- Mar 13, 2009
- 16,853
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Re: Re:
It was my opinion, that even 'legal' paracetamol, 30 is ILLEGAL. But Martin Hardie told me it was not illegal(that it was legal) wrt the Essendon(Australian football club scandal). Then you have the Zeno's paradox, is 1 legal, 2 not legal, or, is it 4 legal, and 5 not legal, where does this legal-not_legal line exist?
ofcourse, this presumes WADA and anti-doping was coherent. So, it is kinda felicitous this Zeno's paradox regulation exising within WADA, because they would never prosecute/sanction it. The most expedient of expedient bureaucratic organisations.
TheSpud said:
It was my opinion, that even 'legal' paracetamol, 30 is ILLEGAL. But Martin Hardie told me it was not illegal(that it was legal) wrt the Essendon(Australian football club scandal). Then you have the Zeno's paradox, is 1 legal, 2 not legal, or, is it 4 legal, and 5 not legal, where does this legal-not_legal line exist?
ofcourse, this presumes WADA and anti-doping was coherent. So, it is kinda felicitous this Zeno's paradox regulation exising within WADA, because they would never prosecute/sanction it. The most expedient of expedient bureaucratic organisations.
Re: Sky
TdF 2015:
Intimidation techniques deeply rooted at BC/Sky.
TdF 2015:
Reminded me amongst other things of SDB yelling down a journalist who asked why they didn't measure Froome's vo2max.ciranda said:
Intimidation techniques deeply rooted at BC/Sky.
Re: Sky
On Syed... glad I'm not British, as the whole "Sir" grates me (not the fault of Dave Brailsford of course!)
That said, Syed really goes on a roll there, you'd think DB is the smartest renaissance man in the world
And that's the state of the media... imgine being 12 and looking at your heroes perform. You'd eat this as candy.
Uhm what? Of course they can and will deny it. it wil have hardly any consequences outside theis echo-chamber.The Hitch said:
On Syed... glad I'm not British, as the whole "Sir" grates me (not the fault of Dave Brailsford of course!)
That said, Syed really goes on a roll there, you'd think DB is the smartest renaissance man in the world
And that's the state of the media... imgine being 12 and looking at your heroes perform. You'd eat this as candy.
cheers Zalacain, well spotted.
Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.
Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.
- Aug 10, 2010
- 6,285
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- 17,485
Re:
Roll is utterly untrustworthy.
sniper said:cheers Zalacain, well spotted.
Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.
Roll is utterly untrustworthy.
Re:
Bobke is having quite the chuckle. That is true comedy gold!
sniper said:cheers Zalacain, well spotted.
Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.
Bobke is having quite the chuckle. That is true comedy gold!
Re: Re:
Give him some credit. He tweeted this yesterday!:
'Encouraged by energy of many young clinicians. They are keen to change culture, to innovate, and recognise importance of learning from error.'
Irondan said:Interestingly enough, he mentioned nothing of rounder wheels and fluffier pillows.Electress said:
:lol: Dave B. introduced cleaning of the hands with (wait for it)... Hand gel! That had never been done before Dave Brailsford started the marginal gains program at Sky. :lol:
What a tool...
Give him some credit. He tweeted this yesterday!:
'Encouraged by energy of many young clinicians. They are keen to change culture, to innovate, and recognise importance of learning from error.'
Re: Sky
Franklin what does the bolded part mean, the kids eating it as candy? Just curious.
Do you mean kids will be influenced by these lies and have false impressions of the sport?
If so, I think that's a really important point.
Syed, Moore, Fotheringham et al should be banned from ever writing or talking anything about cycling ever again.
Franklin said:Uhm what? Of course they can and will deny it. it wil have hardly any consequences outside theis echo-chamber.The Hitch said:
On Syed... glad I'm not British, as the whole "Sir" grates me (not the fault of Dave Brailsford of course!)
That said, Syed really goes on a roll there, you'd think DB is the smartest renaissance man in the world
And that's the state of the media... imgine being 12 and looking at your heroes perform. You'd eat this as candy.
Franklin what does the bolded part mean, the kids eating it as candy? Just curious.
Do you mean kids will be influenced by these lies and have false impressions of the sport?
If so, I think that's a really important point.
Syed, Moore, Fotheringham et al should be banned from ever writing or talking anything about cycling ever again.
