Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

That does not really have a lot to do with it, i suspect that clenbuterol is banned in and out of competition because it's simply not approved as a human medicine in most countries.

It's a PED and a good one. It's got excellent recovery and weight loss features in a relatively safe drug as long as you don't take too much. Even then, the worst side effect seems to be jitters.

The Contador thread covers Clen in great detail.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Triamcinolone isn't even banned outside of competition so please spare us the idea that this was a significant performance enhancer.

Which is totally contrary to the views of former dopers who have witnessed at first hand its effects:

David Millar
“As I said in my book, I took EPO and testosterone patches, and they obviously produce huge differences… Kenacort [triamcinolone], though, was the only one you took and three days later you looked different,” Millar told The Telegraph last week.

“You would do all the training but my weight would stick. But if I took Kenacort, 1.5-2kgs would drop off in like a week. And not only would the weight drop off, I would feel stronger.”

“No, that’s cheating?” Dumoulin said when asked if he would consider applying for such a TUE.


Joerg Jaksche

TUE or not, he is clear that there is a big boost from injections of Triamcinolone acetonide.

“I would say it is a very big performance improver. It reduces weight, it increases your recovery and it is a very strong painkiller. From my experience, I would say that it is probably a three to five percent performance improvement.

“It is not marginal,” Jaksche adds, with a laugh.

I'll take the view of WADA and their medical experts over the likes of Joerg Jaksche and David Millar if that's ok with you. I also like how David Millar, whose views and opinions are normally treated with utter contempt on here, suddenly becomes somebody worth listening to the second he says something that fits your argument.

You guys are too funny.

And why do you not countenance the views of the MPCC? They have medical experts, a deep knowledge of cycling -including knowledge of how WADA regulations have been intentionally exploited - and a explicit agenda to promote clean cycling.

I would like to hear why you exclude their statements on this matter.

And also: why you think Sky decided not to join them.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

I'll take the view of WADA and their medical experts over the likes of Joerg Jaksche and David Millar if that's ok with you. I also like how David Millar, whose views and opinions are normally treated with utter contempt on here, suddenly becomes somebody worth listening to the second he says something that fits your argument.

You guys are too funny.

The same WADA that has been shown to repeatedly protect Russia from doping controversy? That one?

What about that UKAD who has no public reporting, at all? The same one that wouldn't pursue claims of a doping doctor in-country. The UKAD containing the Russian doping controversy. That one. Yeah, trustworthy!

 

[heart_attack_man]

Re: Re:

Triamcinolone isn't even banned outside of competition so please spare us the idea that this was a significant performance enhancer.

Which is totally contrary to the views of former dopers who have witnessed at first hand its effects:

David Millar
“As I said in my book, I took EPO and testosterone patches, and they obviously produce huge differences… Kenacort [triamcinolone], though, was the only one you took and three days later you looked different,” Millar told The Telegraph last week.

“You would do all the training but my weight would stick. But if I took Kenacort, 1.5-2kgs would drop off in like a week. And not only would the weight drop off, I would feel stronger.”

“No, that’s cheating?” Dumoulin said when asked if he would consider applying for such a TUE.


Joerg Jaksche

TUE or not, he is clear that there is a big boost from injections of Triamcinolone acetonide.

“I would say it is a very big performance improver. It reduces weight, it increases your recovery and it is a very strong painkiller. From my experience, I would say that it is probably a three to five percent performance improvement.

“It is not marginal,” Jaksche adds, with a laugh.

I'll take the view of WADA and their medical experts over the likes of Joerg Jaksche and David Millar if that's ok with you. I also like how David Millar, whose views and opinions are normally treated with utter contempt on here, suddenly becomes somebody worth listening to the second he says something that fits your argument.

You guys are too funny.

You really are cute. I'm glad that you hold WADA in such high regard with their Anti-doping efforts. That really tends to work out well. Next thing you'll be telling me that the IOC and FIFA are shining examples of sports ethics...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

How long does that give protection from an AAF for? A day, a week, the whole race??

Seriously, has this been answered?

Based on fancy bears documents, it depends on the TUE request. I don't think we know what the athlete/doctor requests vs. what was approved. We do know some drugs are approved for long periods and others are not.

I'll take a look at the docs if I have some time.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

That does not really have a lot to do with it, i suspect that clenbuterol is banned in and out of competition because it's simply not approved as a human medicine in most countries.

It's a PED and a good one. It's got excellent recovery and weight loss features in a relatively safe drug as long as you don't take too much. Even then, the worst side effect seems to be jitters.

The Contador thread covers Clen in great detail.

