Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

IMHO

Current state of Pro Cycling at Team SKY......and others

Low Octane
Kenacourt- Great to train on. No TUE needed. Burns Mucho Fat. Recovery aid........Race on as well TUE needed
Viagra- Perfect for a Mountain stage. It acts as a Vaso Dilator. Last 3-4 ours. Dilates ALL Blood Vessels. Not just the 'custard'.
Tramadol; Low dose finishing bottle. Dulls the pain. Would work great when used with the top ^ 2.
Cortico cream due to skin rash?

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? Makes a difference. You can take 6 ibuprofens a day if you want (or 12 on prescription) as well as 8 paracetamol. So that's 14 quite easily ...




High Octane
Altitude Camp. Skews Passport so EPO possible.
OR go to SA to train with a buddy. Micro dose

CIRC report had riders taking up to 30 tablets a day during GTs. If that was only Viagra and Tramadol it would be strange.

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? You can take 8 paracetamol and 6 ibuprofen a day without prescription. Add in some vitamins, CLA and L-Carnitine and you could be near 20 already.

I don't dispute what is said - it just needs context.

Sorry - looks like my earlier reply was in there but in the middle of an old post. Not sure what happened there.

 

[Huapango]

Re:

lipotropin, AICAR, GW, IGF-II, testo, slin, hgh, CJC, autologous transfusions, russian epo, any number of cortisone family

just some

...and those are just the "back-up" plan in case the motor battery dies.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

This - although amusing - has the whiff of barrel-scraping.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4295230/Team-Sky-tried-sex-pill-Viagra-search-advantage.html

You need to see this in a wider context - Read about Salazar's program and you will get inside the mind of athletes - It's all about taking a mixture of legal supplements to improve performance, and at times you may cross the line in both legal and ethical terms

I meant that the Mail was barrel scraping, not the athletes. I'm quite capable of seeing the wider context, thanks.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

IMHO

Current state of Pro Cycling at Team SKY......and others

Low Octane
Kenacourt- Great to train on. No TUE needed. Burns Mucho Fat. Recovery aid........Race on as well TUE needed
Viagra- Perfect for a Mountain stage. It acts as a Vaso Dilator. Last 3-4 ours. Dilates ALL Blood Vessels. Not just the 'custard'.
Tramadol; Low dose finishing bottle. Dulls the pain. Would work great when used with the top ^ 2.
Cortico cream due to skin rash?

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? Makes a difference. You can take 6 ibuprofens a day if you want (or 12 on prescription) as well as 8 paracetamol. So that's 14 quite easily ...




High Octane
Altitude Camp. Skews Passport so EPO possible.
OR go to SA to train with a buddy. Micro dose

CIRC report had riders taking up to 30 tablets a day during GTs. If that was only Viagra and Tramadol it would be strange.

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? You can take 8 paracetamol and 6 ibuprofen a day without prescription. Add in some vitamins, CLA and L-Carnitine and you could be near 20 already.

I don't dispute what is said - it just needs context.

It was my opinion, that even 'legal' paracetamol, 30 is ILLEGAL. But Martin Hardie told me it was not illegal(that it was legal) wrt the Essendon(Australian football club scandal). Then you have the Zeno's paradox, is 1 legal, 2 not legal, or, is it 4 legal, and 5 not legal, where does this legal-not_legal line exist?

ofcourse, this presumes WADA and anti-doping was coherent. So, it is kinda felicitous this Zeno's paradox regulation exising within WADA, because they would never prosecute/sanction it. The most expedient of expedient bureaucratic organisations.

 

[sniper]

Re: Sky

TdF 2015:

Fun times outside Sky bus before start of the stage (from http://www.bt.dk/cykling/sky-rytter-angreb-kyllingen-under-interview-du-er-en-skamplet-rasmussen).

Rasmussen was there as commentator for a newspaper. While surrounded by the press corps Peter Kennaugh approached him and asked about Michael's comment on twitter about Geraint Thomas that said 'track cyclist Geraint Thomas catches climber Nairo Quintana!'.

