Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Moose McKnuckles]

Amazing how we're hearing the same arguments defending Sky as we heard defending US Postal.

It's the training. No, it's the cadence. No, it's the dedication. It's the awesome new Madones. Wait, no, it's the power of the Yellow Jersey. It's the power testing from Carmichael. And Bruyneel's tactical genius. All for one. One for one. Argle, blargle, blargh.

Some things never change, I guess.

 

[Big Doopie]

Amazing how we're hearing the same arguments defending Sky as we heard defending US Postal.

agreed. instead of denouncing doping and railing against those who came before him and made his job convincing the fan more difficult, wiggins lashes out at the "non-believers". i thought his tirade was armstrong-redux of the worst kind, whether wiggins is clean or not.

 

[The Chicken]

Brilliant call on the TT, but I'm not sure they will continue to smash it. Someone will reign them in to give them somewhat believable numbers.

The time gaps now are Tour winning margins. We're on day 10. Unbelievable.

Do you think they told Rogers to soft pedal today?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Do you think they told Rogers to soft pedal today?

for sure, and porte, and the rest of the team. let the crushing begin!

 

[Falken]

Amazing how we're hearing the same arguments defending Sky as we heard defending US Postal.

It's the training. No, it's the cadence. No, it's the dedication. It's the awesome new Madones. Wait, no, it's the power of the Yellow Jersey. It's the power testing from Carmichael. And Bruyneel's tactical genius. All for one. One for one. Argle, blargle, blargh.

Some things never change, I guess.

Sky's performance in the classics clearly shows some systematic doping on the team...

Who are the riders that are so much better? I can think of two riders that have taken a huge leap in a short amount of time: Froome and Nordhaug. Who else? Wiggo, not more than a slight improvement since 2009 when he came 4th in TdF. Porte? 8th in the giro 2010, sky put him on a diet so he is leaner than ever and is therefore climbing well, his TT is worse on the other hand. Rogers? His performance in TdF so far indicating some dramtic changes? Nah. Lets see, who else? EBH? No. Flecha? No. Löfkvist? No. Sivtsou? No. Cavendish? No. Uran? Just steady improvement of a young talent.

I'm not as convinced as you are of some major doping going on a lá US Postal.

 

[BroDeal]

Amazing how we're hearing the same arguments defending Sky as we heard defending US Postal.

It's the training. No, it's the cadence. No, it's the dedication. It's the awesome new Madones. Wait, no, it's the power of the Yellow Jersey. It's the power testing from Carmichael. And Bruyneel's tactical genius. All for one. One for one. Argle, blargle, blargh.

Not just that. Armstrong/Postal apologists were often motivated by blind nationalism and we are seeing that in spades here. It is a nice way to build a rapid support base that will not just ignore suspicions but regard them as an affront to the national dignity. Even more bizarre, there seems to be a belief by the British that the national character is above doping.

 

[BYOP88]

@Joker, awesome questions! Someone should pop them on twitter for Brad to have a look at tonight and tomorrow.

 

[filipo]

Even if we POOH-POOH that away we can go to the third of the Moser-Triumvirate, Aldo Sassi, trainer of Evans, Ricco, Rogers and Basso.

Roll eyes? Parrot23, try to look into this stuff before you try to dance.

This may have already been addressed, but: you can't legitimately put Ricco in there. He "worked" with Sassi for what, a month? two? before Sassi died. Don't take the easy road, you're on solid ground as it is.

 

[thehog]

The misconception of team wide doping is every member on the team produces amazing results.

That Sky have being doing with Froome & Wiggins.

The key to team wide doping program is you can control the race. Watch them from Wednesday onwards. They'll sit on front of the peloton for 3 hours each flat stage and later in the week be pacing at 500w up the final climb.

That's the difference.

 

[Dalakhani]

Have Wiggins taken any giant leaps since 2009 when he came 4th after Contador, Schleck and Armstrong? He both timetrialed and climbed well in 2009. And if one agrees that he didn't doped then, when he was with Garmin-Slipstream, I can't see how one can say that he must be doping now when he is with Sky. His slight progress could just as well be explained with a couple of years of hard dedication and building towards TdF.

