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Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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May 26, 2010
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JRanton said:
laughingcavalier said:
JRanton said:
Eyeballs Out said:
Robert5091 said:
So who told the Mail about the delivery of goodies to Wiggens?
BC still not plugged that leak. That big overlap with the national federation has worked well for years but it's really come back to bite Sky this year

Yeah, there's been someone at the Manchester Velodrome feeding the Daily Mail's Matt Lawton for ages. That has included confidential medical information so god knows why the leak hasn't been closed down yet.

This means that we must consider the very real possibility that British Cycling employs at least one person who is against PEDs, cheating and hype.

Or more likely, at least one person who enjoys taking a few quid from a newspaper in return for stories.

No evidence of anyone taking money, but hey if someone dare suggest impropriety about a British cycling team in a sport with a history so dirty that other sports regularly compare themselves to in order to look clean, the outrage form posters about no evidence of doping.

It doesn't matter if they are taking money for facts. Better than cheating at sport!

But again the obfuscation is the answer rather than the outrage that Sky were doping and cheating. Shoot the messengers. Chapeau.
 
May 26, 2010
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MatParker117 said:
I simply wait for the process to finish before making my own decision, until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing, it's proof of shitty crises management not of an anti doping violation.

The burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies

But you are not waiting. You are on forum defending Sky.

As sniper put it very well, declaring one clean in this sport does indeed carry the burden of proof.

Sky have shown themselves to be nothing but a weak version of USPS.

Wiggins 'never tested positive'......'no proof of wrong doing'.

The proof of wrong doing is there for all to see. 3 TUEs for an alleged yet unproven allergy and asthma! If TUEs were legit there would a paper trail going back to Wiggins childhood!
 
May 26, 2010
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Freddythefrog said:
This stance is making you look like one of those idiot yellow wrist band wearers in 2012. "It is the word of a load of proven liars. Didn't Floyd tell us once that he was innocent and asked us to pay to his fund to fight for justice !" For many of them, it was only when Lance went on Oprah that the scales dropped, and their "steadfast" allegiance was seen as just foolish, immature, behaviour every bit as ridiculous as following the religious cult of Sun Myung Moon. It is exactly this type of response in a minority of people that these criminals rely on to promote themselves. It always turns out badly for the followers.

Lovely paragraph.

Well said FtF :cool:
 
Re:

MatParker117 said:
I simply wait for the process to finish before making my own decision, until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing, it's proof of shitty crises management not of an anti doping violation.

The burden of proof is on the one who declares, not on one who denies

In a murder case, yes. In pro-cycling, no. It is neither rational nor objective to assume clean in this context.
You want to assert a system of perfectly objective justice divorced from historical and institutional reality. What you really need to contemplate is the Machiavellian way cycling teams and governing bodies have ruthlessly exploited that presumption of innocence. For decades.

They have done so so relentlessly and for so long that they are simply no longer entitled to it as a first principle.

The rational fan (or journalist) who knows the sport well, is totally justified in saying "the benefit of the doubt no longer resides with the accused."
 
Sep 18, 2010
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MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.
 
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sniper said:
Without the Russian hack the british press would still be writing fluff pieces about marginal gains and mastermind brailsford.
Fancybears did us a HUGE favour.
For the british press it's now about saving face.

Some exceptions of course. Lawton, stokes, kimmage, Daly, ed hood, and a couple of others were always going to be on the ball.



I wouldn't thank Fancy Bears too much given all the spyware they've put on your computers after visiting their site.
 
Sep 15, 2014
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sniper said:
Libertine Seguros said:
... And sad for Emma Pooley that after a career spent mainly being ignored, disowned or placed at the bottom of the priorities list by British Cycling, that now they're prepared to use her as an excuse to hide their suspicious activity behind.
I agree it's sad.
A minor caveat: I think Pooley was very much in with Brailsford and Sutton from 2008-2010-ish.
She also lost plenty of weight in that period, some would say suspiciously (ooc cortisone?).
Of course she was ditched after that. And it seems Brailsford forgot about that when he pulled this fairy tale out of his hat.

Or maybe, if you are correct in your assumption regarding Pooley and Brailsford/Sutton, they know that she can't spill the beans on them without implicating herself and I wouldn't put it past Brailsford to belive his own BS enough to think that that will fly.

This is of course speculation on my part.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Sorped said:
sniper said:
Libertine Seguros said:
... And sad for Emma Pooley that after a career spent mainly being ignored, disowned or placed at the bottom of the priorities list by British Cycling, that now they're prepared to use her as an excuse to hide their suspicious activity behind.
I agree it's sad.
A minor caveat: I think Pooley was very much in with Brailsford and Sutton from 2008-2010-ish.
She also lost plenty of weight in that period, some would say suspiciously (ooc cortisone?).
Of course she was ditched after that. And it seems Brailsford forgot about that when he pulled this fairy tale out of his hat.