Rasmussen answered Kennaugh that he was merely impressed with Thomas.

'You have to be careful. People read things like that', Kennaugh said.

'Yes I know but people can believe what they want', Rasmussen.

'So is that what you think´ said Kennaugh (he thought Rasmussen implied doping use).

'I just said that I find it very impressive. I have climbed in the mountains myself', Rasmussen.

'Yes, but you were high (?) on something. You are a disgrace. A disgrace!', Kennaugh said and left.

Reminded me amongst other things of SDB yelling down a journalist who asked why they didn't measure Froome's vo2max.

Intimidation techniques deeply rooted at BC/Sky.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Sky

If Sky fall, people like this HAVE to be taken to account.

It can't be like with Armstrong that the biggest scumbags of all - Ligget, Kirby etc, got to pretend they weren't part of it

Uhm what? Of course they can and will deny it. it wil have hardly any consequences outside theis echo-chamber.

On Syed... glad I'm not British, as the whole "Sir" grates me (not the fault of Dave Brailsford of course!)

That said, Syed really goes on a roll there, you'd think DB is the smartest renaissance man in the world

And that's the state of the media... imgine being 12 and looking at your heroes perform. You'd eat this as candy.

 

[zalacain]

Re: Re:

^
I wonder what other Times sports staff think off Syed.
Every UK citizen should be seriously pissed off to be paying Syeds BBC wage.

If you look at the graphic in the top corner you will see it's $ky who pay him. Quelle surprise!

 

[sniper]

cheers Zalacain, well spotted.

Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.

 

[MarkvW]

Re:

cheers Zalacain, well spotted.

Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.

Roll is utterly untrustworthy.

 

[Ironhead Slim]

Re:

cheers Zalacain, well spotted.

Bob Roll a.k.a. Bobke having a good laugh at Team Sky. From 10:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCmHpUKcdEI&t=1116s
If Bobke who is all omerta about his own time as a pro is calling out Sky it must be bad.

Bobke is having quite the chuckle. That is true comedy gold!

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

Masterclass in rewriting history from Matthew Syed
https://twitter.com/mocycling/status/839802311216099329

:lol:

Interestingly enough, he mentioned nothing of rounder wheels and fluffier pillows.

:lol: Dave B. introduced cleaning of the hands with (wait for it)... Hand gel! That had never been done before Dave Brailsford started the marginal gains program at Sky. :lol:

What a tool...

Give him some credit. He tweeted this yesterday!:

'Encouraged by energy of many young clinicians. They are keen to change culture, to innovate, and recognise importance of learning from error.'

 

[thehook]

Re:

IMHO
:EDIT:
Current state of Pro Cycling at Team SKY......and others

Low Octane
Kenacourt- Great to train on. No TUE needed. Burns Mucho Fat. Recovery aid........Race on as well TUE needed
Viagra- Perfect for a Mountain stage. It acts as a Vaso Dilator. Last 3-4 ours. Dilates ALL Blood Vessels. Not just the 'custard'.
Inhaler- Sambuterol etc...Broncho Dilator. Opens up the Alveoli in the lungs. Better/faster 0 2 uptake.
Tramadol; Low dose finishing bottle. Dulls the pain. Would work great when used with the top ^ 3
Cortico cream due to skin rash?



High Octane
Altitude Camp. Skews Passport so EPO possible.
OR go to SA to train with a buddy. Micro dose

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Sky

If Sky fall, people like this HAVE to be taken to account.

It can't be like with Armstrong that the biggest scumbags of all - Ligget, Kirby etc, got to pretend they weren't part of it

Uhm what? Of course they can and will deny it. it wil have hardly any consequences outside theis echo-chamber.

On Syed... glad I'm not British, as the whole "Sir" grates me (not the fault of Dave Brailsford of course!)

That said, Syed really goes on a roll there, you'd think DB is the smartest renaissance man in the world

And that's the state of the media... imgine being 12 and looking at your heroes perform. You'd eat this as candy.

