years. I would also expect medication to begin with mild prescription and get stronger according to how bad the allergy is. My doctor certainly wouldn't put me on horse drugs unless every other milder medication tried over previous years had been attempted and failed.

As for Brailsford he is 'marginal gains, extreme attention to detail' when its suits his agenda and 'whoops how did that happen' when it doesn't. Kinda like how a lot of politicians and CEO's of large corporations distance themselves from culpability when **** hits the fan.

then you're wrong. if I go to italy in may the pollen are much different than in england, much more advanced and even grasses might already produce pollen there and won't in england for at least another month.

 

[sniper]

Re: Sky

For a genuine case of annual hayfever I would expect to see a Pro Rider getting a TUE at the same point each year over a number of years - not just 1 or 2 years.

I agree with your gradual medication argument instead of starting to use the nuclear option. However, some serious illness could cause someone to become allergic overnight (it happened to me). Again, it's rare and even though in my case it was extremely bad, they sure as hell didn't start to inject me with steroids. Do I think this is likely the case with Wiggins? Not really, but it's not unheard of.

Also the timing of the start of the pollen window really can shift a few weeks earlier or later over the years in my experience, perhaps past 3 weeks (for example a Giro). That said, the gap between Giro and TdF is really unlikely. It's hard to imagine having to go nuclear at different periods of different years as you would be targeting different pollen. Even with a shift of a few weeks, it's extremely strange that you wont need at least mild medication in other years considering the same pollen strands would be around every year.

As a hayfever patient who has been driven to sheer despair (people with bad hayfever understand that this is no exaggeration) I do admit that if I would get the option to go nuclear I would immediately take it, so I'm willing to toy with the thought WIggins meant well.

It's really not consequential.. the problem is the TUE itself with the accompanying lies, being justified or not changes little.

Wiggins did shift his priorities to Track Cycling which is an indoor, winter sport.

the consistency with which you bring up new excuses for this fiasco is laudable.
but again this one doesn't quite cut it.
if he'd switched to the track to overcome his pollen allergies and/or asthma, he'd have said so, somewhere.

if you say he switched to the track because he was fed up of being pricked like a labrat throughout the season, I might believe you.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

And then Saint Millar of Garmin has a go at Sky: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/19/drugs-used-by-sir-bradley-wiggins-should-be-banned-says-david-mi/

John Swanson

This was either orchestrated via sister Fran, Sky Press officer, or Millar put his foot in his mouth. I can't imagine Millar having a dig at his mate Brailsford.

If I were Wiggo I'd feel right pissed. Despite his obvious doping Sky are ready to cut him loose. No one is bigger than the Sky team. They will now hitch their train to the Froome express and leave Wiggo as a forgotten memory. Sky most likely know what else Fancy has up its sleeve (via WADA security team) and they have to make him look like the lone gunman in the book depository rather than part of a team doping effort. Cycling just goes in circles, always the rider, not he team.

I don't think that Sky would dump him just like that. I am sure they don't want another Floyd Landis in their hands. Hopefully everyone learned their lesson very well!

 

[Franklin]

Re: Sky

then you're wrong. if I go to italy in may the pollen are much different than in england, much more advanced and even grasses might already produce pollen there and won't in england for at least another month.

*Drumroll*

So in other years he did not suffer from this terrible hayfever? As I said Ryo, even you know this is really unlikely (and thats besides the using a nuclear bomb before even trying something more mundane).

I await the amazing reply that makes this unconvenient fact disappear

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Sky

For a genuine case of annual hayfever I would expect to see a Pro Rider getting a TUE at the same point each year over a number of years - not just 1 or 2 years.

I agree with your gradual medication argument instead of starting to use the nuclear option. However, some serious illness could cause someone to become allergic overnight (it happened to me). Again, it's rare and even though in my case it was extremely bad, they sure as hell didn't start to inject me with steroids. Do I think this is likely the case with Wiggins? Not really, but it's not unheard of.

Also the timing of the start of the pollen window really can shift a few weeks earlier or later over the years in my experience, perhaps past 3 weeks (for example a Giro). That said, the gap between Giro and TdF is really unlikely. It's hard to imagine having to go nuclear at different periods of different years as you would be targeting different pollen. Even with a shift of a few weeks, it's extremely strange that you wont need at least mild medication in other years considering the same pollen strands would be around every year.

As a hayfever patient who has been driven to sheer despair (people with bad hayfever understand that this is no exaggeration) I do admit that if I would get the option to go nuclear I would immediately take it, so I'm willing to toy with the thought WIggins meant well.

It's really not consequential.. the problem is the TUE itself with the accompanying lies, being justified or not changes little.

Wiggins did shift his priorities to Track Cycling which is an indoor, winter sport.

So? He was taking a nuclear medicine approach to treat allergies? He was also racing road, not living indoors 24/7 so where are the TUEs? His allergies ere so bad and now gone, Wow, the modern athlete!

I think August was the Olympics. This year track WC was in March, spring.

 

[Franklin]

His World Record was 7 june.

It's flat out ridiculous he needs a nuclear bomb to treat pollen one year and then doesn't need it when he rides the World Record.

And no, it's ridiulously idiotic to even suggest that riding indoors makes all the difference. As a hayfever patient I wish it was that easy. Even if I stay at home all day, as soon as my children enter the house it's all hell breaking loose due to pollen in their hair/clothes.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Yes, thank you for alerting me to Sky PRs roll out of yet another 'expert' who will say that it is not performance enhancing and instead was just plain stupid. PR 101 - the public expert assertion. Well done Sky to combine it with the limited hangout and severing of Brad from the central core. Hopefully they don't make the Landis mistake and pay brave Sir Brad of Robin well. Then again Floyd has some good stuff in Leadville and the knight is known to toke a joint.

Yeah, Ian Povard, just some random expert to roll out.

Yes Froome contacted him to conduct tests to prove his cleanliness.

Another anecdote?

 

[heart_attack_man]

I don't even understand why the point about his allergies is continuing to be discussed. It's all conflagration and obfuscation. Bottom line is that he may or may not even suffer from allergies - it's beside the point. The duplicitousness and doublespeak of Wiggins and Team Sky is really what's under the microscope here. Anyone who goes on about seeing a needle and going "Oh Sh*t" and then attempting to explain it away by saying that his injections were intramuscular and not intravenous is so disingenuous that he seems to think people are fools.

Here is what an intravenous needle looks like:

Here is what an intramuscular needle looks like:

Oh Sh*t indeed....