Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr. Maserati]

Where has all this "Wiggins adores Lance" bs come from? I can't remember anything which shows this.
Not to mention the fact that it's very difficult to "slander" lance because he seem to have a habit of going after people legally etc.

Here you go:

"I love him," Wiggins said. "I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense. Even his strongest critics have benefitted from him. I don't think this sport will ever realise what he's brought it or how big he's made it.

 

[blackcat]

but does Wigans really love him like Vaughters and Landis loved him. They both drunk from the same gatorade, more like first aid.

 

[thehog]

Temper temper

A bit miffled that I show that the cooldown procedure for Sky is called snake oil by scientists and that it certainly isn't a new thing?

Sorry, I'm a sucker for facts over blind belief.

Of course the warming down process somehow trumps every other teams post stage procedure. The evidence being that Sky are far superior than every other team in this year’s race. So it’s put down to this one simple element? I do wonder what evidence there is to back this up. That this is the one factor for their success? And that it provides such amazing results? I’m sure it’s out there somewhere. Or do we just believe it without the facts?

 

[The Real GFY]

Riders have always warmed up on their trainers before races, you know that, you little kidder.

We are talking about warming DOWN, after each ROAD stage.
You know, when riders are fecked, and just want to sit down in the bus.

Allegedly Garmin and Radioshack have been doing it for years now, so you should know this.

Here's a question for you - so what?

 

[Sigmund]

Listen it's all PR spin...just like it was for USP...It's just a shame the fans are gullible enough to swallow it and that no journos are out there saying look this is clearly bulls***, just like Allen Lim with his Beet juice last year, where two over 35 year olds decimated the TOC.

Well, the benefits of beet juice have scientific backing. Actually, one of the best studies in sports physiologi I have seen.

Personally I have upped my consumption of beets and spinach. Seems Popeye was on to something (and so was my mother).

 

[armchairclimber]

1. There is no such thing as lactic acid. There's lactate and there is acid. The extensive warm down helps to counter the excessive acidification of the muscles.

2. There is nothing at all to stop a 4k specialist training to be a superb GT racer. The major change would be to develop the aerobic pathways more fully. This is a process that takes years. During that time a change in muscle composition would be expected...less white fibre and more red % -wise. The lactate threshold would improve....allowing long hard efforts, even on mountains. Sky's answer to hard attacks has been to shut them down slowly, aerobically...without going into the red....which is what happened to Cadel.

3. There would be weight loss...but an improvement in power to weight ratio, regardless of whether lean muscle mass was lost.

4. Training through the winter...and doing the right kind of training would yield results during the racing season (again, aerobic pathways).

5. Limiting racing and training more would yield improvements too...especially as the cellular damage caused by the acidification of the body during racing can be limited. Training can be focused on what is appropriate without the distraction of trying to win a race.

6. Altitude training can replicate some of the benefits of blood doping...especially if timed correctly.

7. As someone rightly said above, endurance athletes...and especially ultra/fell/mountain runners take years to mature. It's not at all unusual to find 40 year olds at the sharp end.

In short, over the last few years the abominable SKY team have simply gone about doing what needed to be done to get a talented rider like Wiggins into the yellow jersey. They've done a Man City/Chelsea....bought a good team and applied the best current sports science. They have also, this year, had things/luck go their way....up to now that is.

Regardless of history, regardless of how much it looks like US Postal, there is nothing at all, not one single thing, that points towards doping.

The Murdochs are shysters but they have been massively, massively burnt by past mis-demeanors this year. There is no way they would invest so much in winning the tour to be revealed as cheats....they are evil, not feckin stupid.

 

[blackcat]

armchair climber

this fits in the two words, two syllables per, of our past friend arbiter, more commonly known as banprocyling, or acronym'ed on clinic forum to BPC

not 2012, July 2011. I thought it was this year. Well, my case is weakened

 

[Franklin]

1. There is no such thing as lactic acid. There's lactate and there is acid. The extensive warm down helps to counter the excessive acidification of the muscles.

Unscientific hogwash.

2. There is nothing at all to stop a 4k specialist training to be a superb GT racer.

You sure are the expert. I'm glad Sky is the first to have pioneered this.