Franklin what does the bolded part mean, the kids eating it as candy? Just curious.
Do you mean kids will be influenced by these lies and have false impressions of the sport?
If so, I think that's a really important point.

Syed, Moore, Fotheringham et al should be banned from ever writing or talking anything about cycling ever again.

 

[Catwhoorg]

30 paracetamol a day would not be illegal.

Stupid, an overdose, and with a major risk of liver damage, but not illegal.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

IMHO

Current state of Pro Cycling at Team SKY......and others

Low Octane
Kenacourt- Great to train on. No TUE needed. Burns Mucho Fat. Recovery aid........Race on as well TUE needed
Viagra- Perfect for a Mountain stage. It acts as a Vaso Dilator. Last 3-4 ours. Dilates ALL Blood Vessels. Not just the 'custard'.
Tramadol; Low dose finishing bottle. Dulls the pain. Would work great when used with the top ^ 2.
Cortico cream due to skin rash?

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? Makes a difference. You can take 6 ibuprofens a day if you want (or 12 on prescription) as well as 8 paracetamol. So that's 14 quite easily ...




High Octane
Altitude Camp. Skews Passport so EPO possible.
OR go to SA to train with a buddy. Micro dose

CIRC report had riders taking up to 30 tablets a day during GTs. If that was only Viagra and Tramadol it would be strange.

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? You can take 8 paracetamol and 6 ibuprofen a day without prescription. Add in some vitamins, CLA and L-Carnitine and you could be near 20 already.

I don't dispute what is said - it just needs context.

Read the CIRC.

Also read LA Confidential where Ballestre goes into the medicinal cabinets of teams in 2000 and 2001

The drugs manifest of one team from the 2000 Tour. One hundred twenty-six products. Six hundred and eighty-four individual packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to seven thousand four hundred and twenty-two individual doses. The 2001 manifest for the same team, which the authors also procured, covered one hundred and nineteen different products. Seven hundred and ninety packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to eight thousand, three hundred and thirty-four doses. This is for a team of nine riders in a twenty-one day race. Do the math on the daily doses yourself.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/3/16/2054131/the-shadow-of-the-syringe

 

[blackcat]

think Syed got a first in PPE at Baloil Oxford.

I was of the opinion, you dont get a first if you are an idjit.

I was mistaken.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

IMHO

Current state of Pro Cycling at Team SKY......and others

Low Octane
Kenacourt- Great to train on. No TUE needed. Burns Mucho Fat. Recovery aid........Race on as well TUE needed
Viagra- Perfect for a Mountain stage. It acts as a Vaso Dilator. Last 3-4 ours. Dilates ALL Blood Vessels. Not just the 'custard'.
Tramadol; Low dose finishing bottle. Dulls the pain. Would work great when used with the top ^ 2.
Cortico cream due to skin rash?

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? Makes a difference. You can take 6 ibuprofens a day if you want (or 12 on prescription) as well as 8 paracetamol. So that's 14 quite easily ...




High Octane
Altitude Camp. Skews Passport so EPO possible.
OR go to SA to train with a buddy. Micro dose

CIRC report had riders taking up to 30 tablets a day during GTs. If that was only Viagra and Tramadol it would be strange.

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? You can take 8 paracetamol and 6 ibuprofen a day without prescription. Add in some vitamins, CLA and L-Carnitine and you could be near 20 already.

I don't dispute what is said - it just needs context.

Read the CIRC.

Also read LA Confidential where Ballestre goes into the medicinal cabinets of teams in 2000 and 2001

The drugs manifest of one team from the 2000 Tour. One hundred twenty-six products. Six hundred and eighty-four individual packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to seven thousand four hundred and twenty-two individual doses. The 2001 manifest for the same team, which the authors also procured, covered one hundred and nineteen different products. Seven hundred and ninety packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to eight thousand, three hundred and thirty-four doses. This is for a team of nine riders in a twenty-one day race. Do the math on the daily doses yourself.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/3/16/2054131/the-shadow-of-the-syringe

I just wrote about Syed getting a first at Oxford.

