Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Robert5091]

http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeutic-use-exemptions/

4. Conditions for granting TUE

Article 4.1- UCI Regulations for TUE

A rider may be granted a TUE if (and only if) he/she can show that each of the following conditions is met:

a. The prohibited substance or prohibited method in question is needed to treat an acute or chronic medical condition, such that the Rider would experience a significant impairment to health if the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method were to be withheld.

b. The therapeutic use of the prohibited substance or prohibited method is highly unlikely to produce any additional enhancement of performance beyond what might be anticipated by a return to the rider’s normal state of health following the treatment of the acute or chronic medical condition.

c. There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the prohibited substance or prohibited method.

d. The necessity for the use of the prohibited substance or prohibited method is not a consequence, wholly or in part, of the prior use (without a TUE) of a substance or method which was prohibited at the time of such use.

[Comment to 4.1: The WADA documents titled “Medical Information to Support the Decisions of TUECs”, posted on WADA’s website, can be used to assist in the application of these criteria in relation to particular medical conditions.]

 

[Salvarani]

Re:

Ban Froome and this whole team. Enough is enough.

that's the spirit.....hate 'em...I really hate 'em

but given such a strict criteria.................how many world tour teams would survive?

how many would be banned ahead of team sky

it's not just be chance so few world tor teams are signed up to MPCC

Mark L

I thought this thread was about Sky and not other teams? I posted what I think should happen with Froome and Sky. So I dont why you would make the assumption that I dont care if other teams cheat?

But since you brought it up... if news break about riders at others teams and the same reports that has been about Sky comes to light... I will think and say exactly the same about them, as I said in my first post.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Wiggins broke no rules, so why should the TdF win be taken from him?

If he lied about a non-existing illness to receive a TUE to abuse a normally banned substance. He broke the rules.
I am just speculating.

Yep, it's pretty clear from the report that they think he did break the doping rules. Although they can not actually say it in those terms because the evidence for that is based on putting 2+2 together, rather than a 100% cast iron smoking gun. And there will never be 100% certainty in these kind of circumstances without the rider (or maybe the doctor) actually saying that it was intentional doping. So this is pretty much as damning as you can get.

So even if the TdF title can not technically be removed, Sky and Wiggins can be thoroughly discredited on the back of this report. This is absolutely the most damning verdict that could have been given by the parliamentary committee. They essentially called Brailsford a liar and a fraud, and Wiggins a cheat.

If the Tour was taken off him it goes to Froome. Now that is a joke

Ahhhh .... shyte! We were tryin to blow that one by the The Clinic guards ... while the cadres carved up SBW. Shhhhh! Feck! We're blown.

 

[yaco]

My take is Parker is fairly much on the ball with his posts - Government Select Committees are there to make sure dollars are spent wisely and to make recommendations to improve services - As Parker points out, if they are worrying about Non-British cyclists from 20 or 30 years ago that seems to be out of their terms of reference - The key targets are Sky and in particular in British Cycling - Of course the irony in this report is politicians have aided and abetted this deception by their lack of GOVERNANCE - They needed better monitoring of these programs with more robust reporting mechanisms - Of course politicians are cheerleaders at the time when athletes are winning medals/championships, yet they run away at a million miles per hour at the sign of trouble - Colour me cynical.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

From what I've read so far in various reports, they have also not limited their findings to just one doctor and just one rider. Explicit reference to 'a source' who claims that 'a small group' of key support riders were 'all using corticosteroids OOC to lean down...'. Matt Lawton reports, in the Mail. His quotes.

Isn't that down to Anonymous's 'evidence'?

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Sky

The crucial point is that the rules allowed Wiggins to do this.

Whether you like it or not the rules allowed him to do this. That is not a defence of Wiggins, it's stating a fact. Which is why Wiggins has not committed a doping offence.

It’s not a fact, it’s an interpretation, one that depends on defining the rules according to what the rider did, rather than according to what he intended to do. Since Wiggins took a substance that, per his TUE, he was allowed to take, the argument is that he broke no rules, even if he took the substance with the intention of performance enhancement.

But both behavior and intention are key determinants of whether doping took place. That’s why one of the criteria used to determine whether a substance or method is prohibited is if it violates the spirit of the sport (4.3.1.3); taking a substance that is supposed to be used for medical reasons for PE clearly violates the spirit. Intent is also why a rider can commit an ADRV even if s/he merely “attempts” to use a prohibited substance:

2.2.2 The success or failure of the use or attempted use of a prohibited substance or prohibited method is not material. It is sufficient that the prohibited substance or prohibited method was used or attempted to be used for an anti-doping rule violation to be committed.