3. There would be weight loss...but an improvement in power to weight ratio, regardless of whether lean muscle mass was lost.

Uhm... that would work if he also lost bones. As his skeleton is going to weigh more in percentage to his bodyweight it stands to reason that his power to weight ratio would increase.

4. Training through the winter...and doing the right kind of training would yield results during the racing season (again, aerobic pathways).

Most pro's take a two week break and then get started again. The idea that pro's do nothing till they hit Paris-Nice is preposterous and a red herring.

And once again science here indicates that there is nothing wrong with taking a two week break.

6. Altitude training can replicate some of the benefits of blood doping...especially if timed correctly.

Revolutionary! Surely that is something nobody thought of before!.

7. As someone rightly said above, endurance athletes...and especially ultra/fell/mountain runners take years to mature. It's not at all unusual to find 40 year olds at the sharp end.

No matter the statistical evidence.

Regardless of history, regardless of how much it looks like US Postal, there is nothing at all, not one single thing, that points towards doping.

Ah more handwaving.

I like to point ut that you are high on the believe line and low on the facts

Facts have the tendency to be right whereas believe is rather hit and miss.

The Murdochs are shysters but they have been massively, massively burnt by past mis-demeanors this year. There is no way they would invest so much in winning the tour to be revealed as cheats....they are evil, not feckin stupid.

If you believe this tripe I reckon you still do your daily donation to Livestrong.

 

[131313]

The Murdochs are shysters but they have been massively, massively burnt by past mis-demeanors this year. There is no way they would invest so much in winning the tour to be revealed as cheats....they are evil, not feckin stupid.

rather than take the time to shoot holes in most of what you said, which would be like taking candy from a baby, I'll just mention that this sound incredibly similar to "he just got over CANCER, he'd have to be CRAZY to dope after that". Quite funny, actually!

I was however glad to hear that Sky invented winter training. Cool!

 

[Franklin]

And let's be really sharp about this Tenerife drivel.

Altitude training means Live High, Train Low. It's complete nonsense to think that riding up that mountain is a good idea (muscle damage ahoy). Live High, Train Low can be mimicked much more effectively by using an altitude tent.

If anything the Tenerife trainings camp seem rather old-fashioned. It's one of those touted marginal gains that are very dubious upon closer inspection.

Why go to Tenerife if it's an expensive, inefficient way of training? Why do people like Wiggins and Vinokourov swear by this training method?

 

[armchairclimber]

Unscientific hogwash.



You sure are the expert. I'm glad Sky is the first to have pioneered this.



Uhm... that would work if he also lost bones. As his skeleton is going to weigh more in percentage to his bodyweight it stands to reason that his power to weight ratio would increase.



Most pro's take a two week break and then get started again. The idea that pro's do nothing till they hit Paris-Nice is preposterous and a red herring.

And once again science here indicates that there is nothing wrong with taking a two week break.



Revolutionary! Surely that is something nobody thought of before!.



No matter the statistical evidence.




Ah more handwaving.

I like to point ut that you are high on the believe line and low on the facts

Facts have the tendency to be right whereas believe is rather hit and miss.



If you believe this tripe I reckon you still do your daily donation to Livestrong.

You clearly have no idea what is scientific or otherwise.
I haven't claimed that ANY of the above is revolutionary. Quite the opposite. Most of that training has been practiced for decades.

-----edited by mod------

 

[blackcat]

Sky is owned only 38% by News.

News shareholding by Murdochs is about 5%, albeit they have class 1 voting shares that gives them controlling stake plus stacking board.

The division of News and Fox Entertainment, is all about having a second crack at BSky and giving Cameron enough plausible reason, to approve their bid interation II.

And Murdoch is gonna die within a decade, so this will not be a scion bastion when the shareholders eviscerate the entrails.

my % numbers might be out by immaterial number

 

[Franklin]

You clearly have no idea what is scientific or otherwise.
I haven't claimed that ANY of the above is revolutionary. Quite the opposite. Most of that training has been practiced for decades.

LIVESTRONG? You're a clown.