True.

And, if it were just Wiggins, I wouldn't be particularly suspicious.

But it's the fact that so many of them seem to be at this level.

Think back to the way Rogers and Porte rode the peleton to bits 2 days ago. Add in Froome...

It could be, as I said, that they've made a breakthrough in legit preparation - but it would be a "once in a lifetime" breakthrough for the sport.

As I said, if any team can do that, it's Sky. But they're asking for a lot of faith from the spectators.

 

[Anonymous]

Amazing how we're hearing the same arguments defending Sky as we heard defending US Postal.

It's the training. No, it's the cadence. No, it's the dedication. It's the awesome new Madones. Wait, no, it's the power of the Yellow Jersey. It's the power testing from Carmichael. And Bruyneel's tactical genius. All for one. One for one. Argle, blargle, blargh.

Some things never change, I guess.

+1

This year's version is getting hard to watch. Froome putting a half a minute to Cancellara is just over the top.

Best programme money and influence can buy I guess.

 

[Escarabajo]

Sky's performance in the classics clearly shows some systematic doping on the team...

Who are the riders that are so much better? I can think of two riders that have taken a huge leap in a short amount of time: Froome and Nordhaug. Who else? Wiggo, not more than a slight improvement since 2009 when he came 4th in TdF. Porte? 8th in the giro 2010, sky put him on a diet so he is leaner than ever and is therefore climbing well, his TT is worse on the other hand. Rogers? His performance in TdF so far indicating some dramtic changes? Nah. Lets see, who else? EBH? No. Flecha? No. Löfkvist? No. Sivtsou? No. Cavendish? No. Uran? Just steady improvement of a young talent.

I'm not as convinced as you are of some major doping going on a lá US Postal.

Wiggins made the big jump in 2009.

Froome made the Jump in La Vuelta 2011.

Porte has never, ever shown something like this. Giro position is a bad reference. How he has been dropped in nearly every climb he has climb before this year is a good reference.

Rogers jumped from 2006 (Freiburg) to 2012. That is a big jump if you ask me.

 

[Anonymous]

Wigans:

"you gonna trust me or your lyin' eyes?"

 

[PedalPusher]

Amazing how we're hearing the same arguments defending Sky as we heard defending US Postal.

It's the training. No, it's the cadence. No, it's the dedication. It's the awesome new Madones. Wait, no, it's the power of the Yellow Jersey. It's the power testing from Carmichael. And Bruyneel's tactical genius. All for one. One for one. Argle, blargle, blargh.

Some things never change, I guess.

It is like Postal all over again. Looks like they took the playbook from them.

What kills me is Wiggo was a pursuit guy...now a world's best GC guy? How in the hell does that happen? You go from sprinter to GC? Lose 14 kilos, put 3 or 4 back on, still down 11 kilos and have all that power to TT and climb? I say he just got the "program" right this year compared to others.

And let's not forget, in the cycling world, track guys are notorious for doping, been that way for years...

And let's talk about Froome? pulling for 2 kms up a hard climb, then responds to Cadel's attack then leaves the best GC guys like they were Cat 3's? Sorry, if anyone believe that is just training, hard work and exceptional "sporting ability', you are in denial.

 

[Bala Verde]

True.

And, if it were just Wiggins, I wouldn't be particularly suspicious.

But it's the fact that so many of them seem to be at this level.

Think back to the way Rogers and Porte rode the peleton to bits 2 days ago. Add in Froome...

It could be, as I said, that they've made a breakthrough in legit preparation - but it would be a "once in a lifetime" breakthrough for the sport.

As I said, if any team can do that, it's Sky. But they're asking for a lot of faith from the spectators.

Why (only) Sky?

Just to illustrate, RAB have been pouring money into cycling since 1996... Their aim was to develop young riders, be competitive with dutch cyclistsat the highest level, in classics and at tours, and hopefully, at one point, 'produce' a dutch TdF winner.