[Comment to Article 2.2.2: Demonstrating the “Attempted Use” of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method requires proof of intent on the Athlete’s part.

WADA clearly believe that merely intending to dope, by itself, is evidence of an ADRV.

Finally, this is why proof of intent in the case of actual use of a prohibited substance carries a larger penalty (10.2.1). While intention does not have to be established to conclude an ADRV, if it is established, it makes the violation worse. In fact, if Wiggins’s intent to dope could be proven (very unlikely, IMO, even if true) he should be facing four years, which, given that he’s retired, I suppose would be carved out of his career by some creative back-dating.

In which case, imagine this scenario, highly unlikely but not impossible:

1) Wiggins is stripped of the 2012 Tour title, giving it to Froome, who now has five titles

2) Froome is cleared before the Giro starts, and goes on to win that and the Tour, giving him a record six TDF titles, and eight GT wins

3) Wiggins’ TDF title is restored to him on appeal, so Froome is back to five TDF wins

4) Froome loses his case on appeal, and with it the 2017 Vuelta, and the 2018 Giro and TDF, and is back to four TDF titles and four GT wins

Froome goes from five to eight to four GT wins, in a matter of months.

 

[bambino]

Re: Sky

The crucial point is that the rules allowed Wiggins to do this.

Whether you like it or not the rules allowed him to do this. That is not a defence of Wiggins, it's stating a fact. Which is why Wiggins has not committed a doping offence.

It’s not a fact, it’s an interpretation, one that depends on defining the rules according to what the rider did, rather than according to what he intended to do. Since Wiggins took a substance that, per his TUE, he was allowed to take, the argument is that he broke no rules, even if he took the substance with the intention of performance enhancement.

But both behavior and intention are key determinants of whether doping took place. That’s why one of the criteria used to determine whether a substance or method is prohibited is if it violates the spirit of the sport (4.3.1.3); taking a substance that is supposed to be used for medical reasons for PE clearly violates the spirit. Intent is also why a rider can commit an ADRV even if s/he merely “attempts” to use a prohibited substance:

2.2.2 The success or failure of the use or attempted use of a prohibited substance or prohibited method is not material. It is sufficient that the prohibited substance or prohibited method was used or attempted to be used for an anti-doping rule violation to be committed.

[Comment to Article 2.2.2: Demonstrating the “Attempted Use” of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method requires proof of intent on the Athlete’s part.

WADA clearly believe that merely intending to dope, by itself, is evidence of an ADRV.

Finally, this is why proof of intent in the case of actual use of a prohibited substance carries a larger penalty (10.2.1). While intention does not have to be established to conclude an ADRV, if it is established, it makes the violation worse. In fact, if Wiggins’s intent to dope could be proven (very unlikely, IMO, even if true) he should be facing four years, which, given that he’s retired, I suppose would be carved out of his career by some creative back-dating.

In which case, imagine this scenario, highly unlikely but not impossible:

1) Wiggins is stripped of the 2012 Tour title, giving it to Froome, who now has five titles

2) Froome is cleared before the Giro starts, and goes on to win that and the Tour, giving him a record six TDF titles, and eight GT wins

3) Wiggins’ TDF title is restored to him on appeal, so Froome is back to five TDF wins

4) Froome loses his case on appeal, and with it the 2017 Vuelta, and the 2018 Giro and TDF, and is back to four TDF titles and four GT wins

Froome goes from five to eight to four GT wins, in a matter of months.

As convinced as I am this will never take place - I have to admit it would be hilarious and entertaining. I would love to see the reaction of ASO.

Add to the imaginery hypothesis that it is somehow revealed that Froome is one the alleged other Sky riders that has been using triamcinolone and gets stripped off his result in 2012 as well - that would suddenly make Nibali 6 times GT winner (including the Vuelta 2017). How about that voodoo?

 

[MartinGT]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

I heard that too.
All you need is a parliamentary report and Eurosport start to waiver the risk of being sued.
How beauteous mankind is!
O brave new world,.
That has such people in it!

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

Not as unhappy as Rob Hatch was when Smith brought up the issue of the testosterone patches

 

[MartinGT]

Aye. Hatch followed through.
Hatch 'we must say they were sent by accident'
Smith 'not what I've heard'

Lol

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

*** him. He defended them. Just like he did Lance. What a rat

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

**** him. He defended them. Just like he did Lance. What a rat

Make money building up a lie.
Make money destroying it.

Rinse
Repeat

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

**** him. He defended them. Just like he did Lance. What a rat

What that brian smith, the brian smith who rode pro with Sutton on a team. A team with manager keith lambert who is currently holding tightly onto his seat on the gravy train as BC U23 manager ?
Brian Smith Calling out SDB and SBW ? Dopers ?