I know, i was just giving my opinion on why it's completely banned, i think that the reasoning of WADA on this one didn't need to go much further than "It's not approved for medical use in most countries apart for veterinary medicine" By that i mean that if it was generally approved, it might be allowed in inhaler form for asthma, like salbutamol.
Cortico can be good PED too but they appear to be more "hit or miss", some people might end bloated, some people might have a huge boost from them.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

I know, i was just giving my opinion on why it's completely banned, i think that the reasoning of WADA on this one didn't need to go much further than "It's not approved for medical use in most countries apart for veterinary medicine" By that i mean that if it was generally approved, it might be allowed in inhaler form for asthma, like salbutamol.
Cortico can be good PED too but they appear to be more "hit or miss", some people might end bloated, some people might have a huge boost from them.

The closer one follows what WADA does/doesn't ban the more random it is. Clenbuterol is an easy one because it doesn't occur naturally in the body so it's easy to test and there are safer alternatives at least in the West.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

I'll take the view of WADA and their medical experts over the likes of Joerg Jaksche and David Millar if that's ok with you. I also like how David Millar, whose views and opinions are normally treated with utter contempt on here, suddenly becomes somebody worth listening to the second he says something that fits your argument.

You guys are too funny.

The same WADA that has been shown to repeatedly protect Russia from doping controversy? That one?

What about that UKAD who has no public reporting, at all? The same one that wouldn't pursue claims of a doping doctor in-country. The UKAD containing the Russian doping controversy. That one. Yeah, trustworthy!

Really? They were calling for sanctions and eventual ban on all Russian athletes to Rio 2016 and beyond, at the behest of the Americans. That move was purely political. It fell in line with what's happened between Russia and America, politically and economically over the past 3 years or so. I am not defending Russians who dope, but reports and requests calling for an entire nation to be banned have massive political overtones in them.

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cope-i-dont-know-what-was-in-the-package-for-team-sky/
"Cope suggested that the facts had been 'misconstrued' and added that he had been at other races that year, such as Liège-Bastogne-Liège, where he had watched the men's and women's* races and met with Nicole Cooke."

"*There was no women's race at Liège in 2011. Cyclingnews is attempting to clarify with Cope about which race he might have attended."

Diggin' himself in deeper in his own hole. :sad:

""It was nothing to do with Brad," he said. "I gave it to Richard Freeman. This parcel was asked for, for Richard Freeman. It could have been nasal strips or bandaids, I really don't know.""
Bandaids? He would fly and drive across Europe with bandaids? Don't they have bandaids in France?

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

until then Sky are entitled to a presumption of innocence from my viewpoint. This is still an allegation not proof of wrongdoing

Imagine you were a member of a jury, and the accused's alibi was proven to be a lie - that he was 600 miles away from where he claimed to be - wouldn't you think that's suspicious?

What we have here is Sky, rather than telling the truth, making a false accusation against another rider. And we know it's false because there's cast iron evidence Pooley was 600 miles away in another country.

So the question is why did they lie? And the answer is clearly because they don't want us to know the truth. Why not? Because the truth would be damning.

Again, the fact that it could be proven so quickly that Pooley was 600 miles away in another country strongly suggests that explanation wasn't intended to be a lie and was merely a misunderstanding/incompetence. The conspiracy theorist needs it to be a lie but the far more logical explanation is that it wasn't.

It's interesting to be able to spin a blatant lie as a good sign... "The fact that they could not put up a good lie is proof that they didn't really intend to lie"

There is nothing to suggest this was an attempt to knowingly deceive the journalist in question. Can we agree that if it was, then it was probably one of the most stupid attempts at lying that you could possibly imagine?

People are pretending that the idea of Cope travelling to see Pooley is totally ludicrous. He was her coach for goodness sake!

Really ? From his CN interview it sounds more like he was not much more than the teaboy. He drove Dowsett to a race and said hello to Nicole Cooke

"I think that got misconstrued with me being the women's coach. That was part of my role as such. I was women's coach in title, but I didn't actually have a role in 2011 and I did a hell of a lot of work for Sky. No one is questioning me going to the end of Liège-Bastogne-Liège are they?" Err, well they are now

 

[orbeas]

There was no ladies Liege race in 2011 !!

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1982047#p1982047

This post I made in July will make more sense in light of recent events.

I got flamed for it by Benotti69.

Sometimes the benefit of hindsight makes things clearer. ;-)

Your comments surrounding these Wiggins TUE's does nothing to help the situation in cycling. Can I ask how you were able to conclude that they were unethical without actually seeing the individual's medical information? If anything was unethical it was you and others questioning the legitimacy of someone's medical treatment after an illegal hack of their data. It's absolutely appalling behaviour. I can understand a pretty simple man like Nico Roche making that mistake but you should have known much better.

I have not stated unequivocally that they were unethical. I stated that the timing, the chosen substance, the TUE application based on previous year's medical details and other points are highly suspicious and questionable.