- May 26, 2010
- 28,143
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Re: Re:
Read the CIRC.
Also read LA Confidential where Ballestre goes into the medicinal cabinets of teams in 2000 and 2001
The drugs manifest of one team from the 2000 Tour. One hundred twenty-six products. Six hundred and eighty-four individual packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to seven thousand four hundred and twenty-two individual doses. The 2001 manifest for the same team, which the authors also procured, covered one hundred and nineteen different products. Seven hundred and ninety packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to eight thousand, three hundred and thirty-four doses. This is for a team of nine riders in a twenty-one day race. Do the math on the daily doses yourself.
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/3/16/2054131/the-shadow-of-the-syringe
TheSpud said:
Read the CIRC.
Also read LA Confidential where Ballestre goes into the medicinal cabinets of teams in 2000 and 2001
The drugs manifest of one team from the 2000 Tour. One hundred twenty-six products. Six hundred and eighty-four individual packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to seven thousand four hundred and twenty-two individual doses. The 2001 manifest for the same team, which the authors also procured, covered one hundred and nineteen different products. Seven hundred and ninety packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to eight thousand, three hundred and thirty-four doses. This is for a team of nine riders in a twenty-one day race. Do the math on the daily doses yourself.
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/3/16/2054131/the-shadow-of-the-syringe
- Mar 13, 2009
- 16,853
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Re: Re:
I just wrote about Syed getting a first at Oxford.
What about these MDs.
Has no one ever studied epidemiology or looked at how they will potential overburden the endocrine jabbing people with so many things...
King Boonen, interested in your opinion again, because you rightfully correct my ignorance on science matters, even tho you appreciate where I am coming from it as a lay person.
But, serious again. All of these jabs of declinging marginal utility, certainly there would be a question, about a threshold of negative economy.
Edita Rumsas did it in the back of a camper, presumably just some testo and cortisone and EPO. I would think if you seek to cover the spectrum of potential PEDs, you will reach a threshold pretty darn quick, where you get into potential PED negative economy, pretty soon, and not even equating for 'risk'.
I thought the 'more = better' ethic, was for punters at a music festival, or a dance festival, in Manchester, in a shell suit, or not in a shellsuit.
Syed and doctors can well be idiots with a putative edumacation[sic]
Benotti69 said:
I just wrote about Syed getting a first at Oxford.
What about these MDs.
Has no one ever studied epidemiology or looked at how they will potential overburden the endocrine jabbing people with so many things...
King Boonen, interested in your opinion again, because you rightfully correct my ignorance on science matters, even tho you appreciate where I am coming from it as a lay person.
But, serious again. All of these jabs of declinging marginal utility, certainly there would be a question, about a threshold of negative economy.
Edita Rumsas did it in the back of a camper, presumably just some testo and cortisone and EPO. I would think if you seek to cover the spectrum of potential PEDs, you will reach a threshold pretty darn quick, where you get into potential PED negative economy, pretty soon, and not even equating for 'risk'.
I thought the 'more = better' ethic, was for punters at a music festival, or a dance festival, in Manchester, in a shell suit, or not in a shellsuit.
Syed and doctors can well be idiots with a putative edumacation[sic]
- Mar 13, 2009
- 16,853
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Re: Re:
my point stands, lets forget about consultant specialist docs, baloil firsts,
but more=better only is for intelligence mindset of a recreational drug party goer.
i am asking, where the heck is the diseconomy.
If we are talking with Dan2016 about legalising... Ferrari could have done the whole PED doping niche a major aid, but discussing this theory, of diseconomy or negative economy. Where gains are. Where risks are.
Benotti69 said:
my point stands, lets forget about consultant specialist docs, baloil firsts,
but more=better only is for intelligence mindset of a recreational drug party goer.
i am asking, where the heck is the diseconomy.
If we are talking with Dan2016 about legalising... Ferrari could have done the whole PED doping niche a major aid, but discussing this theory, of diseconomy or negative economy. Where gains are. Where risks are.
Re: Re:
Good points regarding more = better.
There was a chapter in Robert Millar's autobiography about a French (I think) doctor at the time who was promoting legalising doping. Few years since I read it, memory a bit vague, but I think the doc wrote a book or maybe a paper on this subject. I always meant to track it down but never did.