And Sky would all of a sudden, within 2-3 years of entering the peloton, be able to do develop new techniques, training models and prepare their handpicked riders to win a TdF, something RAB has been trying to do for 15 years now?

 

[norwegian]

The misconception of team wide doping is every member on the team produces amazing results.

That Sky have being doing with Froome & Wiggins.

The key to team wide doping program is you can control the race. Watch them from Wednesday onwards. They'll sit on front of the peloton for 3 hours each flat stage and later in the week be pacing at 500w up the final climb.

That's the difference.

I do not think Sky has a team dope program. I do not think Wiggins and Froome are doped. And for the team wide doping: Edvald Boasson Hagen doping: NO WAY!!

 

[BroDeal]

Wiggo, not more than a slight improvement since 2009 when he came 4th in TdF.

I don't agree. The 2009 TdF was a joke of a route. The TTT got rid of all contenders who were not on Astana, Slipstream, and CSC. The mountains were ridden slowly. There was only one mountain stage that was worth a damn, and that ended with a descent. Wigans lost lots of time there.

If Vande Velde would have been uninjured then he would have been the Slipstream rider put into fourth

Wiggins has made a big leap since then.

 

[Escarabajo]

I gotta say most of the Pros disagree with all your talk. Brajkovic is one of many to speak out.

"Couple of years ago every1 was laughing at @TeamSky for doing million things trying to improve performance, now when they're flying it's very easy to say they must be doing something... Yes, they r, training, nutrition, dedication, etc. well deserved".

Ok, you all you have to do to have an "Alibi" is talk about improving your performance and two years later destroy everyone. Got it.

So If I tell everyone I'll improve my performance in order to win the Tour is going to happen. Sweet. At least I prevented everyone that the Medical program was coming.

 

[maxmartin]

I do not think Sky has a team dope program. I do not think Wiggins and Froome are doped. And for the team wide doping: Edvald Boasson Hagen doping: NO WAY!!

well at least they asked EB to leave his old trainer only working with SKY people

 

[Franklin]

This may have already been addressed, but: you can't legitimately put Ricco in there. He "worked" with Sassi for what, a month? two? before Sassi died. Don't take the easy road, you're on solid ground as it is.

Good to know... I'll be the first to acknowledge I didn't know that

 

[The Hitch]

Tour de France Stage 10: Mâcon / Bellegarde-sur-Valserine 194.5KM

Might as well move the rest of the Tour into this thread.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Even more bizarre, there seems to be a belief by the British that the national character is above doping.

Yep, agreed. Saw that same nationalism with Armstrong. "He can't dope, he's a hero from the US beating up on the cheating Europeans. He's winning because he's American so he's better." That sort of mindless nationalism is detrimental to any sport.

The baseball and Marion Jones scandals woke some people up though.

 

[hrotha]

The misconception of team wide doping is every member on the team produces amazing results.

Another misconception is that team wide doping is, well, team wide, and that every member of the team must be on the same program. That's not how it works. There's an inner cadre, a sancta sanctorum of riders who are loyal and close together, and those get the top gear stuff.

Personally, I think that doesn't include the classics squad: EBH, Flecha and the like. If they dope, I think they do it independently.

The core of Sky is Wiggins and his Anglo helpers.

 

[Geordiedave]

Not a chance Wiggo/Froome/Brailsford are doping. Dont you all have better things to do than waste time claiming they are?

 

[Dr.Sahl]

I do not think Sky has a team dope program. I do not think Wiggins and Froome are doped. And for the team wide doping: Edvald Boasson Hagen doping: NO WAY!!

I agree with you that I doubt B.H would dope like a crazy, but he actually shows human stuff and drops after some time (like normaly people do now and then)

Froome not doped ?? so you believe that a mediocre cyclist can suddenly from one year to the other, become better than all old GC and talents in the peleton ?? really.....

Wiggins is harder, he did perform well in other stuff, still think he performs abit to much, but I wont judge that untill the next 2 stages...


With your logic, SBT should groome Mørkøv to become the next TDF winner..... ye right.