Perhaps the question you should ask yourself is this: If the questioning is a mistake (as you purport), why has it lead to UKAD initiating an investigation? Why have leading medical experts expressed the same opinion that I have? Why has the former head of WADA expressed the same opinion? You seem to intimate that I am somehow a rogue clinician / scientist expressing an unsound and biased opinion. You are utterly mistaken on this.

With respect to the post which you replied to. That post was made in July before any leaks occurred. It came at a time when I was lambasted here for being a "Sky fan boy". It's relevance is that I had an educated guess that we might see exactly this scenario playing out. And reposting it was simply pointing out that this is indeed what has happened.

Please don't expect continued engagement on this.

 

[sniper]

Well, in December 2015 in a podcast with Ross Tucker you did say there's "absolutely nothing" on Team Sky, when in fact there was already a whole lot on Team Sky. We knew about:

- Lies and halftruths
- (very) dodgy staff
- dodgy transformations
- diseases
- conflicts of interest with the governing body.

Those are all the traditional ingredients of a traditional doping team and they were already known to us by then. So for you to say there was "absolutely nothing" on Team Sky (and also defend David Walsh in the process), that didn't look 100% objective at the time.

I think you've been much more objective and realistic in the past couple of weeks, for which kudos.

 

[ontheroad]

That Cope interview is just another one to add to the long list of Sky/BC main players trying to insult the intelligence of the public with their ludicrous statements.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1982047#p1982047

This post I made in July will make more sense in light of recent events.

I got flamed for it by Benotti69.

Sometimes the benefit of hindsight makes things clearer. ;-)

Your comments surrounding these Wiggins TUE's does nothing to help the situation in cycling. Can I ask how you were able to conclude that they were unethical without actually seeing the individual's medical information? If anything was unethical it was you and others questioning the legitimacy of someone's medical treatment after an illegal hack of their data. It's absolutely appalling behaviour. I can understand a pretty simple man like Nico Roche making that mistake but you should have known much better.

I have not stated unequivocally that they were unethical. I stated that the timing, the chosen substance, the TUE application based on previous year's medical details and other points are highly suspicious and questionable.

Perhaps the question you should ask yourself is this: If the questioning is a mistake (as you purport), why has it lead to UKAD initiating an investigation? Why have leading medical experts expressed the same opinion that I have? Why has the former head of WADA expressed the same opinion? You seem to intimate that I am somehow a rogue clinician / scientist expressing an unsound and biased opinion. You are utterly mistaken on this.

With respect to the post which you replied to. That post was made in July before any leaks occurred. It came at a time when I was lambasted here for being a "Sky fan boy". It's relevance is that I had an educated guess that we might see exactly this scenario playing out. And reposting it was simply pointing out that this is indeed what has happened.

Please don't expect continued engagement on this.

I stated that yourself and others have questioned the legitimacy of someone's medical treatment after an illegal hack of their data despite not being in possession of that individual's medical information. You're justifying that because someone has subsequently raised concerns to UKAD about a medical package? Are you serious? Frankly in this context, who cares about any potential anti-doping violation. It's not important.

 

[Benotti69]

JRanton has to be paid to post this stuff!

Insulting Nico Roche by calling him a 'simple man'. If this guy is not paid to write this stuff, then he's an intern....

Unreal trying to defend the indefensible!

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1982047#p1982047

This post I made in July will make more sense in light of recent events.

I got flamed for it by Benotti69.

Sometimes the benefit of hindsight makes things clearer. ;-)

Your comments surrounding these Wiggins TUE's does nothing to help the situation in cycling. Can I ask how you were able to conclude that they were unethical without actually seeing the individual's medical information? If anything was unethical it was you and others questioning the legitimacy of someone's medical treatment after an illegal hack of their data. It's absolutely appalling behaviour. I can understand a pretty simple man like Nico Roche making that mistake but you should have known much better.

I have not stated unequivocally that they were unethical. I stated that the timing, the chosen substance, the TUE application based on previous year's medical details and other points are highly suspicious and questionable.

Perhaps the question you should ask yourself is this: If the questioning is a mistake (as you purport), why has it lead to UKAD initiating an investigation? Why have leading medical experts expressed the same opinion that I have? Why has the former head of WADA expressed the same opinion? You seem to intimate that I am somehow a rogue clinician / scientist expressing an unsound and biased opinion. You are utterly mistaken on this.

With respect to the post which you replied to. That post was made in July before any leaks occurred. It came at a time when I was lambasted here for being a "Sky fan boy". It's relevance is that I had an educated guess that we might see exactly this scenario playing out. And reposting it was simply pointing out that this is indeed what has happened.

Please don't expect continued engagement on this.

I stated that yourself and others have questioned the legitimacy of someone's medical treatment after an illegal hack of their data despite not being in possession of that individual's medical information. You're justifying that because someone has subsequently raised concerns to UKAD about a medical package? Are you serious? Frankly in this context, who cares about any potential anti-doping violation. It's not important.