Keith lambert appointed by Sutton to his post.

Has Keith stopped running his website business selling hgh and other stuff yet ? Its the sort of sideline you do as a national cycling coach isn't it? Well we all have to turn a crust.

This isn't a case of "the tree is no sooner down than everyone runs for their axe" aka "media amnesia" like we had with Lance. This is more like the people who were part of the protection scheme and enablers for the scam, the scam whose details they knew, oh, oh so well first hand, are now masquerading as ingénues, who only now have the sweet little innocents had the scales taken from their eyes about them nasty dopers.

Get stuffed Smith.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

**** him. He defended them. Just like he did Lance. What a rat

What that brian smith, the brian smith who rode pro with Sutton on a team. A team with manager keith lambert who is currently holding tightly onto his seat on the gravy train as BC U23 manager ?
Brian Smith Calling out SDB and SBW ? Dopers ?

Keith lambert appointed by Sutton to his post.

Has Keith stopped running his website business selling hgh and other stuff yet ? Its the sort of sideline you do as a national cycling coach isn't it? Well we all have to turn a crust.

This isn't a case of "the tree is no sooner down than everyone runs for their axe" aka "media amnesia" like we had with Lance. This is more like the people who were part of the protection scheme and enablers for the scam, the scam whose details they knew, oh, oh so well first hand, are now masquerading as ingénues, who only now have the sweet little innocents had the scales taken from their eyes about them nasty dopers.

Get stuffed Smith.

Good to see you back in the clinic FTF!

Cheers

 

[hfer07]

Re: Sky

Brian Smith on Eurosport now, he's calling out SDB and Sky. He knows how filthy they are. Doesn't sound happy at all.

**** him. He defended them. Just like he did Lance. What a rat

Make money building up a lie.
Make money destroying it.

Rinse
Repeat

Exactly- Ala Phil Liggett & Paul Sherwen

 

[bigcog]

BBC just had Tiernan-Locke saying he can't see how SDB can stay in his position now, but BBC failed to say he was banned for doping. Irrespective of whether SDB should go or not, that is pretty shoddy.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Definately an asterix next to the 2012 tour now.

Cadel's start of a new era 2011 tour win looks a lot more dodgy now that the anglophone heroes Ryder and brad don't look quite as clean as JV and co claimed.

Except there isnt, and to think that there is displays a misunderstanding of the purpose of the DCMS select committee.

The crucial point is that the rules allowed Wiggins to do this. The point of the DCMS is, ultimately, to change the rules. That is not to exonerate Wiggins and Sky from their lack of ethics, but to point out That the current structure of the sport allows unethical behaviour to take place.

Select committees aren't about external events, they are about ensuring that the department is able to work effectively. In other words, this is all about making changes to render illegal what is currently merely unethical.

it is exactly the opposite; sky exploited and abused the TUE system, by applying for a TUE for a banned drug to give their competitor an edge, a marginal gain if you like...

Whether you like it or not the rules allowed him to do this. That is not a defence of Wiggins, it's stating a fact. Which is why Wiggins has not committed a doping offence.

Clearly DCMS would like it to be an offence in future and you and I would agree.

What the reports says about Team Sky ethics is another thing entirely...They don't have any...but as it stands that isnt against the rules either.

we read the rules differently then! my reading of the rules is that you must have a genuine medical need, verified and signed off by your, ahem, team doctor, in order to apply for and receive a TUE for a drug that would confer an advantage over a rider that cannot use that ordinarily banned drug. to me, that is breaking the rules, the spirit and intent of the rules too. it is clear the committee concluded that skys abuse of the TUE system was unethical, disingenuous and dishonest. if all teams are allowed do this then it becomes a complete doping free for all

But Wiggins' need wasnt signed off solely by the team - they had a third party specialist do that.

 

[yaco]

Re: Sky

Definately an asterix next to the 2012 tour now.

Cadel's start of a new era 2011 tour win looks a lot more dodgy now that the anglophone heroes Ryder and brad don't look quite as clean as JV and co claimed.

Except there isnt, and to think that there is displays a misunderstanding of the purpose of the DCMS select committee.

The crucial point is that the rules allowed Wiggins to do this. The point of the DCMS is, ultimately, to change the rules. That is not to exonerate Wiggins and Sky from their lack of ethics, but to point out That the current structure of the sport allows unethical behaviour to take place.

Select committees aren't about external events, they are about ensuring that the department is able to work effectively. In other words, this is all about making changes to render illegal what is currently merely unethical.