Or maybe, if you are correct in your assumption regarding Pooley and Brailsford/Sutton, they know that she can't spill the beans on them without implicating herself and I wouldn't put it past Brailsford to belive his own BS enough to think that that will fly.

This is of course speculation on my part.
well yeah, for now all we can do is speculate.

Confronted with the Cope leak, Brailsford panicks, dives into his mind palace, and stumbles upon Pooley.
"Didn't she live in France somewhere? And she's retired anyway. Ow, and we have dirt on her. Perfect, she'll back us up."

Clutching at straws, but possible.
 
Re: Re:

Chaddy said:
sniper said:
Without the Russian hack the british press would still be writing fluff pieces about marginal gains and mastermind brailsford.
Fancybears did us a HUGE favour.
For the british press it's now about saving face.

Some exceptions of course. Lawton, stokes, kimmage, Daly, ed hood, and a couple of others were always going to be on the ball.



I wouldn't thank Fancy Bears too much given all the spyware they've put on your computers after visiting their site.


They are uncovering the wrongdoings of Sky, the abuse and manipulation of the TUE system and the ease at which these TUE's are given. Given, potentially, as covers. It's obvious that the leaks have sent some alarm bells through BC, Sky, WADA and the British media, which has no problem pointing fingers at other nations, is perhaps finally waking up to its own athletes being exposed as potential frauds. So yes, we should thank them, at least a little bit. I don't believe that these revelations are simply TUE's either, I think there is more at play there, but let's see what else comes out.
 
Re: Re:

Dalakhani said:
MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

I do but I don't make judgements without all of the information (would be interested to know if cope did meet Pooley that month for example), I didn't make a judgement about Armstrong until I read the USADA report and I will not make judgements here until people with access to more of the complete picture have evaluated that information and come to a decision.
 
May 26, 2010
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MatParker117 said:
Dalakhani said:
MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

I do but I don't make judgements without all of the information (would be interested to know if cope did meet Pooley that month for example), I didn't make a judgement about Armstrong until I read the USADA report and I will not make judgements here until people with access to more of the complete picture have evaluated that information and come to a decision.

Your defence of Sky/GB cycling shows you are on their side and are waiting for the so called good guys (WADA, UKAD, UCI) to catch the bad guys mid robbery. Well they are all bad guys and are doing the robbing in broad daylight.

There is enough evidence for people to make a sound judgement as to what is happening re Sky/Wiggins/UKAD/GB. Those who expect court like scenarios to arrive are living in a dream world.
 
So the latest development is that Sky are caught lying about THEMSELVES instigating the investigation. Lies, lies and more lies, where will this end. It will be interesting to hear what explanation Brailsford gives for nominating Pooleys name forward, I still can't get my head around the logic for using her to explain away the story. Wiggins, Brailsford, Froome and co, they are all mere actors in what is fast becoming a big soap opera. This latest mystery package just adds to the intrigue of what exactly they are hiding. Every week new questions arise and when the British public and casual cycling fans ( their target audience) are now asking questions of them, it could be difficult for them to continue to control the narrative.
 
Re: Re:

MatParker117 said:
Dalakhani said:
MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

I do but I don't make judgements without all of the information (would be interested to know if cope did meet Pooley that month for example), I didn't make a judgement about Armstrong until I read the USADA report and I will not make judgements here until people with access to more of the complete picture have evaluated that information and come to a decision.

Never mind whether Cope met Pooley that month, I'd be interested to know what was in the package and who it was destined for (given that we now know it wasn't Pooley). But Dave won't answer his calls again so the vacuum will be filled by more speculation and fact finding as to why there exists a reason to lie. Brailsford by acting suspiciously has got himself into a massive hole. I don't believe for one minute that he is the bumbling fool you appear to not want to rule out. It sounds like falling short of pictures of sky riders with a needle entering their buttock or full confessions, you are going to continue to give them the benefit of the doubt. Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
Re: Re:

ontheroad said:
MatParker117 said:
Dalakhani said:
MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

I do but I don't make judgements without all of the information (would be interested to know if cope did meet Pooley that month for example), I didn't make a judgement about Armstrong until I read the USADA report and I will not make judgements here until people with access to more of the complete picture have evaluated that information and come to a decision.

