Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Bernal perfectly exemplifies why everyone is so pissed at Wiggins, Froome and Thomas.

That's what a GT winner, with GT pedigree and qualities, looks like.

So too does Rohan Dennis. That's what a track star trying to turn into a GT winner looks like.

Apart from the fact that through the whole history of the tour, little climbers were generally not tour winners and big all rounders were.

By 'perfectly exemplifies' I really meant: placing 4th and then winning Tour l'avenir.

As opposed to: winning team and individual pursuits.

As well as Dennis, one could think of the other Australian pursuit riders who rode against Wiggins and Thomas and now ride WT:
Hepburn: pure domestique.
Durbridge: could probably win 3 days de panne one day.
Bobridge: currently in jail, won one national championships.

Could any of them turn into a Grand Tour Star?? They had the engine all along didn't they?

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Bernal perfectly exemplifies why everyone is so pissed at Wiggins, Froome and Thomas.

That's what a GT winner, with GT pedigree and qualities, looks like.

So too does Rohan Dennis. That's what a track star trying to turn into a GT winner looks like.

Apart from the fact that through the whole history of the tour, little climbers were generally not tour winners and big all rounders were.

By 'perfectly exemplifies' I really meant: placing 4th and then winning Tour l'avenir.

As opposed to: winning team and individual pursuits.

As well as Dennis, one could think of the other Australian pursuit riders who rode against Wiggins and Thomas and now ride WT:
Hepburn: pure domestique.
Durbridge: could probably win 3 days de panne one day.
Bobridge: currently in jail, won one national championships.

Could any of them turn into a Grand Tour Star?? They had the engine all along didn't they?

Wiggins/Thomas...the perfect example of sportsmen who have the talent and mental toughness to prepare for and win, time and again over multiple years, the biggest events in the world in their chosen disciplines. Not just world class, but the absolute best in the world in their chosen field.

Rohan Dennis...a world class athlete, enjoyed success on the track for a short period. Never seems to have fully decided wether he’s a TT specialist or genuine GC contender. Anecdotally appears to be lacking the mental quality that sets the best in the world apart from merely world class athletes.

Bobridge...well we know how that story ended

 

[King Boonen]

Nice to see Poels yo-yo ing off the back of the back up to Val Thornes and then all of a sudden is fine for Top 10 finish on the stage.

Probably did a blood bag mid-stage

:lol: :lol:

I know it’s funny, you don’t need blood bags now a days just asthma treatment and Ketones

Couldn't any team just get sponsored by a company that makes exogenic ketone supplements and drink them for free? Between this and the camper Im beginning to think Ineos must be brain doping.

Of course, but the current market is very small and supplying a team for a year is probably all your profits gone with no guaranteed return. I think it's likely economics that are the driving force behind teams purchasing these rather than being supplied with them.

I seem to remember Sky were involved with a company who were developing them at some point, so maybe they got them free then?

 

[rick james]

Wasn’t a university that sky were involved with when developing them, I’m sure it was Oxford

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Wasn’t a university that sky were involved with when developing them, I’m sure it was Oxford

Possibly. More likely Loughborough, Bath or Brighton for sports science. Bath rings a bell for some reason, maybe that was the Henao stuff...

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

Wasn’t a university that sky were involved with when developing them, I’m sure it was Oxford

That was my impression too.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Bernal perfectly exemplifies why everyone is so pissed at Wiggins, Froome and Thomas.

That's what a GT winner, with GT pedigree and qualities, looks like.

So too does Rohan Dennis. That's what a track star trying to turn into a GT winner looks like.

Apart from the fact that through the whole history of the tour, little climbers were generally not tour winners and big all rounders were.

By 'perfectly exemplifies' I really meant: placing 4th and then winning Tour l'avenir.

As opposed to: winning team and individual pursuits.

As well as Dennis, one could think of the other Australian pursuit riders who rode against Wiggins and Thomas and now ride WT:
Hepburn: pure domestique.
Durbridge: could probably win 3 days de panne one day.
Bobridge: currently in jail, won one national championships.