Is that you Dave?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

Really? They were calling for sanctions and eventual ban on all Russian athletes to Rio 2016 and beyond, at the behest of the Americans. That move was purely political. It fell in line with what's happened between Russia and America, politically and economically over the past 3 years or so. I am not defending Russians who dope, but reports and requests calling for an entire nation to be banned have massive political overtones in them.

It's nice that they at least talked about supporting a ban. But, they have no authority and they know it.

The biggest issue for me is there is no transparency into UKAD's activities. None! So, they can be as corrupted as Reedie or Coe and there's no way to know. The lack of transparency and the IOC's record of corruption are a bad combination.

Maybe they are actually operating with integrity. There's just no way to know.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Really? They were calling for sanctions and eventual ban on all Russian athletes to Rio 2016 and beyond, at the behest of the Americans. That move was purely political. It fell in line with what's happened between Russia and America, politically and economically over the past 3 years or so. I am not defending Russians who dope, but reports and requests calling for an entire nation to be banned have massive political overtones in them.

It's nice that they at least talked about supporting a ban. But, they have no authority and they know it.

The biggest issue for me is there is no transparency into UKAD's activities. None! So, they can be as corrupted as Reedie or Coe and there's no way to know. The lack of transparency and the IOC's record of corruption are a bad combination.

Maybe they are actually operating with integrity. There's just no way to know.

That's the point, they don't have the authority because that's not their job. There are others who's job is to do exactly that, and they chose not to, rightly so. Banning entire federations is political to say the least. I mean, look at who 'donated' the most to WADA. Shades of Armstrong 'donating' to the UCI 'for testing for PED's and the general fight for anti-doping!'

 

[sniper]

I reckon that with verroken the last bit of integrity went gone.

 

[MatParker117]

Re:

There was no ladies Liege race in 2011 !!

Nicole Cooke had ridden the Fleche Femme four days prior, it's perfectly possible that they met up prior to Liege that year as Cope was working for Sky.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

I know, i was just giving my opinion on why it's completely banned, i think that the reasoning of WADA on this one didn't need to go much further than "It's not approved for medical use in most countries apart for veterinary medicine" By that i mean that if it was generally approved, it might be allowed in inhaler form for asthma, like salbutamol.
Cortico can be good PED too but they appear to be more "hit or miss", some people might end bloated, some people might have a huge boost from them.

The closer one follows what WADA does/doesn't ban the more random it is. Clenbuterol is an easy one because it doesn't occur naturally in the body so it's easy to test and there are safer alternatives at least in the West.

I'm sorry i don't understand what you mean here, english isn't my first language so it's probably my fault
Tbf even if it was a common medication in the west i don't think clenbuterol would be allowed, it seems to be very potent at increasing basal metabolism, no wonder it's a wonder drug for weight loss.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

There was no ladies Liege race in 2011 !!

Nicole Cooke had ridden the Fleche Femme four days prior, it's perfectly possible that they met up prior to Liege that year as Cope was working for Sky.

Ding dong - another conspiracy theory called in to question. Well done Mat!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

There was no ladies Liege race in 2011 !!

Nicole Cooke had ridden the Fleche Femme four days prior, it's perfectly possible that they met up prior to Liege that year as Cope was working for Sky.

Ding dong - another conspiracy theory called in to question. Well done Mat!

More obfuscation from Spud!

You make it look like Sky never lied, yet all they have done is lie!

No conspiracy here when the team has been caught lying umpteen times. Their lack of transparency from day 1 has been the opposite of everything Brailsford promised.

So funny, i really thought after Armstrong the comedy element from fans would never get to those levels. Sky fans have bettered it.

The team of minute detail cant even get race dates right and riders in places they say they were right, yet they were going to be the team of minute detail. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

PUHLEASE, one does need a tin foil hat for their dog to see the Sky BS!

Bandaids or pedals :lol: :lol:

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

There was no ladies Liege race in 2011 !!

Nicole Cooke had ridden the Fleche Femme four days prior, it's perfectly possible that they met up prior to Liege that year as Cope was working for Sky.

Ding dong - another conspiracy theory called in to question. Well done Mat!

More obfuscation from Spud!

You make it look like Sky never lied, yet all they have done is lie!

No conspiracy here when the team has been caught lying umpteen times. Their lack of transparency from day 1 has been the opposite of everything Brailsford promised.

So funny, i really thought after Armstrong the comedy element from fans would never get to those levels. Sky fans have bettered it.

The team of minute detail cant even get race dates right and riders in places they say they were right, yet they were going to be the team of minute detail. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

PUHLEASE, one does need a tin foil hat for their dog to see the Sky BS!

Bandaids or pedals :lol: :lol:

indeed...it's only a women's race after all...who cares about details...especially when you want to be a DS

job on Trump's team for Cope...