Actually it's sport in general, not just cycling - WADA rules apply to all sports who sign up for the code.

 

[hfer07]

Re: Sky

so the SKY house of cards is collapsing on its own bvllsh!t it seems...

how long before we have an ex-SKY rider spilling the beans..?

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Sky

Definately an asterix next to the 2012 tour now.

Cadel's start of a new era 2011 tour win looks a lot more dodgy now that the anglophone heroes Ryder and brad don't look quite as clean as JV and co claimed.

Except there isnt, and to think that there is displays a misunderstanding of the purpose of the DCMS select committee.

The crucial point is that the rules allowed Wiggins to do this. The point of the DCMS is, ultimately, to change the rules. That is not to exonerate Wiggins and Sky from their lack of ethics, but to point out That the current structure of the sport allows unethical behaviour to take place.

Select committees aren't about external events, they are about ensuring that the department is able to work effectively. In other words, this is all about making changes to render illegal what is currently merely unethical.

"Ethics, ethics, ethics, grey area, no rules broken, within the laws."

"What about those testosterone patches?"

** ** **

If they're doing corticosteriods to lose weight/gain power, and they're doing testosterone to train longer/harder then they are categorically doping in the full sense of the term, using classic old school methods.

Add that to the climbing records set by Froome etc it is basically impossible to believe that they ain't micro dosing epo as well.

And if the retort is 'no evidence' just remember that there was no evidence before some Russian hack, but plenty of people here could not believe Wiggins was riding up cols the way he was clean.

 

[jfazendeiro]

What is your opinion about the extension of this practice in the team? Sky kept it for Wiggins alone or just a strict circle with strong connections with the project (also Froome and G. Thomas), or was spread to all the team?

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

What is your opinion about the extension of this practice in the team? Sky kept it for Wiggins alone or just a strict circle with strong connections with the project (also Froome and G. Thomas), or was spread to all the team?

You can tell in these ways:

a. whichever domestique looks super skinny at the start of a GT, but also rides with the strength of ten men and puts out higher watts than ever before, blowing away actual GC contenders (Rogers, Poels, Moscon).
b. whoever turns from trackie/classics man to goat and back again at will (Thomas).
c. whoever turns from donkey to great champion (Froome).

It's the absurd transformations that have irritated the long term fan, even more than the b/s ethical phantasms.

 

[wheezypuffs]

Re: Sky

A horrid day for sporting knights
Once heroes fallen from great heights

Froome & Brailsford, Mo & Brad
Media coverage makes them sad

Wiggo scaled the Alps with ease
With his pocketful of TUE's

Powerful, yet skin and bone
Thanks to Triamcinolone

Fabricating allergy
Was Team Sky's master strategy

Performances to raise red flags
Marginal gains and jiffy bags

We have to thank the Fancy Bears
For catching Brailsford unawares

Laptops stolen, steroid patches
Fairytale writers have met their matches

Froome slithered up the Pyrenees
Without a care, without a wheeze

Just when things were getting tough
He took that fatal extra puff

Using asthma as a shield
To keep a level playing field

Asthma was his kryptonite
That and a blood-borne parasite

Most of cycling's top contestants
Using Tramadol & decongestants

Farah also caused confusion
With his L-Carnitine infusion

From also-ran to bullet-proof
Dodgy doorbells, sounds like spoof?

Our heroes are such sickly souls
Our emperors have got no clothes

Their legacies are as intact
As their frail respiratory tracts

 

[53*11]

Re: Sky

A horrid day for sporting knights
Once heroes fallen from great heights

Froome & Brailsford, Mo & Brad
Media coverage makes them sad

Wiggo scaled the Alps with ease
With his pocketful of TUE's

Powerful, yet skin and bone
Thanks to Triamcinolone

Fabricating allergy
Was Team Sky's master strategy

Performances to raise red flags
Marginal gains and jiffy bags

We have to thank the Fancy Bears
For catching Brailsford unawares

Laptops stolen, steroid patches
Fairytale writers have met their matches

Froome slithered up the Pyrenees
Without a care, without a wheeze

Just when things were getting tough
He took that fatal extra puff

Using asthma as a shield
To keep a level playing field

Asthma was his kryptonite
That and a blood-borne parasite

Most of cycling's top contestants
Using Tramadol & decongestants

Farah also caused confusion
With his L-Carnitine infusion

From also-ran to bullet-proof
Dodgy doorbells, sounds like spoof?

Our heroes are such sickly souls
Our emperors have got no clothes

Their legacies are as intact
As their frail respiratory tracts

now thats an elegant first post, chapeau !