Never mind whether Cope met Pooley that month, I'd be interested to know what was in the package and who it was destined for (given that we now know it wasn't Pooley). But Dave won't answer his calls again so the vacuum will be filled by more speculation and fact finding as to why there exists a reason to lie. Brailsford by acting suspiciously has got himself into a massive hole. I don't believe for one minute that he is the bumbling fool you appear to not want to rule out. It sounds like falling short of pictures of sky riders with a needle entering their buttock or full confessions, you are going to continue to give them the benefit of the doubt. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Which like it or not they still deserve, we should not convict people without knowing all of the facts. I will not condemn Sky without evidence that implicates them beyond reasonable doubt, I am just not that kind of person. If the investigation turns up that evidence I will condemn them, but until then I will continue to give them that benefit.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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MatParker117 said:
...
Which like it or not they still deserve, we should not convict people without knowing all of the facts. I will not condemn Sky without evidence that implicates them beyond reasonable doubt, I am just not that kind of person. If the investigation turns up that evidence I will condemn them, but until then I will continue to give them that benefit.
we have facts.
they lied. multiple times.
you like liars?
if not, whence your continued efforts to apologize for them?
 
May 26, 2010
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MatParker117 said:
Which like it or not they still deserve, we should not convict people without knowing all of the facts. I will not condemn Sky without evidence that implicates them beyond reasonable doubt, I am just not that kind of person. If the investigation turns up that evidence I will condemn them, but until then I will continue to give them that benefit.


The investigation is run by their buddies at UKAD.

Please, if you are waiting for sports federations to do honest investigations you will be waiting a long time.

Maybe if a police force gets involved, but then we have seen how the Uk police force investigates sport, not very well.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Triamcinolone is a PED, which is why you need a TUE to use it. If you're talking about what was in the package, then at this point it's pure speculation, but the way that Brailsford and the others have behaved around it certainly hints that it's not fully sanguine. That most certainly is an allegation, but the TUEs - both Wiggins' and Froome's - are proof that Sky riders have been taking PEDs, just not an EPO-type positive smoking gun because, obviously, with the appropriate exemption those are not breaking the rules. We don't know if they have been breaking the rules, but we do know they've been using PEDs.

What we do know, however, is that all of those things we suspected were lies or at least times where the team used selective interpretation or economies with the truth in order to present themselves how they wished in the press are starting to bite them, as is the complex and sometimes muddled relationship between Team Sky and British Cycling. A lot of their PR has been shown to be nothing more than exactly that; the Zero Tolerance policy as we all know was as impermeable as a sieve (de Jongh, Leinders, Knaven, Rogers, Barry, Tiernan-Locke all getting past that, some even after the white sheet declaration of innocence document). The claims that they would withdraw riders who needed TUEs from races were shown to be clearly false after Froome was spotted supping from an inhaler in a race he subsequently won (thanks to an emergency TUE because he apparently would have been too ill to race otherwise, so clearly a powerful TUE that spells the difference between failure to even compete and dominant victory) and what we now know about Wiggins - again, so sick he needed a TUE for a very powerful substance, with which he was able to complete the most dominant Tour de France victory since 2004. The claims they would hold a fan Q&A session at the velodrome where people could ask the questions they had, and never took place in a format even remotely akin to what was suggested.

We've been asked to believe some quite unbelievable things by the Sky/BC team over the last few years. And in this I'm just talking about their PR and public statements, not their performances on the bikes - while some of those have been difficult to swallow, you can't lie about the actual on the day performance. And a lot of those things should now be brought back into the public eye and placed under scrutiny now that we have had it proven to us, quite unequivocally, that at least somebody in the team here is prepared, under investigation, to make easily disprovable lies under pressure. And the team's figurehead, Dave Brailsford, is either so naïve he doesn't question any story given to him, no matter how preposterous or demonstrably false, and goes public with it, or he's willing to do the heavy work of the lying too. Being asked to believe that Wiggins never made it back to the bus to receive the package from Cope when there's clear video evidence of Wiggins at the bus after the stage in question. Being asked to believe that Cope took a day trip through Switzerland and eastern France to meet Emma Pooley, who it can be easily shown was racing in a high profile event in a completely different country. It brings other statements into focus. Such as the reasons for hiring Geert Leinders or his role of weighing people, for example.

The Sky isn't falling at the time of writing, however. What we have discovered, however, is that Team Sky is just another team. Little of what they do is particularly revolutionary; they just know better than others where and how they can push it. They may be better in the sports science area than a lot of other teams, but with Froome not going in a wind tunnel for years and so on they're hardly the space-age science fiction supertech team they wanted to present. The tech is almost certainly a part of the team's success, but it's only a part. Race tactics have been predicated on a simple bludgeoning tactic, based on having the strongest rider in the race. It's why they've managed to nail stage racing, but the biggest one day races continue to mainly elude them (indeed can be limited to København 2011 and Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2016 in terms of the truly biggest, though Stannard and Thomas have won plenty of races like Omloop and E3).