Could any of them turn into a Grand Tour Star?? They had the engine all along didn't they?

Wiggins/Thomas...the perfect example of sportsmen who have the talent and mental toughness to prepare for and win, time and again over multiple years, the biggest events in the world in their chosen disciplines. Not just world class, but the absolute best in the world in their chosen field.

Rohan Dennis...a world class athlete, enjoyed success on the track for a short period. Never seems to have fully decided wether he’s a TT specialist or genuine GC contender. Anecdotally appears to be lacking the mental quality that sets the best in the world apart from merely world class athletes.

Bobridge...well we know how that story ended

yeah, that describes Thomas to a T for all the years as a "classics specialist"
all those spring classics victories and monuments won through his "talent and mental toughness to prepare for and win, time and again over multiple years... in their chosen disciplines"...

 

[nayr497]

Hard to say what is going on with Bernal. It does seem like Ineos is putting all their money into "training" because they surely didn't set aside much for the graphic designer who worked on their insanely boring kit.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Wasn’t a university that sky were involved with when developing them, I’m sure it was Oxford

Loughborough. It was more a BC\UK Sport deal.

DQS have a similar link with Leuven.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Hard to say what is going on with Bernal. It does seem like Ineos is putting all their money into "training" because they surely didn't set aside much for the graphic designer who worked on their insanely boring kit.

• - Ineos is woke - less fascist design than the Team Sky kit - since totalitarians don't do things in gradients. Social and political awareness more subtle than a simple black-and-white worldview
  
  - Truth in advertisement - Ineos don't foresee the skies on Earth ever being blue in the future, and this design is the mark of prescience, of Sir Jim Ratcliffe as visionary. The knighthood is not for nothing, you know
  
  - Progressive symbolism - for adaptation and resilience as a team. Each cycling season, the black jersey zone (representing petroleum) will become slightly smaller, and the red jersey zone (eerie glow of burning skies as our atmosphere overheats) will become larger.

Woah...you put way too much thought into that...it’s just a cycling kit, and yes a pretty boring one at that

 

[wrinklyvet]

@ ClassicomanoLuigi - yes I agree with brownbobby. It's actually not a bad kit, it's easy to see it in the bunch and in my opinion looks better than the Sky one. But it's odd to see these environmental campaigns and insults to sponsors in the Clinic. Clearly not a lot else going on.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

funny how we thought Ineos looked vulnerable and beatable before and during the TDF. And in the end they finish with a 1-2, more dominant than any year before basically.

 

[rick james]

They were not dominant

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

If you finish 1-2 in a GT without ever looking like you were actually under threat of losing then you were dominant.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Re:

If you finish 1-2 in a GT without ever looking like you were actually under threat of losing then you were dominant.

non choochoo = less dominant.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Nice to see Poels yo-yo ing off the back of the back up to Val Thornes and then all of a sudden is fine for Top 10 finish on the stage.

Probably did a blood bag mid-stage

Like what Quintana tried to do on the descent off the Galibier but missed the vein?

 

[King Boonen]

Obviously wasn't paying attention when he stopped to each his jam sandwich.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re:

Obviously wasn't paying attention when he stopped to each his jam sandwich.

Simple case of eating a jam donut without starting with the hole. But in the Ineos thread? What's going on? Probably more irony.

 

[Pier14]

Re:

Loughborough. It was more a BC\UK Sport deal.

DQS have a similar link with Leuven.

Professor Kieran Clarke at Oxford. Completely independent of any cycling team.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Professor Kieran Clarke at Oxford. Completely independent of any cycling team.

Actually explaining that she helped develop ketones might help.

 

[Pier14]

Actually explaining that she helped develop ketones might help.