The basic premise, as you're saying blackcat, is that riders were taking far more than they actually needed for any performance gains. He preceded Ferrari in his 'no more harmful than drinking excessive amounts of orange juice' argument (which was unfortunately caricatured and ridiculed).
These guys know their peanuts, or potatoes, or lamas, whatever the expression is. They should be listened to.
One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.
blackcat said:
Good points regarding more = better.
There was a chapter in Robert Millar's autobiography about a French (I think) doctor at the time who was promoting legalising doping. Few years since I read it, memory a bit vague, but I think the doc wrote a book or maybe a paper on this subject. I always meant to track it down but never did.
The basic premise, as you're saying blackcat, is that riders were taking far more than they actually needed for any performance gains. He preceded Ferrari in his 'no more harmful than drinking excessive amounts of orange juice' argument (which was unfortunately caricatured and ridiculed).
These guys know their peanuts, or potatoes, or lamas, whatever the expression is. They should be listened to.
One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.
Re: Re:
The thing with legalizing doping is that you'd still have to have limits, otherwise you would quickly be in an arms race without limit and someone would end up dead. No sport could condone a situation where it was effectively legal to risk serious harm and even death without sanction or mitigating risk.
As soon as you have a limit, you'll have people cheat the limit to gain advantage. And so you go back to where you started from - trying to detect cheats.
Dan2016 said:
The thing with legalizing doping is that you'd still have to have limits, otherwise you would quickly be in an arms race without limit and someone would end up dead. No sport could condone a situation where it was effectively legal to risk serious harm and even death without sanction or mitigating risk.
As soon as you have a limit, you'll have people cheat the limit to gain advantage. And so you go back to where you started from - trying to detect cheats.
- Mar 13, 2009
- 16,853
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Re: Re:
the fallacy here, is not recognising the gap, the separation between having people on comprehensive doping program, versus a clean athlete, rule of thumb, FTP 20%.
the gap between legalized doping program, and potential individuals over and above, would be significantly less than 1%.
This has not been presented with adequate coherence.
Electress said:
the fallacy here, is not recognising the gap, the separation between having people on comprehensive doping program, versus a clean athlete, rule of thumb, FTP 20%.
the gap between legalized doping program, and potential individuals over and above, would be significantly less than 1%.
This has not been presented with adequate coherence.
- May 17, 2013
- 7,557
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Re: Sky
I agree with the above.
Since the first stone throwing contest a million years ago, contestants have tried to get an edge, stepping over the line, replacing the stone with a lighter one, whatever...
Cheating is one of the byproducts of homo sapiens.
Allowing doping, to me, is giving up the fight. And who's the next generation of riders? Who will put their kids through guinea pig experiments, so they can become champions...and it will start early. People will die and cycling will die. Or be a freak show like bodybuilding, marginal...not a major sport.
Advocating for legal doping is, when you dig a little, surrendering. Giving away your integrity. Since when is it OK to cheat at anything? Shouldn't we educate our kids better instead, so they refuse to cheat, do the right thing, and expose the cheaters?
The bottom line is: if you have asthma, ride for fun. If you have any condition, ride for fun. If you suffer from allergies? Don't race in the spring. If you are lucky to have the genetics, no medical conditions, you train hard and have the will to suffer more than your opponents, good for you.
That so many contribute in this forum clearly demonstrates that the fight is not over. But the good guys will prevail.
I agree with the above.
Since the first stone throwing contest a million years ago, contestants have tried to get an edge, stepping over the line, replacing the stone with a lighter one, whatever...
Cheating is one of the byproducts of homo sapiens.
Allowing doping, to me, is giving up the fight. And who's the next generation of riders? Who will put their kids through guinea pig experiments, so they can become champions...and it will start early. People will die and cycling will die. Or be a freak show like bodybuilding, marginal...not a major sport.
Advocating for legal doping is, when you dig a little, surrendering. Giving away your integrity. Since when is it OK to cheat at anything? Shouldn't we educate our kids better instead, so they refuse to cheat, do the right thing, and expose the cheaters?
The bottom line is: if you have asthma, ride for fun. If you have any condition, ride for fun. If you suffer from allergies? Don't race in the spring. If you are lucky to have the genetics, no medical conditions, you train hard and have the will to suffer more than your opponents, good for you.
That so many contribute in this forum clearly demonstrates that the fight is not over. But the good guys will prevail.
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