Oh boy, does all the debunking and pointing to the facts strike a nerve?

Seriously, having taken down your arguments about why Sky is better and still looking at the pesky facts about flipflopping (wiggo), false statements (Kerrison), smoke and mirrors (Leinders) it's looking quite a mess for a true believer.

We don't know what's the truth, but there are a lot of worrying pointers. Handwaving is quite frankly ***, whereupon a health scepticism is indeed the sane thing.

 

[131313]

And let's be really sharp about this Tenerife drivel.

Altitude training means Live High, Train Low. It's complete nonsense to think that riding up that mountain is a good idea (muscle damage ahoy). Live High, Train Low can be mimicked much more effectively by using an altitude tent.

I'll have to disagree with you here. While the research is equivocal, it seems that staying at real altitude is a better bet than using a tent. When you add into this the fact that it's pretty tough to actually sleep in a tent, and the fact that it's recommended to spend at least 14 hours per day at altitude, staying at a place like Teferife about 2.2-2.5M above sea level is pretty much ideal.

I'm fully aware that this has been used as a smoke screen by some riders, and "Tenerife" has become synonymous with visits to Ferrari's camper, but if I had unlimited resources and raced in Europe, it would be on my list of places to train, for sure.

 

[Franklin]

While the research is equivocal

Marginal gains at best and if you add the inefficiency of having to go up and down that mountain before and after training I'm disputing any real measurable positive effect.

Also notes that the cutoff seems to be four week blocks (no more, no less). As far as I understand that's not how Wiggins uses it. Once again it seems at best a psychological thing.

 

[Sigmund]

And let's be really sharp about this Tenerife drivel.

Altitude training means Live High, Train Low. It's complete nonsense to think that riding up that mountain is a good idea (muscle damage ahoy). Live High, Train Low can be mimicked much more effectively by using an altitude tent.

If anything the Tenerife trainings camp seem rather old-fashioned. It's one of those touted marginal gains that are very dubious upon closer inspection.

Why go to Tenerife if it's an expensive, inefficient way of training? Why do people like Wiggins and Vinokourov swear by this training method?

Back in the 80s quite a lot of people believed in the train high - live high principle. I do not think it has been coclusively determined which approach is superior. In fact some new studies question whether there is any benefit to altitude training at all (I believe it was mentioned here at the CN forums).

That being said, I would imagine the specificity principle still holds so that if you want to be good at racing at altitude you should train at altitude.

I can think of many very good reasons for going to Twnerife to train and none of them has anything to do with doping. Personally I have been going to Gran Canaria but quite a few of the cyclists I have met there say Tenerife is much better. Cheaper, more routes to choose from, possible to both climb and ride on flat terrain, better food and (slightly) less touristic. I now realise I was misstaken, all these people were just visiring doping doctors!

 

[Dr.Sahl]

And let's be really sharp about this Tenerife drivel.

Altitude training means Live High, Train Low. It's complete nonsense to think that riding up that mountain is a good idea (muscle damage ahoy). Live High, Train Low can be mimicked much more effectively by using an altitude tent.

If anything the Tenerife trainings camp seem rather old-fashioned. It's one of those touted marginal gains that are very dubious upon closer inspection.

Why go to Tenerife if it's an expensive, inefficient way of training? Why do people like Wiggins and Vinokourov swear by this training method?

Altitude training is overrated and even more used to mask your BV than actually training haha.

 

[thehog]

Listen it's all PR spin...just like it was for USP...It's just a shame the fans are gullible enough to swallow it and that no journos are out there saying look this is clearly bulls***, just like Allen Lim with his Beet juice last year, where two over 35 year olds decimated the TOC.

Using a turbo features on eHow website 2 years ago. Sky were smart enough to use Google and find out this revolutionary new technique. .

 

[armchairclimber]

Oh boy, does all the debunking and pointing to the facts strike a nerve?

Seriously, having taken down your arguments about why Sky is better and still looking at the pesky facts about flipflopping (wiggo), false statements (Kerrison), smoke and mirrors (Leinders) it's looking quite a mess for a true believer.

We don't know what's the truth, but there are a lot of worrying pointers. Handwaving is quite frankly ***, whereupon a health scepticism is indeed the sane thing.