Sorry. hadn’t understood only you can post short and inaccurate responses. I’ll be more wordy next time.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Deloitte replaces PwC as Ineos auditor:

The UK’s large accounting firms are increasingly concerned about the reputational impact of their largest clients following scrutiny on the sector in the wake of several corporate collapses and accounting scandals. The Big Four — PwC, Deloitte, EY and KPMG — have begun sweeping reviews of clients this summer to weed out problematic or unprofitable work, which could lead to a purge of risky audits.

PwC publicly disagreed with an Ineos plan "to move the tax residence of Jim Ratcliffe, the billionaire founder of Ineos, and two other directors to Monaco, saving up to £4bn."

When even PwC thinks you're too dodge to deal with...oh dear...

Edit: by coincidence, Deloitte also audit the Tour Racing Ltd accounts.

 

[samhocking]

Professor Kieran Clarke at Oxford. Completely independent of any cycling team.

HVMN's CEO recently said teams had access to Ketones before HVMN deal with Oxford Uni in 2018 to sell it commercially. Kieran Clarke confirmed people had purchased Ketone Ester for years since 2012 directly from Oxford Uni, they just had to ask and sign an NDA (it's a DARPA project) and she said lots of people had used them. WADA have been looking at Ketone Ester since 2010. It would seem rowing and cycling were the very early adopters and the first sports used for performance trials from ~2009 onwards after FDA GRAS approval so I assume British Cycling & British Rowing might have also been early customers, given they would have known the results of the trials before their rivals.

Interestingly Sunweb & Ineos both have said there is an efficacy issue using them. More about Performance efficacy for Sunweb and Nutritional efficacy from Ineos to the point of being a disadvantage, but no real context. Given both are GC teams, I read that to mean perhaps over 3 weeks something changes if you use them continually. Perhaps that explains JA's crash in form in 3rd week and Bernal & Thomas's rise who knows? However there's 2 kinds of Ester on the market - BHB Monoester & AcAc Diester and they have very different characteristics for use in sport so which one Sunweb is talking about is not known and as Kieren Clarke also says, there is no correct way to use them, you have to work it out for yourself what works and what doesn't.

 

[Pier14]

HVMN's CEO recently said teams had access to Ketones before HVMN deal with Oxford Uni in 2018 to sell it commercially. Kieran Clarke confirmed people had purchased Ketone Ester for years since 2012 directly from Oxford Uni, they just had to ask and sign an NDA (it's a DARPA project) and she said lots of people had used them. WADA have been looking at Ketone Ester since 2010. It would seem rowing and cycling were the very early adopters and the first sports used for performance trials from ~2009 onwards after FDA GRAS approval so I assume British Cycling & British Rowing might have also been early customers, given they would have known the results of the trials before their rivals.

Interestingly Sunweb & Ineos both have said there is an efficacy issue using them. More about Performance efficacy for Sunweb and Nutritional efficacy from Ineos to the point of being a disadvantage, but no real context. Given both are GC teams, I read that to mean perhaps over 3 weeks something changes if you use them continually. Perhaps that explains JA's crash in form in 3rd week and Bernal & Thomas's rise who knows? However there's 2 kinds of Ester on the market - BHB Monoester & AcAc Diester and they have very different characteristics for use in sport so which one Sunweb is talking about is not known and as Kieren Clarke also says, there is no correct way to use them, you have to work it out for yourself what works and what doesn't.

I was responding to a post that said it ketone esters were developed in conjunction with Loughborough and another that inferred they were developed with involvement with Team Sky. Neither true. Kieran Clarke's department and spin off company developed them.

There's no credible proof they work as yet.

Team Ineos don't use them.

 

[samhocking]

I was responding to a post that said it ketone esters were developed in conjunction with Loughborough and another that inferred they were developed with involvement with Team Sky. Neither true. Kieran Clarke's department and spin off company developed them.

There's no credible proof they work as yet.

Team Ineos don't use them.

I totally agree. I've tried the HVMN drink and about 20 seconds in a 10 mile TT, but that can happen wekk-to-week on the same course anyway. I think Team Sky did research into them, but yes, they don't use them and their nutritionist said there were more predictable gains from other nutrition strategies in the race.