What has happened, however, is that the tide has turned. The team has been caught on the back foot with these allegations and has, as has been the case in the past, struggled to get a coherent justification for it together that both fits with the facts and their stated aims. The difference here is that the spin was too blatant, too obvious, and too hastily put out there, and it's had the effect of exposing the team as lying, either among themselves, to the public, or both. Trust is eroded, especially from those who had been riding the gravy train and are now having to revise their positions and ask the difficult questions they were keen to avoid while the going was good. It seems quite a few people who had criticized those who doubted the transparent clothes as naysayers who didn't understand the science are beginning to come to the conclusion that the Emperor is, in fact, naked.

Triamcinolone isn't even banned outside of competition so please spare us the idea that this was a significant performance enhancer.
 
Sep 18, 2010
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MatParker117 said:
Dalakhani said:
MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

I do but I don't make judgements without all of the information

You're already making a judgement. You're watching cycling and judging that what you're seeing from Sky is clean... despite the lies. You're judging that, by lying about Pooley, they're not covering anything up.

That's a judgetment

This isn't a court of law. When wel watch cycling we have to decide whether what we're seeing is legit, or whether it's superior doping. (If, indeed we care if they're doping at all.)

(would be interested to know if cope did meet Pooley that month for example), I didn't make a judgement about Armstrong until I read the USADA report and I will not make judgements here until people with access to more of the complete picture have evaluated that information and come to a decision.

And who will those people be? Anti-doping didn't catch Armstrong, the feds did. And it wasn't anti-doping that learned about this package, it was the Daily Mail.

If we left things to anti-doping, dopers would have nothing to fear.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Cycle Chic said:
Brailsford has become a meglomaniac .. the article from Liberation newspaper during last years Tour slipped by us and it proves Brailsford has been slowly losing the plot.
The Libération article found and cited by CycleChic is about the possible use of transcranial stimulation in athletics. And although the piece is specifically about Brailsford and Team Sky, the article curiously appears in the 'Sciences' section of Libé, not in their 'Sports' section.

I also had no idea about this, until now.

David Brailsford, qui avait découvert la technologie en février 2015 lors d’une visite dans plusieurs entreprises high-tech à San Francisco, a lui-même essayé ce principe avec des électrodes pendant une partie de fléchettes.

"David Brailsford discovered this technology in February 2015, following a visit to several high-tech companies in San Francisco - and experimented with this principle himself, by wearing electrodes [on his skull] during a game of darts."

I see... well, I won't go into my own opinions about the neurology of motor-coordination in this context ..
It seems that Dave has "discovered" the transcranial method, in much the same way as Al Gore "invented the Internet".

So yes, this shows a willingness to try every kind of exotic, unfair-but-currently-legal, scheme for the pursuit of marginal gains. Far out...

Luigi

This jogged my brain, not sure if this link will work but in a nutshell. There was a documentary on UK tv this year outlining various performance enhancing techniques which were legal if a bit immoral and brain stimulation was one of them. Ignoring the review of the program itself two twins, one a fit keen cyclist one not did a stationary bike race with the non cyclist receiving brain stimulation. In short he wiped the floor with his keen cyclist twin. Anecdotal I know but at the time I watched it Team Sky came to mind.

Interested in your post as it seems Dave "clean" Brailsford was willing to give it a go.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/jul/20/horizon-sports-doping-review-like-cbbc-version-grown-up-documentary%3f0p19G=e?client=safari

I don't know if some further googling might turn up the documentary on catch up
 
Re: Re:

MatParker117 said:
Dalakhani said:
MatParker117 said:
until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

I do but I don't make judgements without all of the information (would be interested to know if cope did meet Pooley that month for example), I didn't make a judgement about Armstrong until I read the USADA report and I will not make judgements here until people with access to more of the complete picture have evaluated that information and come to a decision.

1. You are making a judgement. It already includes a lot of unsupported assumptions. Most critically: that a new clean era was ushered in post-Armstrong. Why do you not seek supporting evidence for that? The overwhelming proof - empirical and legal (including, but not limited to the report you mention) - is that doping was virtually universal in pro-cycling. What good and sufficient evidence do you have that the scale and nature of doping in pro-cycling suddenly changed once Armstrong got busted?

2. To suspend judgement about Armstrong during his reign - on the basis that there was no positive proof of doping - was to be extraordinarily naive and to demonstrate an obvious lack of knowledge about the role epo had been playing in the sport. We knew about epo! We knew it was been used universally. We knew it could transform sprinters into climbers (Jalabert) and one day riders into GT winners (Armstrong). It wasn't speculative, it was knowledge. You're claiming your lack of knowledge as a virtue.