What about these MDs.

Has no one ever studied epidemiology or looked at how they will potential overburden the endocrine jabbing people with so many things...

King Boonen, interested in your opinion again, because you rightfully correct my ignorance on science matters, even tho you appreciate where I am coming from it as a lay person.

But, serious again. All of these jabs of declinging marginal utility, certainly there would be a question, about a threshold of negative economy.

Edita Rumsas did it in the back of a camper, presumably just some testo and cortisone and EPO. I would think if you seek to cover the spectrum of potential PEDs, you will reach a threshold pretty darn quick, where you get into potential PED negative economy, pretty soon, and not even equating for 'risk'.

I thought the 'more = better' ethic, was for punters at a music festival, or a dance festival, in Manchester, in a shell suit, or not in a shellsuit.

Syed and doctors can well be idiots with a putative edumacation[sic]

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

IMHO

Current state of Pro Cycling at Team SKY......and others

Low Octane
Kenacourt- Great to train on. No TUE needed. Burns Mucho Fat. Recovery aid........Race on as well TUE needed
Viagra- Perfect for a Mountain stage. It acts as a Vaso Dilator. Last 3-4 ours. Dilates ALL Blood Vessels. Not just the 'custard'.
Tramadol; Low dose finishing bottle. Dulls the pain. Would work great when used with the top ^ 2.
Cortico cream due to skin rash?

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? Makes a difference. You can take 6 ibuprofens a day if you want (or 12 on prescription) as well as 8 paracetamol. So that's 14 quite easily ...




High Octane
Altitude Camp. Skews Passport so EPO possible.
OR go to SA to train with a buddy. Micro dose

CIRC report had riders taking up to 30 tablets a day during GTs. If that was only Viagra and Tramadol it would be strange.

30 tablets or 30 different tablets? You can take 8 paracetamol and 6 ibuprofen a day without prescription. Add in some vitamins, CLA and L-Carnitine and you could be near 20 already.

I don't dispute what is said - it just needs context.

Read the CIRC.

Also read LA Confidential where Ballestre goes into the medicinal cabinets of teams in 2000 and 2001

The drugs manifest of one team from the 2000 Tour. One hundred twenty-six products. Six hundred and eighty-four individual packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to seven thousand four hundred and twenty-two individual doses. The 2001 manifest for the same team, which the authors also procured, covered one hundred and nineteen different products. Seven hundred and ninety packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to eight thousand, three hundred and thirty-four doses. This is for a team of nine riders in a twenty-one day race. Do the math on the daily doses yourself.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/3/16/2054131/the-shadow-of-the-syringe

I just wrote about Syed getting a first at Oxford.

What about these MDs.

Has no one ever studied epidemiology or looked at how they will potential overburden the endocrine jabbing people with so many things...

King Boonen, interested in your opinion again, because you rightfully correct my ignorance on science matters, even tho you appreciate where I am coming from it as a lay person.

But, serious again. All of these jabs of declinging marginal utility, certainly there would be a question, about a threshold of negative economy.

Edita Rumsas did it in the back of a camper, presumably just some testo and cortisone and EPO. I would think if you seek to cover the spectrum of potential PEDs, you will reach a threshold pretty darn quick, where you get into potential PED negative economy, pretty soon, and not even equating for 'risk'.

I thought the 'more = better' ethic, was for punters at a music festival, or a dance festival, in Manchester, in a shell suit, or not in a shellsuit.

Syed and doctors can well be idiots with a putative edumacation[sic]

Edita had more than Epo, Testo and cortisone iirc.

But yep some of these MDs way over rated. Some pretty sharp nurses out there running rings around hospital consultants.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Edita had more than Epo, Testo and cortisone iirc.