===== edited by mod =====

The facts are Wiggins is winning.
SKY are strong.
In your crazy world you can extrapolate all sorts of crap from that but you have no evidence, let alone proof, that they are doping to get there. You have even conceded that what they are doing is nothing new.

And, by the way, Lactic Acid does not exist within the human body.

 

[Robert21]

There is nothing at all to stop a 4k specialist training to be a superb GT racer. The major change would be to develop the aerobic pathways more fully. This is a process that takes years. During that time a change in muscle composition would be expected...less white fibre and more red % -wise. The lactate threshold would improve....allowing long hard efforts, even on mountains.

Most of the stuff I have read shows that one's performance is maximised in quite a short time after undergoing full-time training, with only increases in efficiency giving (marginal) gains over the long term. VO2 max is likely to begin to plateau after only 3-4 months of full-time training, and to be as high as it ever will be after only 12 months, whilst the lactate shuttle system can show decreasingly significant improvements over 3 years or so. Anyone who has been a pro for a couple of years will almost certainly have already have reached their natural ceiling for such measures. Boardman and Keen did a lot of research on this and estimated that once you have made it to the pro level you might, if you are lucky, get another 5 watts a year, and even this cannot be sustained.

Unfortunately (for all those who are naturally less gifted) genetics are key, which is why in the pre-Epo and blood-doping era, most Tour champions showed their potential at a very early age, often winning a major stage race, or even the Tour, the first time they took part.

 

[andy1234]

Using a turbo features on eHow website 2 years ago. Sky were smart enough to use Google and find out this revolutionary new technique. .

Your actual knowledge of pro cycling lags somewhere behind the experience you have gained from Google and mail order videos

Making stuff up doesn't count you know?
Someone will keep coming along to correct you hopefully.

 

[armchairclimber]

Most of the stuff I have read shows that one's performance is maximised in quite a short time after undergoing full-time training, with only increases in efficiency giving (marginal) gains over the long term. VO2 max is likely to begin to plateau after only 3-4 months of full-time training, and to be as high as it ever will be after only 12 months, whilst the lactate shuttle system can show decreasingly significant improvements over 3 years or so. Anyone who has been a pro for a couple of years will almost certainly have already have reached their natural ceiling for such measures. Boardman and Keen did a lot of research on this and estimated that once you have made it to the pro level you might, if you are lucky, get another 5 watts a year, and even this cannot be sustained.

Unfortunately (for all those who are naturally less gifted) genetics are key, which is why in the pre-Epo and blood-doping era, most Tour champions showed their potential at a very early age, often winning a major stage race, or even the Tour, the first time they took part.

The anaerobic system can be trained quite quickly but developing endurance/aerobic system takes a very long time.

 

[Franklin]

You're like a scared child, afraid of the bogeyman. Just leave the light on at the top of the stairs.

The facts are Wiggins is winning.
SKY are strong.
In your crazy world you can extrapolate all sorts of crap from that but you have no evidence, let alone proof, that they are doping to get there. You have even conceded that what they are doing is nothing new.

And, by the way, Lactic Acid does not exist within the human body.

The nerve was hit quite hard now is it? And another thing... really stop before it becomes to embarassing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid

Faith doesn't change facts... it really doesn't.

 

[thehog]

Your actual knowledge of pro cycling lags somewhere behind the experience you have gained from Google and mail order videos

Making stuff up doesn't count you know?
Someone will keep coming along to correct you hopefully.

Sure Andy1234. Warming down post race was invented by Sky in 2012. Got it. You’re 100% correct. Without a doubt. I believe you. Its fact I tell you.

 

[function]

Kerrison says there are no secrets, and that it is quite simple. Even something as apparently simple as the warm-downs offer a clue. “I think everyone can see,” says Kerrison, “that we’re prepared to do things that other teams aren’t prepared to do.”

- Yes never seen any other teams doing warm-downs! Seriously? They all do it.

Apparently they don't all do it;

https://twitter.com/marcopinotti/status/186852365947781120

Cooling down on rollers after the finish doesn't make you Wiggins.