But yep some of these MDs way over rated. Some pretty sharp nurses out there running rings around hospital consultants.

my point stands, lets forget about consultant specialist docs, baloil firsts,

but more=better only is for intelligence mindset of a recreational drug party goer.

i am asking, where the heck is the diseconomy.

If we are talking with Dan2016 about legalising... Ferrari could have done the whole PED doping niche a major aid, but discussing this theory, of diseconomy or negative economy. Where gains are. Where risks are.

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

Edita had more than Epo, Testo and cortisone iirc.

But yep some of these MDs way over rated. Some pretty sharp nurses out there running rings around hospital consultants.

my point stands, lets forget about consultant specialist docs, baloil firsts,

but more=better only is for intelligence mindset of a recreational drug party goer.

i am asking, where the heck is the diseconomy.

If we are talking with Dan2016 about legalising... Ferrari could have done the whole PED doping niche a major aid, but discussing this theory, of diseconomy or negative economy. Where gains are. Where risks are.

Good points regarding more = better.

There was a chapter in Robert Millar's autobiography about a French (I think) doctor at the time who was promoting legalising doping. Few years since I read it, memory a bit vague, but I think the doc wrote a book or maybe a paper on this subject. I always meant to track it down but never did.

The basic premise, as you're saying blackcat, is that riders were taking far more than they actually needed for any performance gains. He preceded Ferrari in his 'no more harmful than drinking excessive amounts of orange juice' argument (which was unfortunately caricatured and ridiculed).

These guys know their peanuts, or potatoes, or lamas, whatever the expression is. They should be listened to.

One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.

Zeno's doping paradox

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.

Zeno's doping paradox

Aesop's fable.

#phenomenologyispoo
#edsheeranisreallyreallyshit

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.

Zeno's doping paradox

Aesop's fable.

#phenomenologyispoo
#edsheeranisreallyreallyshit

The thing with legalizing doping is that you'd still have to have limits, otherwise you would quickly be in an arms race without limit and someone would end up dead. No sport could condone a situation where it was effectively legal to risk serious harm and even death without sanction or mitigating risk.

As soon as you have a limit, you'll have people cheat the limit to gain advantage. And so you go back to where you started from - trying to detect cheats.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

One of the benefits of legal doping is safe or safer doping, proper medical supervision.

Zeno's doping paradox

Aesop's fable.

#phenomenologyispoo
#edsheeranisreallyreallyshit

The thing with legalizing doping is that you'd still have to have limits, otherwise you would quickly be in an arms race without limit and someone would end up dead. No sport could condone a situation where it was effectively legal to risk serious harm and even death without sanction or mitigating risk.

As soon as you have a limit, you'll have people cheat the limit to gain advantage. And so you go back to where you started from - trying to detect cheats.

the fallacy here, is not recognising the gap, the separation between having people on comprehensive doping program, versus a clean athlete, rule of thumb, FTP 20%.

the gap between legalized doping program, and potential individuals over and above, would be significantly less than 1%.

This has not been presented with adequate coherence.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Sky

I agree with the above.

Since the first stone throwing contest a million years ago, contestants have tried to get an edge, stepping over the line, replacing the stone with a lighter one, whatever...

Cheating is one of the byproducts of homo sapiens.

Allowing doping, to me, is giving up the fight. And who's the next generation of riders? Who will put their kids through guinea pig experiments, so they can become champions...and it will start early. People will die and cycling will die. Or be a freak show like bodybuilding, marginal...not a major sport.

Advocating for legal doping is, when you dig a little, surrendering. Giving away your integrity. Since when is it OK to cheat at anything? Shouldn't we educate our kids better instead, so they refuse to cheat, do the right thing, and expose the cheaters?

The bottom line is: if you have asthma, ride for fun. If you have any condition, ride for fun. If you suffer from allergies? Don't race in the spring. If you are lucky to have the genetics, no medical conditions, you train hard and have the will to suffer more than your opponents, good for you.

That so many contribute in this forum clearly demonstrates that the fight is not over. But the good guys will prevail.